T Nation

A Domestic

I’ve never hidden my support of our Military, and this is an area that I hope I can garner your support on. (I think that the Forum has an amazing group of knowledgeable people).

There is a push in Congress and in the Executive branch to get our Military involved in the messy game of “Domestic Security”.

To me, that is neither their job nor their training. They are trained to respond IN KIND to aggressive actions and threat of life. To kill (if necessary) if threatened.They are also already spread too thin throughout the world.

“Domestic” enforcement (ask the average street cop) is wrought with so many “landmines” of Civil Liberties, individual rights and “Camcorder Vigilantes”, that you often get the idea that the public wants these men and women to die rather than defend themselves. (I continue to find it strange that there is not nearly as much “public outcry” when a cop is killed as there is when someone is merely injured in police custody…am I missing something?)

Look folks. I FIRMLY believe in individual rights, the rule if law and in Civil Liberties. I just don’t think that it’s appropriate to get our young men and women in the Military bogged down in this mess. It simply is neither their job nor their training.

So…don’t “write your Congressman or woman” (They never read that stuff). Go through your local and state leaders (who CAN get an ear with a Congressmen or woman) to not get our young men and women involved in this quagmire.


The military is meant to defend the U.S. I live on the Mexico border (Brownsville, TX) and used to live in San Diego, Ca. The Border Patrol is not getting the job done. Our borders are not even close to being secured. We need some type of guest worker program to allow Mexicans to come over and work a harvest legally and then return to Mexico, and we need someone CAPABLE of defending the borders doing it. I’m still in the the Army reserves, and I’d much rather be sent to gaurd the border in Arizona than being sent to Bosnia to play rent-a-cop.

Agreed. Actually, is is illegal for the Feds to use U.S. Military personnel in ANY civilian law enforcement capacity. Kind of makes you wonder what the hell all those Guardsmen are doing in the airports, doesn’t it?

Will you give a shit about your civil rights if you are dead? NOT. Either create a “civilian” armed service or train the military and make it their job. Minimum wage people are not getting the job done!

doog: Good point! I had actually left Border Patrol out of the thread because that is a slightly different animal in many ways. The military MAY have a place, but the training may have to be different and more specialized…sort of a “Delta Force” for our borders. In other words…a Border force that takes from all branches and receives special training for that specific role.

Just a thought…

I would like to comment on this in great detail, but right now I am preparing some materials of a meeting with the Subcommittee on National Security, Veteran Affairs and International Relations. Which has jurisdiction over foreign and domestic anti-terrorism efforts on Tuesday.
After the meeting, I will happily tell you all everything I am allowed too.
In the mean time, please look-up the following Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 and the KGB.
Best of Luck.

Well, I am back. Spend most of Tuesday before The Subcommittee on National Security, Veterans Affairs and International Relations - Christopher Shays, Connecticut, Chairman. This was a chance for “us” local folk to tell the big boys in Washington what we needed from them to do our jobs. And we did, unfortuately the boys from state where also ther staying that everything should be passed through them.
We are the first responders and in many cases we will be the second wave of victims. Just like the the “World Trade Center”. All we ask from our government is to lay out a clear plan to the states and us, to assist us in providing the training and equipment to the first responders and to provide the be protection possible by fully supporting the efforts of the government agencies charged with protecting our country.
So please write your local representatives, your congressman, and senators. Register to vote and become part of the process.
Best of Luck.

I don’t think the average U.S. citizen would accept seeing soldiers policing city streets, simply because they’re not used to it. It’s accepted in other countries around the world (Israel being a prime example) because a. it’s needed, and b. the people are accepting of it. U.S. citizens cherish their freedom and I don’t think, even after the savagery of September 11th, that the peope of our country would want the military performing traditional civilian police functions.

I’m glad Older Lifter mentioned Posse Comitatus already, I was about to freak out again over you morons who just can’t wait to throw away everything you take for granted. Try researching >why< our laws are in place before some of you make assumptions about why they should be changed. Maybe you won’t seem like the stereotyped “my brain is as small as my dick looks next to my hyooge quads” bodybuilders after that.

