A Good Crack!

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Nothing gets a child’s attention and with greater effect than restricting his freedom. Hitting a child is of only limited use because it reinforces a negative feedback; in stead, it is necessary to use a positive feedback to show a child that he is behaving acceptably. Kind of like how we treat our pets.[/quote]

So they learn to fear losing their freedom. Same difference.

[quote]Ouiser wrote:
So they learn to fear losing their freedom. Same difference.[/quote]

But they do not learn to equate violence with respect. I am not sure if we could call it fear of being “locked up” either. I would equate fear with anxiety for the unknown – which violence can bring.

There were times when I got spanked only after waiting in my room for a few hours. The thing is that the spanking never hurt me but I hated knowing it was going to eventually happen. Like a person on death row I suspect. That is some cruel punishment.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Ouiser wrote:
Kids need to learn respect, and if takes a smack on the backside to teach them that, so be it. Talk is great if the kid will listen, sometimes you just need to get their attention.

Children do not learn respect through the use of violence. They learn fear.

Children must first learn what the notion of respect means; if you “punch” a child and tell him to respect you he will think violence begets respect. However, if you explain what respect is and how one can gain and lose respect and always act in accordance with that principle then it will go much further to the child’s understanding of it.

Nothing gets a child’s attention and with greater effect than restricting his freedom. Hitting a child is of only limited use because it reinforces a negative feedback; in stead, it is necessary to use a positive feedback to show a child that he is behaving acceptably. Kind of like how we treat our pets.[/quote]

I saw a very interesting video with a German psychiatrist explaining that you expect to much from a child trying to argue with it.

They do not get it because they cannot get it. Discussing it just makes you feel good, the child needs mindless, endless repetition.

Don´t lie, don´t steal, clean up your room, etc…

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Ouiser wrote:
Kids need to learn respect, and if takes a smack on the backside to teach them that, so be it. Talk is great if the kid will listen, sometimes you just need to get their attention.

Children do not learn respect through the use of violence. They learn fear.[/quote]

You are so full of shit you stink.

First off, corporal punishment is not violent. Never has been Never will be.

Second. Unless you are beating your kids - abusing them - there is no way that the fear they have is unhealthy.

They should fear the consequences of wrongdoing. Like orion said, you are not going to be ale to reason with them. If you think your kid knows anything about anything, you are wrong.

Honestly, and no offense, you should really try to get your own house straight before you go off on your communistic/anarchist/libertarian bullshit rants. I mean, you can’t even get your kids to mind - how in the fuck is one supposed to take you for anything but a fucking sham?

Orion makes a good point about kids not even having the reasoning ability to respond to anything really complicated till they are older.

And getting back to the fear thing. I am arguing under the assumption that fear = anticipation of a consequence that would be best avoided.

Positive reinforcement is fraught with its own problems. Expecting a reward for just basically being a good person is really causing some weird outcomes for new hires coming out of college these days.

[quote]orion wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Ouiser wrote:
Kids need to learn respect, and if takes a smack on the backside to teach them that, so be it. Talk is great if the kid will listen, sometimes you just need to get their attention.

Children do not learn respect through the use of violence. They learn fear.

Children must first learn what the notion of respect means; if you “punch” a child and tell him to respect you he will think violence begets respect.

However, if you explain what respect is and how one can gain and lose respect and always act in accordance with that principle then it will go much further to the child’s understanding of it.

Nothing gets a child’s attention and with greater effect than restricting his freedom. Hitting a child is of only limited use because it reinforces a negative feedback; in stead, it is necessary to use a positive feedback to show a child that he is behaving acceptably. Kind of like how we treat our pets.

I saw a very interesting video with a German psychiatrist explaining that you expect to much from a child trying to argue with it.

They do not get it because they cannot get it. Discussing it just makes you feel good, the child needs mindless, endless repetition.

Don´t lie, don´t steal, clean up your room, etc…

[/quote]

One doesn’t necessarily need to have a discussion with one’s children about morality; it’s hard enough to have one with adults and get one’s point across. The best way I could describe it is what I was taught in the USMC – lead by example.

Children do imitate what they see and what is worse they are mostly incapable of making distinctions of when certain behavior is appropriate or not.

This is why the use of both positive and negative reinforcement are necessary. I prefer limiting the amount of negative because I do not want to reinforce a negative feedback.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Honestly, and no offense, you should really try to get your own house straight before you go off on your communistic/anarchist/libertarian bullshit rants. I mean, you can’t even get your kids to mind - how in the fuck is one supposed to take you for anything but a fucking sham?
[/quote]

Yes, you are right those little anti-social heathens must be taught a lesson. How dare they throw rocks and get into little kid trouble. Tonight we play the “Wheel of Punishment” and I will fix their wagon good.

