T Nation

A-Dex vs. A-Sin

I have noticed people using A-sin more lately. I have come up with some questions that I have not been able to answer through my reading.

Does A-sin have less of a negative impact on HDL then A-dex?

It has often been said that A-dex is somewhat self limiting in its estrogen control so as to not drop est levels too low. Does A-sin have similar properties or can it bring est levels down to dangerous levels like letro can?

Would it be better to run a small dose of a SERM and an AI on cycle instead of just an AI to minimize the neg effects on HDL? Maybe something like .15-.25 A-dex and 10-15 nolva?

also, what is a comparable dose from A-dex to A-sin. such as .25 A-dex is similar to ??? A-sin.

thanks for your input.

[quote]firestanggt wrote:
I have noticed people using A-sin more lately. I have come up with some questions that I have not been able to answer through my reading.

Does A-sin have less of a negative impact on HDL then A-dex?

It has often been said that A-dex is somewhat self limiting in its estrogen control so as to not drop est levels too low. Does A-sin have similar properties or can it bring est levels down to dangerous levels like letro can?

Would it be better to run a small dose of a SERM and an AI on cycle instead of just an AI to minimize the neg effects on HDL? Maybe something like .15-.25 A-dex and 10-15 nolva?

also, what is a comparable dose from A-dex to A-sin. such as .25 A-dex is similar to ??? A-sin.

thanks for your input.[/quote]

1] Yes A-sin has less impact on blood lipids like HDL than A-dex; much less if any.

2] A-sin is in between the effeectiveness of A-dex and Letro for estrogen suppression. If the standard dose of A-dex reduce estrogen by 50-60% as most studies suggest and letro is in the 98% neighborhood, then A-sin is around 70-85%.

3]Now that 85% is with 20-25mg of the product. Running 5-15mg of A-sin would likely give you the same degree of estrogen control as .25mg of Adex

Uh I’m a little behind?

What does A-Sin stand for when written out fully. ALso if someone would wanna pm me as to any research chem suppliers who have it at a decent price that would be swell.

[quote]WideGuy wrote:
Uh I’m a little behind?

What does A-Sin stand for when written out fully. ALso if someone would wanna pm me as to any research chem suppliers who have it at a decent price that would be swell.[/quote]

Exemestane aka aromasin

[quote]WideGuy wrote:
Uh I’m a little behind?

What does A-Sin stand for when written out fully. ALso if someone would wanna pm me as to any research chem suppliers who have it at a decent price that would be swell.[/quote]

Aromasin (exemestane) Chemone has it if memory serves me for like 70$ for 60 ml at 25mg/ml. You will have it in like 2-3 days.

Hhhm never heard of it called that? Or maybe I have and working outside like a dog in this insane heat is just gotten to me. Nap time!

Thanks Bro.

thanks sapasion

i will start a cycle pretty soon here and after alot of reading i decided to go with a-sin as my ai an article by anthony roberts on isteroids.com was what leaned the balance towards a-sin you should read it very informative he has an excellent pct on there as well

[quote]lu79 wrote:
i will start a cycle pretty soon here and after alot of reading i decided to go with a-sin as my ai an article by anthony roberts on isteroids.com was what leaned the balance towards a-sin you should read it very informative he has an excellent pct on there as well[/quote]

uh oh…

[quote]chillain wrote:
lu79 wrote:
i will start a cycle pretty soon here and after alot of reading i decided to go with a-sin as my ai an article by anthony roberts on isteroids.com was what leaned the balance towards a-sin you should read it very informative he has an excellent pct on there as well

uh oh…

[/quote]

hahahahaha…could be a long thread right here.

Does anyone have an reference on A-Sin having less effect on blood lipids than Adex? I would think that even if it directly causes less harm that indirectly through reduced estrogen that it would cause the same dependant on how low estrogen was brought with the possibility of more damage since it can lower estrogen more.

Adex at low levels and without lowering estrogen too much causes very little effect on me, I would switch to A-sin in a heartbeat though if it had less effect, especially at lower estrogen levels since when I bring it too low things get thrown off.

