T Nation

A good one. wat to do when diet/cutting stalls.

K.

you are cutting for that BF you will need that thing they measure CPU chips width with to check your abdominal skinfold.

all goes well for some time, still not there.

suddenly

it stops.
the fat is not dropping anymore.
what to do?

Scenario A:
you decide you’ve been eating too much. you cut down on your cals/up your workout volume
results: overtraining, metabolism halted, lean mass lost… horror!

Scenario B:
you decide you’ve been eating too few cals. you up your cals.
results: since your metabolism is down allready and you are still sub maintanance, it won’t go up, you still don’t lose fat, maybe you get fatter!

Scenario C:
You say goodbye to your lofty goals and begin to eat big. trying to get some mass while youre at it.

Is this the only way?
ANY way to jump start a diet?

Scenario D: You reevaluate your caloric sources at your current intake; not all calories are created equal. Most people can make immediate progress just by changing what they eat instead of how many calories they eat.

Scenario E: Take scenarios A&B, but give them positive outcomes. The glass CAN be half full, you know.

Scenario F: Change your supplementation regimine once all the other components are in place.

Ok eric
Let’s say scenario D is covered as can be. the only choise is to go low carb - high carb or vice versa but will it help?

What are the positives that can happen in A and B? can you detail? why would the fat loss start anew?

F:let’s say Im allready on some thermo formula. what beside that can be so dramatic to jump start the fat loss again? (let’s say were not using an androgen or a steroid)

also, there is an obvoius difference if you are stuck on 7% or on 20%.
let’s assume were the lean option.

10x

S-man.

Let’s see if I can cover these one-by-one:

Q: “Let’s say scenario D is covered as can be. the only choise [sic] is to go low carb - high carb or vice versa but will it help?”

A: Yes. Low carbs does not necessarily mean that catabolism will start right away! In fact, if you’ve conditioned your body to burn fat appropriately, you’ll not only get continued fat loss, but perhaps even some LBM gain via a) increased training energy and b) increased endogenous T levels (assuming fat intake increases).

By automatically assuming that “low carbs=impaired performance and catabolism,” you’re completely undermining everything that Poliquin, Alessi, and DiPasquale have preached and used with great results. Plus, you’re blowing sunshine up all the food-guide pyramid fatties’ asses!

Q: “What are the positives that can happen in A and B? can you detail? why would the fat loss start anew?”

“Scenario A:
you decide you’ve been eating too much. you cut down on your cals/up your workout volume
results: overtraining, metabolism halted, lean mass lost… horror!”

A: Not true; this undermines the very simple concept of “dieting.” Millions of people can eat less and exercise more and make great progress. Granted, things get a bit trickier when you’re lean. However, given appropriate caloric intake (and in many cases, cycling) and nutrient timing, it can be done. Additionally, higher volume programs can prove valuable in these situations (as I’m experiencing right now with a GVT style program and 2100 calories, plus timed carbups) via increased GH, plus the novel stimulus from a lower volume program.

“Scenario B:
you decide you’ve been eating too few cals. you up your cals.
results: since your metabolism is down allready [sic] and you are still sub maintanance, it won’t go up, you still don’t lose fat, maybe you get fatter!”

A: You could also upregulate thyroid hormones and leptin and kickstart your metabolism, not to mention your training intensity. More T, GH, and better thyroid function=better gains.

Q: “F:let’s say Im allready[sic] on some thermo formula. what beside that can be so dramatic to jump start the fat loss again? (let’s say we’re not using an androgen or a steroid)”

A: Fish oil, yohimbine, HotRox, r-ala (better nutrient partitioning), supplemental fiber, green tea, caffeine (if not included already), T2, T2Pro.

I am in the same position, and am about to take deca, but what kind of diit should i be on to loose fat? I’ve read that deca can be used for cutting, but how much should i be eating to get the best results?

So Eric,
If im stalled on a low carb diet?
go to high carb?

Also, let’s say I am smart and allready using all the compounds you mentioned.

this leaves us with the task of determine if it’s A or B or C.(C being stopping dieting which we wont)

which is better if, lets say u actualy evaluate everything and(being YOUR carefully considered plan , naturally) find nothing wrong with your cals or anything?

Help me here. the fat was dropping and then it stopped. there are several reasons why it should happen in the middle of a diet

1: metabolic shutdown
2: overtraining
3: drop in intensity due to dieting and thus a drop in cal expenditure
4: anything else?

obviously each one demands a different solution…

thoughts?

takman,

I’m not going to flame, as it’s not very productive (although I’m sure a few others will jump in). A few things:

  1. You should not be using deca if you do not know how to spell “diet,” let alone plan one.

  2. Adding androgens into the mix changes everything; glute-spanker effectively eliminated them from the discussion several posts ago.

  3. This is your first post. I seriously doubt that you have read ANY of the articles in the weekly mag, which has been around for five years. 5 years x 52 weeks x roughly 5 articles per week = 1,300 article and a crapload of knowledge. This doesn’t even take into account the countless posts in the forum archives; check them out, too. In short, take advantage of these resources before you resort to deca; they’ll only make you more informed when you do get to your cycle.

  4. I think that you’ll find Chris Shugart’s article, “Dawg School: The Bodybuilder’s Hierarchy of Needs” very interesting. Basically, you shouldn’t even consider supplements (steroids included) until your diet, lifestyle, and training are completely in order.

  5. Put the deca in the back of your supplement cabinet and max out your genetic potential before you even consider using it.

We’re all here to help each other; you just need to do your part by getting informed instead of looking for the easy way out. Best of luck.

Takman, I’m thinking about using some crystal meth for cutting. I heard that’s good.