I do not discuss politics with my children – nor my wife.

[quote]Ouiser wrote:
There’s a theory floating around, not sure where I heard it first, that the lack of basic respect/courtesy/what have you, comes back to not being able to punch somebody when they deserve it.

A situation arises where someone is being an ass and all you can do is walk away for fear of getting sued. Meanwhile the ass learns nothing but is likely to be an ass again in the future.

[/quote]

“Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.”
–Robert E. Howard

I’m sure he wasn’t the first to come up with the idea, but this was the first I ever heard of it and it’s the best way I’ve heard it put.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Honestly, and no offense, you should really try to get your own house straight before you go off on your communistic/anarchist/libertarian bullshit rants. I mean, you can’t even get your kids to mind - how in the fuck is one supposed to take you for anything but a fucking sham?

Yes, you are right those little anti-social heathens must be taught a lesson. How dare they throw rocks and get into little kid trouble. Tonight we play the “Wheel of Punishment” and I will fix their wagon good.

I do not discuss politics with my children – nor my wife.[/quote]

You can’t seem to get them to mind, or you wouldn’t be asking for parenting advice.

I’m not talking about discussing anything with your family. You can’t manage your own house, but seem to think we need your help here.

If you can’t get your shit right at home, don’t come here and act like you have any answers. It just seems rather pathetic.

No offense.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
You can’t seem to get them to mind, or you wouldn’t be asking for parenting advice. [/quote]

That is a problem only once they learn they have free will. Then it’s time to teach them about consequence.

I wasn’t asking because there is a problem. I was just looking for other options because I don’t like the idea of hitting after a certain age. I didn’t realize teenagers were spanked. You have to admit that is kind of infantile.

Plus, it is hard for us to send our child to Karate to be told that violence is only for self defense just to have one of us use violence…kind of a mixed message, you know?

Yeah. Fuck yeah. Beat your fucking kids. Keep them off my front porch, and away from my car.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
rainjack wrote:
You can’t seem to get them to mind, or you wouldn’t be asking for parenting advice.

That is a problem only once they learn they have free will. Then it’s time to teach them about consequence.

I wasn’t asking because there is a problem. I was just looking for other options because I don’t like the idea of hitting after a certain age. I didn’t realize teenagers were spanked. You have to admit that is kind of infantile.

Plus, it is hard for us to send our child to Karate to be told that violence is only for self defense just to have one of us use violence…kind of a mixed message, you know?[/quote]

Your ignorance just get’s sadder and sadder.

I don’t really care what you think of corporal punishment.

My son is an honor student, member of the student council, plays varsity football on a top ten ranked team, and is one of the nicest, most well adjusted young men in town.

My daughter is a varsity cheerleader as a Freshman, has never made a B, And has already been approached by colleges to come and cheer for them.

Yeah. It’s pretty fucking infantile to have harsh consequences for breaking rules.

I can tell you that I have never had a conflict with doing what was right for my kids.

Worrying about what the fucking judo teacher says is far more infantile than anything I have done. But I don’t doubt that you are paralyzed with indecision.

No offense.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
rainjack wrote:
My daughter will take a whipping, and never bat an eye. But take away her phone, computer, or ipod, You might as well have sent her to prison. My son can do without almost anything and do it standing on his head.

But he would do anything to avoid a paddling from dad. The only thing I can take away from him that comes close to swats is his 360, and his pickup.

I in no way mean the below criticism as a jab to your method of parenting but only raise these point because I am interested in human behavior and education and would like your feedback.

“Whipping” a 17 year old is in fact infantilization. One can spank a 4 year old and in some cases it can be effective to the 10 year old but after puberty children should be treated as adults would.

Punishment is not for punishment’s sake alone but rather to instill a sense of consequence; yes hitting an adult may work to instill this but at a cost of making them think it is how to one deals with conflict – not to mention he will always feel like a child in the parent’s presence.

There then comes a point when the child should understand the notion of consequence and that he will have to make a restitution for his actions to the person he wronged. That is how it works in the adult world. Childhood is merely practice for it.

Taking transportation and any means of a social life a child might have is probably the best thing there is as far as punishment for anti-social behavior goes.

All I really know is that “timeouts” do not work as a punishment.

When you say shit like, “this is not a jab”, and then prceed to lecture me on how I am fucking up my son - well - it’s a fucking jab.

Your ignorance of both the situation, and the subject at hand is appalling.

There are consequences for every action. Your stupidity in thinking that there are age limits on discipline is laughable. I have never used a fucking timeout, and you seem to think that it would work.