I guess my point is that I have always felt that AI’s effected blood lipids dependant on their lowering of estrogen and not directly, I could very well be wrong as it has always just been my assumption.

If you read the data then yes it does suggest A-sin is the least harsh on cholestrol levels and what not. I had naturally low HDL and high LDL, something like 30HDL and 165LDL [this is not good]. Thru products like Lipitor and dietary changes I improved my cholestrol significantly. My best ever #'s were HDL 55 and LDL 106.

Now this is not pure science but here it goes. Last year, I did a 12 week cycle of 500mg Cyp and 300mg Deca per week with a dbol kickstart of 50mg for 4 weeks. I ran liquid A-dex at .5ml ED from day 1. It was my first and only A-dex experience. I ran A-dex thinking the dbol at that dosage plus the Test and Deca might be a good thing. Six weeks before my cycle I had HDL of 51 and LDL of 112. A month into the cycle, just about when I finished the dbol, I got my cholestrol checked again mid cycle mind you. Something didn’t feel right in my body, despite the Deca my elbows and shoulders were hurting so I started to think I had dropped too much estrogen. Long story short, after 4 weeks of A-dex at .5mg ED my HDL was 39 and LDL was 133. Admittedly, that might not totally be attributed to the A-dex but nevertheless my HDL was down 24% and LDL had risen 20% in 4 weeks. I stopped the A-dex at once thinking without the Dbol maybe I didn’t need it and I didn’t want my cholestrol dropping anymore. So like I said, I was on cycle A-dex free for another 8 weeks and PCT for 5 weeks. I had my cholestrol checked maybe a week after PCT or 14 weeks or do after stopping A-dex. My numbers then were HDL 44 and LDL 126. Which is to say they had not improved much at all. Now we can debate what the Test did to them or what the Nolva did to them. But the main drop came on the A-dex.

The other cycle I did last year was also Deca and TestC. For this one I did something a bit odd. It was also a 10-12 weeker [10Deca and 12 Cyp]. When I stopped Deca aka week 10 I started A-sin and ran it then next 7 weeks. SO basically I ran it with my last 2 weeks of Test, the week I was off before starting PCT and the first 4 weeks of my PCT. Using 6.25mg ED of A-sin I experienced none of the joint aches I did on A-dex. Now admittedly I was just finishing 10 weeks of Deca which no doubt was in my system for most of the time I was on A-sin. However, its the cholestrol numbers that I think are relevant. Before this cycle my HDL was 49 and LDL 116. After cycle it was HDL 51 and LDL 126. Now again, there are other factors not mentioned here. But, my HDL went up!! and my LDL only raised by 8%.

Again, not pure science but IMO A-sin is not as harsh on lipids in my body as A-dex. This last cycle I could not get A-sin pre-cycle so I decided to go without an AI even though I could have gotten A-dex. I ran some proviron and it was good enough. I think maybe my body does not aromatize that much of the extra Test. This might explain why the A-dex actually hurt me. Equally true the A-sin dosage I used it maybe only 1/4 of what some recommend; whereas .5mg of A-dex is perhaps double what I could have taken.

All in all I’m a bigger fan of A-sin than A-dex and I never have and hopefully never will try letro.

Damn that was long sorry

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

[quote]sapasion wrote:
If you read the data then yes it does suggest A-sin is the least harsh on cholesterol levels and what not. I had naturally low HDL and high LDL, something like 30HDL and 165LDL [this is not good]. Thru products like Lipitor and dietary changes I improved my cholesterol significantly. My best ever #'s were HDL 55 and LDL 106.