well, Our military is used for policing actions around the world thanks to Clinton. If you look at just some of the subtle changes in the training of our military, you can see that we are being trained for possible policing action (Look at the Marine Corps Martial Arts. While fighting usually needs to be tweaked do to changing times, there are non-lethal tactics for crowd control). However, and I will look up the referenced material mentioned by Older LIfter (thank you for you informative post)I think it would be wrong to put the military in charge of homeland security for the simple reason that it’s like putting a band-aid on a shot gun wound. I firmly believe that our society has become so weak and soft since the falling out of public belief in the military due to the Tet Offensive. Since World War Two, and especially since the abolition of the draft, America has gotten fatter (yes, not just the draft, but I believe part of it), weaker, less disciplined. WIthout being required to grow up, we have a whole society of people without a sense of purpose or honor, of kids with no sense of order. And this is coming from someone that is still relatively young, so I know. We need to have the draft, we need people to know what it’s like to grow up. we need people to know what it’s like to be responsible for their actions. That goes for our leaders as well. Since America has become the sole Superpower, we’ve had our hands in too many things. Every regime we help to overthrow for whatever selfish reason (and intertwined with patriotic reasons sometimes) we get bit in the ass. Saddam, Bin Laden, Iraq. I know we need strategic points of land, but we need to look at the long term implications. Just my point of view, sorry for ranting.

National Guard and Coast Guard, being under control of state governors, are exempt from the Posse Comitatus Act (the same thing that makes it illegal for Active duty Military to be used for polcing actions. Thanks for the info again OL).

SHIT! You’re absolutely right. Just got caught with my britches down.

However, I still feel that homeland security would better be tended to by "civilian" law enforcement. I'm wary of anyone that could be comandeered by the feds (that would include the National Guard-hey, shit happens) acting as cops.

I'm not trying to be paranoid. I just don't trust the government.

“well, Our military is used for policing actions around the world thanks to Clinton.”

The Korean Conflict started in the 1950's, Clinton was in grade school and can not be held responsible for international policy at that time.

i concur that i would be scared too if i saw military personel policing the streets. The border is as mentioned entirely different and i wouldn’t mind military there. I cant really stand most “conservatives” or “liberals” for that matter. But the things comin out of Ashcrofts mouths are pretty damn scary like military police the streets and the spy on your neighbor concept. Thankfully congress is rather resistant to facism.

Good lord. There is no way you can compare battling communism in the Korean conflict with “police actions” in Haiti or Bosnia or Somalia.

Doogie is right. We could use the military to patrol our southern border, and maybe we should. This use would have to be very carefully proscribed. Remember, for them to be guarding the borders, the guns have to be pointed AWAY from the US. I certainly wouldn’t have a problem with that. The border patrol is hopelessly outmanned here. I honestly don’t know if this use would violate the Posse… law, and I would be concerned if it did. The only thing scarier than having an open border in time of war against terrorists is having the military act as police. They are mostly kids.

Korea was part of a global effort to contain and ultimately defeat communism. To a large part it succeded. What I think the other poster was referring to is Clinton’s willingness to spend American lives to police regional conflicts – even to the point of putting US troops under international control. Thankfully, he has recently volunteered to fight (30 years late) (and what a joke --“please pay attention to me!”) and hopefully he will die a horrible death on the battlefield.

I’m no fan of Bill Clinton, but during his presidency the world saw perhaps some of the greatest change of the last 100-150 years. The world became a much more “global community” or “international comunity”, where the U.N. now has much more influence than it once did. The country had just come out of “Desert Storm” when Slick Willie took over and I think there was pressure, since we did it so successfully during that operation, for the U.S. to take the lead in international conflicts when they arose. First as peace promoter and peacemaker, of course, but if necessary, as leader of a coalition to pursue peace militarily. The U.N. was always used as cover so the U.S. couldn’t be characterized as a “bully”. Remember when the crisis in the Balkans hit and mass murders were taking place, the so-called “European Union” was nowhere to be found. Only after the U.S. took some steps to become involved in the conflict, did European countries get involved. And Yugoslavia was part of Europe, right in their own backyard. Shame on those Euro-pee-pee’s.

I wonder…if they shot to kill people trying to get across the border. Maybe people would be a little bit more hesitant to try to get across.

There are a couple major factors regarding immigration that will mean there will probably be no changes in border guarding for years to come. One – politicians, both Democrat and Republican, like to make concessions to Latin American illegal immigrants because that means they might win more future voters. Two – There’s a reason why it’s incredibly difficult to immigrate to the USA legally, especially if you’re European, but Latin American immigrants cross the border with near impunity and are even given vast benefits, including medical care, free of charge. Namely, the agricultural industry. What teenage high-school graduate born in America is going to go picking fruit in some field? As long as consumers demand vast quantities of cheap produce, the agricultural industry will employ latin american illegal immigrants, and the agricultural industry has tremendous influence over our political system.