Kids are not small adults. They are lumps of clay that need to be molded and hardened. [/quote]

Children are human beings. They are not clay. Humans can be reasoned with and educated because we are capable of thinking. Clay can’t think because it is lifeless. [quote]

Sometimes that can be done quite easily, other times you have to use drastic measures. [/quote]

If beating on children worked you would only need to do it once and they would learn the lesson. Violence teaches the wrong lessons. [quote]

My dad beat the shit out of me when I was 23. I took a paddle and tanned my teenaged son’s ass. Why? You do not raise your hand to a woman. You damn sure don’t raise your hand to your mother. [/quote]

Why would he not think that is okay when all his life Daddy has been teaching him it’s okay to use violence on those who are smaller and weaker. Violence in the family is learned behaviour and it sounds like you and your father have been good teachers. [quote]

But yeah - I could see where sitting him in the corner would have taught him a very valuable lesson.

If you ever think I need your less-than-stellar parenting advice again, please reconsider and shut the fuck up.

No offense. [/quote]

[quote]Ouiser wrote:
There’s a theory floating around, not sure where I heard it first, that the lack of basic respect/courtesy/what have you, comes back to not being able to punch somebody when they deserve it.

A situation arises where someone is being an ass and all you can do is walk away for fear of getting sued. Meanwhile the ass learns nothing but is likely to be an ass again in the future. [/quote]

That would apply to peer relationships. But adults beating on kids teaches a different lesson. What it teaches is if you are bigger and stronger you can have your way through violence. [quote]

Kids need to learn respect, and if takes a smack on the backside to teach them that, so be it. Talk is great if the kid will listen, sometimes you just need to get their attention.

[/quote]

Fear is not respect. An adult losing their self control and resorting to violence is not something to respect.

Sifu, you’re assuming that any time corporal punishment is used it is used in anger and/or without self control.

Any time my father used it, and any time I’ve known responsible parents use it, he always sent me to my room for a while to to think about what I’d done. He always came up after he had calmed down and taken the time to decide how he was going to punish me. It was always rational.

To beat your kids in anger is abuse. to do it deliberately after thought is simply discipline.

I never really had any problems understanding this, even as a young child. I had a very clear understanding of what and why this was happening, why I’d done something wrong, and what the long term consequences would be.

I don’t know why it’s so difficult for some of you guys to understand this. It’s not like I was beaten bloody, or I was ever confused about what I’d done or if my father loved me or whatever. That’s pop psychology bs.

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Children are human beings. They are not clay. Humans can be reasoned with and educated because we are capable of thinking. Clay can’t think because it is lifeless. [/quote]

Who said they were not human? I never did. And they are much like clay. It is the responsibility of the parent, not to placate the child, but to train him, and sharpen him so that he/she does in fact turn into a decent adult.

Once again, you use a word I never used. There is a difference between beating a child, and corporal punishment. And no it doesn’t take only once.

Corporal punishment is not violent. It is a method of discipline.

You are just making shit up, and it is very evident that you have no fucking clue what you are talking about.

[/quote]Why would he not think that is okay when all his life Daddy has been teaching him it’s okay to use violence on those who are smaller and weaker. Violence in the family is learned behaviour and it sounds like you and your father have been good teachers. [/quote]

My dad beat my ass when I was a consenting adult. He never beat me when I was a child. My son tried the same tactic I did, and I gave him 5 swats with a paddle. Hardly violent. Hardly a lifetime of anything.

You are losing ground quite quickly. You haven’t a clue about the subject at hand, and it shows.

I certainly hope you are childless. If not, I pity the life you are creating for your children.

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Fear is not respect. An adult losing their self control and resorting to violence is not something to respect. [/quote]

Are you naturally this fucking stupid, or are you being this fucking stupid on purpose.

No one has said a fucking thing about hitting anyone in anger or violence except for you and lifty.

You two are stone fucking wrong. You never scold a child in anger, whether it is with a paddle, or if it is with your mouth, or if you are just to lazy to do either, and stick them in time out.

What a fucking idiot.

Sometimes kids need a good crack across the ass. Seen lots of screw ups in teaching all these years, often the ones who had no firm discipline at home. You could talk until you’re blue in the face; they’d just laugh and keep doing whatever.

When a kid threatens to kill me, he deserves several giant swats. Then his dad should do it more AND HARDER when he got home.

That being said, I stopped spanking my kids years ago. I always felt terrible afterwards and just a good yell stopped the behavior anyway. I guess if that didn’t work I’d get frustrated and wallop their asses.

Isn’t a swat on the ass a little more embarrassing than it is painful? I remember vividly horsing around with my daughter and nephews and they took bigger bumps then.
Big swing, make noise, don’t “hurt” them…Sting and startle.