T Nation

A Frickin Lack Of Chivalry


#1

Especially younger guys just don’t seem to behave as gentlemen around women.
Y?!

I was raised to hold the door, umbrella etc., to say “ma’am” and speak to every woman I encounter with the same respect as I would for my mother.

And not only do I see this chivalrous behavior in men declining, but also ladylike behavior in women.
Example, at my own dad’s viewing at a funeral home, a wife sitting on her husband!/ lap in the foyer. Crap like that. I damn near busted a blood vessel, but I’m too classy to make a scene in such a situation. Not the case with many others.
My son is 26 and he gets it thank God. But what has happened? Is it because people use a keyboard so much that they don’t know how t behave in person?

Just GRRRR it is sooo annoying


#2

What is anerics?

I agree with nothing. What happened is you are old.


#3

“Anerics” would be a typo in the subject line that this old man missed. Thx for the alerting question.

I’m getting old is wat happened huh? Ok if that’s how u see it you’re entitled to the opinion. Just be sure to respect your elders :P.

I think the typical behaviors are a result of fathers not being men. If my son were ever to think about disrespecting his mother, he knew exactly what response he’d get from me.
Also, many kids see the father treating the mom like crap and follow the poor example.
That doesn’t make it ok though, just think that’s how some of it happens. Behaviors are cyclical … it doesn’t justify a damn thing though. I mean if my dad abused me, it wouldn’t have been justification for me to abuse my kids and perpetuate the cycle.
It’s just past time men earn the title again. Being male doesn’t make one a man and certainly not a gentleman.
Maybe if boot camp was required for high school graduates - not conscription,just if you fail it then no diploma, repeat until you don’t fail. Hell I dunno, anything.


#4

Personally I’ve had to feel my way through Chivalry. In America I never quite know how a woman will take it, so I start small (holding the door) and see how she responds. Usually it’s fine. I lived in China for nine years and they really like chivalrous men. In America I’ve usually been friends with women before dating them so I already had a pretty good idea of their expectations.


#5

Good thinking :slight_smile:
Since there’s a ring on my finger I’m not typically taken as hitting on ladies just because I’m nice. Just have to keep the ring on so they know "all this"is off the market haha!

Seriously though, even if I were single, it’d be exactly the same. If a lady doesn’t want me to be nice she has to say so. Otherwise I’ll treat her like I would my own mother.

Here’s a good thing that happened to my son. He started a new job and was waking into the building while two ladies were. He held the door, one commented “He’s holding the door for us!” Later that day he found out the lady who commented was the owner. Good move on his part there right?!

Then I think about what if my wife was (for some reason) out alone with her arms full trying to get through a door…if a man nearby didn’t offer to hold it I’d be quite disappointed. Odds are, given her looks, someone would but I’m just sayin


#6

You were raised as a mangina?


#7

I doubt he was raised the same way as you. Don’t worry, your balls will drop one day.


#8

This hardly deserves a response but you get it anyway I guess.

Oh ha :stuck_out_tongue:

No certsinly not. Was raised to be a chivalrous gentleman. We’re the ones who score the good women and can keep them…,


#9

A white knight then.

White knight: A man who stands up for a womens right to be an absolute equal, but then steps up like a white knight to rescue her any time that equality becomes a burden.


#10

My balls dropped just fine and I keep them plump as Cabernet grapes with a little HCG.


#11

Old fashioned Chivalry is BS IMHO…treating people as individuals is much better and far more rational.


#12

I honestly thought we hold the door open for them etc because we don’t treat them as equal.


#13

I dream of a world where doors open for everyone in the same way. I went to the high end of town and the doors opened themselves! Can you believe that? Have you ever seen this in the slums or in the offices of any female dominated industry?

This is unjust, another example of the 1% living at the expense of the rest of us.


#14

I create a safe environment for my lady wherein she can be independent, but knows that if she falls down I’ll pick her up.