Seriously, do you have any idea what you’re doing? Put down the syringe and pick up some light reading…perhaps all of the previous issues. Get your diet in order, get your knowledge together, and get your head on straight before you even think about using steroids.

As for a cutting diet, perhaps you could chop a leg off? There are about a dozen diets on this site. Read and learn. Or you could just do a lot of crystal meth and not worry about what you’re eating. I hear the crack whore look is in this year in Paris.

Thanks for some of your comments guys, but, respectfully, I wasn’t looking to be patronised, I am extremely reverent of all you guys with in the know, but was looking for advice along the lines of calories and nutritional splits. I am not familiar with the layout of the site as yet, as, as you noted, this is my debut on here, and as such I am having some navigation difficulties in acessing the information I am looking for. I appreaciate the adive to look further into this site as a resource, I now fully intend to spend some time looking through the site and its catalogues of information.

Let me tell you a little about myself. I’ve been training for nearly 2 years now, not competitievely, but none the less I have been bulking up for over 18months and am very pleased with my gains in size and strength. I have spent the last 10 weeks dieting (apologies for the typo of diet in my previous post, I clearly offended a pedantic guy…) with decent results, but have shed muscle along with fat. I have looked into Deca, and done some quite basic ground work (this i accept is not ideal, but this is only the start), and have discovered that it is useful in fat removal, but the only diets i have read about are for bulking whilst using deca, which it not my desire. I know that you suggest I learn more about any chemical before I use it, but the reason i’m posting here is because from the little I have seen, then boards are frequented by very knowledgable people, whose wisdom I might be able to learn from. Believe me, my questions were part of my research, I am not so naive as some of you guys think.

I would genuinely appreaciate any advice on what sort of diet I should adopt if I decide to use deca, or on what sort of results I might expect, or any positive/negative experiences with this drug at all. Thanks guys.

Fair enough. Two years still isn’t a very long time, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. As a frame of reference, though, I’ve got about 3 under my belt, and juicing isn’t in the near future for me. I’ve often heard that 5 years natural training before using steroids is the generally accepted guideline, although very few people adhere to it. That said, welcome aboard; I look forward to your contributions.

As far as your questions are concerned, I recommend you check out Cy Willson’s article, “Steroid Dieting.” Also, do a forum search for the “New Article: Cheater’s Diet EDT by Joel Marion and Charles Staley.” Both should provide good starting points. Basically, androgens will allow you to take calories much lower without compromising LBM.

Best of luck.

Generally accepted minimumguidelines for using steroids:

Five years of good, knowledgeable and consistent training under your belt, combined with a good, knowledgeable and consistent dietary attack.

Age: At least 26 years old.

And just for your reference, there are a lot of us “pedantic” types here who value proper spelling and punctuation. (In fact, if you hang around a while you’ll notice that the most knowledgeable people are also the best spellers.) So please proof your posts.

Hope this helps.

G-S,

I wouldn’t say to just go to a high carb diet from your low carb diet. Rather, I’d go with one of two options:

  1. Keep macronutrient ratios exactly the same, but increase calories by a few hundred for a week or so. Or, you could try calorie cycling (2 days at a deficit for every one at maintenance).

  2. Try something along the lines of what Alessi offered in MD3 or his old Iron Dog column. Lower calories for 4-5 days per week and then carbup. Personally, I’m having great success right now with a 2-on, 1-off, 2-on, 1-off, repeat split. On training days, I’m at <75g carbs (50g of which are taken post-training). On my first off-day, I’ll take in 70g carbs at breakfast, then go low-cal P&F all day afterwards (total of 100g carbs for the day). On my other off-day (every 6th day), I’ll take in an boatload of carbs over my first four meals (about 300g total for the day). I’ve dropped fat and gained LBM during this time without any aerobic exercise or HIIT other than a low intensity walk on the TM 4-5 days per week.

Without knowing what your training looks like, I tend to think that it’s the metabolic shutdown scenario, but I’d need to see your training schedule to be sure.

I don’t necessarily agree with being 26 years old as a guideline for using steroids, but I don’t think this is the thread to discuss it. I have I just wanted to point out one thing because Doc T and E.C. have brought out great points for dieting so I don’t feel a need to chime in, but if you consider deca to be a good cutting drug, or a good drug in general I think you need to do a bit more research.

If you’re sure you balanced out your macronutrients correctly, you got your diet, sleep, and workout maxed out, if you’ve tried adjuststing calories / changing workouts and yet have had no success for a week or two, I believe that’s when it’s time to use a supplement to give you that extra kick in the pants.

Thanks eric

more details:

weight 177 lb.

fat mass= 14.5 lb.
bf%=8.25
Training - 5 RR&D-like sessions per week about an hour each. + 3 20HIIT + 3 20moderate aerobics.

calories - used to be 2200 with 2-3 carb meals directly after training. I keep a food log and my food choices (I feel) where the best I made ever and thus the great initial progress.

once stalled upped my cals by ~300 and changed to 2 carb meals, one during strength training and one after, as JB recomeneded.

supps: hot-rox, methoxy. R-ala is not available here but working on it.

lost something like half a pound of fat every day! for my first 18 days. last 5 days nada. I did miss a workout but…

Im trying to stay very attuned to my body and make the changes when they are needed but Im (a little) lost right now as to why I’m stalling.

My question is also a general one as this seems to be the diet “sticking point” and once I’ll get over it I’ll nail that diet.

You could take a step back and assess what you have been doing.
Maybe you screwed up?
Maybe time to ease up have a couple of weeks of and start again take the diet a bit slower, adjust cardio, diet/supp parameters etc.
Maybe you havent stalled, you could just be impatient,
any photos? progress reports?

Fat loss stalls because leptin levels drop off, so refeed