Now this is not pure science but here it goes. Last year, I did a 12 week cycle of 500mg Cyp and 300mg Deca per week with a dbol kickstart of 50mg for 4 weeks. I ran liquid A-dex at .5ml ED from day 1. It was my first and only A-dex experience. I ran A-dex thinking the dbol at that dosage plus the Test and Deca might be a good thing. Six weeks before my cycle I had HDL of 51 and LDL of 112. A month into the cycle, just about when I finished the dbol, I got my cholesterol checked again mid cycle mind you. Something didn’t feel right in my body, despite the Deca my elbows and shoulders were hurting so I started to think I had dropped too much estrogen. Long story short, after 4 weeks of A-dex at .5mg ED my HDL was 39 and LDL was 133. Admittedly, that might not totally be attributed to the A-dex but nevertheless my HDL was down 24% and LDL had risen 20% in 4 weeks. I stopped the A-dex at once thinking without the Dbol maybe I didn’t need it and I didn’t want my cholesterol dropping anymore. So like I said, I was on cycle A-dex free for another 8 weeks and PCT for 5 weeks. I had my cholesterol checked maybe a week after PCT or 14 weeks or do after stopping A-dex. My numbers then were HDL 44 and LDL 126. Which is to say they had not improved much at all. Now we can debate what the Test did to them or what the Nolva did to them. But the main drop came on the A-dex.

The other cycle I did last year was also Deca and TestC. For this one I did something a bit odd. It was also a 10-12 weeker [10Deca and 12 Cyp]. When I stopped Deca aka week 10 I started A-sin and ran it then next 7 weeks. SO basically I ran it with my last 2 weeks of Test, the week I was off before starting PCT and the first 4 weeks of my PCT. Using 6.25mg ED of A-sin I experienced none of the joint aches I did on A-dex. Now admittedly I was just finishing 10 weeks of Deca which no doubt was in my system for most of the time I was on A-sin. However, its the cholestrol numbers that I think are relevant. Before this cycle my HDL was 49 and LDL 116. After cycle it was HDL 51 and LDL 126. Now again, there are other factors not mentioned here. But, my HDL went up!! and my LDL only raised by 8%.

Again, not pure science but IMO A-sin is not as harsh on lipids in my body as A-dex. This last cycle I could not get A-sin pre-cycle so I decided to go without an AI even though I could have gotten A-dex. I ran some proviron and it was good enough. I think maybe my body does not aromatize that much of the extra Test. This might explain why the A-dex actually hurt me. Equally true the A-sin dosage I used it maybe only 1/4 of what some recommend; whereas .5mg of A-dex is perhaps double what I could have taken.

All in all I’m a bigger fan of A-sin than A-dex and I never have and hopefully never will try letro.

Damn that was long sorry[/quote]

I think that any decent data that you find is for women on cancer therapy who are going for levels of E that are lower than you are after and smaller doses by far. In those [female]cases, the effect on lipids is also probably from low E and not a direct effect of the drug. So the more effective drugs, lower E levels, will have more lipid effects. So if you go after the same target E levels with any AI, your lipid effect will probably be the same. And the target E levels for most of us BB or TRT guys will not have any negative effects. If you are after 5% BF, then you are probably creating a risk of lipid problems.

You CANNOT take data from women’s cancer oriented dosing and extrapolate to men taking much smaller amounts.

I lowered my E2 from 37 to 22 with 1mg adex/wk. My cholesterol went from 206 to 202. HDL remained good. If you are on gear and need 2 or 3 times the adex to get to that E2 level, which would not be an expected dose, then I think that your lipids would be fine.

This is where femara can be a problem, as some taking very small amounts can have E2 levels that are very low. The response is not very predictable. A-dex is self limiting. Typical E2 levels for young male normal subjects is around 17 with 1mg/day. 2mg/day has the same result. 17 is not a dangerous level. For guys on cycles, anything short term would be of limited consequences in any case.

And with female cancer data, most of the women are post-menopausal and their E levels have tanked before they got onto AI. Guys on gear have more estrogen potential than those women.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
With that in mind what do you think of 12.5mg of A-sin EOD during a 12 week, 500mg weekly Test E cycle?[/quote]

Because A-sin’s half life is purported to be 27 hours, I’d go with 6.25mg ED instead of 12.5mg EOD if that is your desired dosage. In fact, 12.5mg ED might even be a decent dosage for some who need it. I don’t need a whole bunch of estrogen control myself though

[quote]sapasion wrote:
pushharder wrote:
With that in mind what do you think of 12.5mg of A-sin EOD during a 12 week, 500mg weekly Test E cycle?