BTW, ladies are equal in most things, sometimes all - physical strength usually not - but everyone likes to have some cushion. If I fall emotionally she can pick ME up.

It’s a team thing. We got each other’s backs and wherever one is weak the stronger one helps the other.

We’ve been together 31 years, married 28, and that should suffice as proof that my being chivalrous works out.
Maybe if younger men learned this the divorce rate would go down.

We don’t consider divorce as an option and are too stubborn to give up on each other.

In principle and often in practice this is how we do. I’m just the physically stronger otter in our case:


#15

You don’t need to justify any of this to a guy who thinks opening a door is a measure of anything.

I was going to reply to his post but I figured he might be mentally retarded and I didn’t want to seem cruel.


#16

I was raised the same way. As we are roughly the same age, it might be a generational thing. There are young women who are genuinely offended by this behavior, as they see it reinforcing gender stereotypes, and as a manifestation of patriarchy.


#17

I gotta say it - gender stereotypes ain’t all bad

There it’s out!

Of course now someone willl maje an accusation that I’m a chauvinistic patriarch supporting old coot. Oh well, they’re entitled to their opinions as much as I am, but maybe they’ll just run to a “safe space” and behave like good little kids.

It also may be a geographical thing. Like my son, who was born in the Deep South, always having been required to address his mother’s friends as “Miss <insert name here.” and that carrying over into addressing all ladies with whom he wasn’t of equal age as Miss.

Hell, sometimes I still do it but women who are sentir to me are slowly fading from existence :confused:
My wife is almost a year younger than I, but I’ve always afforded her the same respect, mixed with generosity that sometimes was part of the bigger intentions I had for her, mostly those for when the lights are out lol

The whole “gender equality” thing is a mess IMO. As humans we ARE all equal of course, but whatever. I’ll not espouse my views cause I don’t want to argue with those who don’t realize I’m right!!


#18

It’s an interesting topic, Chivalry. I mean in the most literal sense it just means “horse soldiery”. Of course it has evolved into something much more. In truth, there is no record of any formalized ‘Code of Chivalry’ and much of what we think we know about the subject is filtered through the lense of poets talking about chivalry centuries after the knights had passed. In other words it’s largely based in fiction.

Still, I see it basically in the sense of an attitude of service toward God and Country, martial prowess, honour, courtesy and respect to all, and dedication to protect the weak and uphold peace and civil order. There is a built in humility and reverence for hierarchies. Importance is placed on knowing your place in those hierarchies and acting accordingly.

Holding doors, having good manners etc. is an element of this as it is or at least once was part and parcel with courtesy. However romantic idealism over the years has over-emphasized the importance of this facet of the whole IMHO, particularly in regard to treatment of women. It’s a pleasant notion but on its own not really the core of what Chivalry is/was.

I tend to be a door-holder where it makes sense. My wife enjoys this. Not every woman does. I try not to make a big thing of it. I see the passing of those social niceties as a very sad thing and try to do my part to keep them alive in small ways.

However Chivalry, to me, has as much or more to do with that attitude of service and being willing and able to do violence in defense of a person, a home, a nation or a set of ideals. The passing of this is sadder still as it is necessary for a civil society.


#19

Good thoughts…

There actually was a code of Chivalry. Google “The Song of Roland.”

The stuff was spread across England mostly by troubadours singing about French knights.
It covers everything u mention and then some.
A study of medieval knights would maybe be a good thing for our kids.


#20

I am familiar with The Song of Roland. Great reference. However, as I alluded to, it’s a romantic poem written some 300 years after the events it describes as opposed to a specific Law or even a contemporaneous historical record.

It does contain a Code, but I have never really come across much evidence that it was The Code, as in a standardized, formally codified set of standards and practices as carried out by actual knights.

A few hundred years after that the Duke of Burgundy set down another Code. More a list of virtues than specific directives.

This is kind of what I mean by the lack of a standardized Code.

Still, very much worth being familiar with. Thanks for bringing it up. Good discussion.