Because A-sin’s half life is purported to be 27 hours, I’d go with 6.25mg ED instead of 12.5mg EOD if that is your desired dosage. In fact, 12.5mg ED might even be a decent dosage for some who need it. I don’t need a whole bunch of estrogen control myself though[/quote]

What am I missing here? From a TRT point of view, most guys will get a huge benefit from 1mg/wk of anastrozole. Guys on gear might use 2 - 3.5mg/wk. Anastrozole works well, has a 36 hour half live and seems to simply be more cost effective.

[quote]KSman wrote:
sapasion wrote:
pushharder wrote:
With that in mind what do you think of 12.5mg of A-sin EOD during a 12 week, 500mg weekly Test E cycle?

Because A-sin’s half life is purported to be 27 hours, I’d go with 6.25mg ED instead of 12.5mg EOD if that is your desired dosage. In fact, 12.5mg ED might even be a decent dosage for some who need it. I don’t need a whole bunch of estrogen control myself though

What am I missing here? From a TRT point of view, most guys will get a huge benefit from 1mg/wk of anastrozole. Guys on gear might use 2 - 3.5mg/wk. Anastrozole works well, has a 36 hour half live and seems to simply be more cost effective.[/quote]

but that’s where things get tricky or at least options available as they are pretty darn close to the same price now days. I been thinking that I’ll use A-Sin instead of Letro for heavy estrogen control as I tried A-sin for 2 weeks (switched from Letro to Asin mid-cycle) and did not notice the tiredness and low libido as I do from letro and almost felt like it increased my aggression and sex drive (though couldn’t say it was the Asin).

I’ve just been wandering if there is any advantage to low-dose Asin over Adex if price was not a variable. I guess I’ll have to try and get that empiracal data that Sap has and see for myself - my guess is that they should be about the same.

[quote]KSman wrote:
sapasion wrote:
pushharder wrote:
With that in mind what do you think of 12.5mg of A-sin EOD during a 12 week, 500mg weekly Test E cycle?

Because A-sin’s half life is purported to be 27 hours, I’d go with 6.25mg ED instead of 12.5mg EOD if that is your desired dosage. In fact, 12.5mg ED might even be a decent dosage for some who need it. I don’t need a whole bunch of estrogen control myself though

What am I missing here? From a TRT point of view, most guys will get a huge benefit from 1mg/wk of anastrozole. Guys on gear might use 2 - 3.5mg/wk. Anastrozole works well, has a 36 hour half live and seems to simply be more cost effective.[/quote]

I was merely addressing the question asked regarding EOD vs ED. For those who like A-dex they by all means should use it. In my experience, my body seemed to be more tolerate of A-sin. Yes it is per se more expensive than A-dex. But, to me its like saying Tren Ace is more expensive then EQ.

If one were purely considered with price some letro at say .25mg twice a week would probably do the trick as well

[quote]TheBeat wrote:
but that’s where things get tricky or at least options available as they are pretty darn close to the same price now days. I been thinking that I’ll use A-Sin instead of Letro for heavy estrogen control as I tried A-sin for 2 weeks (switched from Letro to Asin mid-cycle) and did not notice the tiredness and low libido as I do from letro and almost felt like it increased my aggression and sex drive (though couldn’t say it was the Asin).

I’ve just been wandering if there is any advantage to low-dose Asin over Adex if price was not a variable. I guess I’ll have to try and get that empiracal data that Sap has and see for myself - my guess is that they should be about the same.

[/quote]

Thats truly the only way to do it. Its like taking Tren. Some guys swear it is the best thing out there. Others do not have quite as positive an experience.

A-sin is far and away the most expensive of the 3 main AI’s. But as aforementioned, Tren is the most expensive gear out there as well.

I’m not trying to sell anyone on A-sin as the best AI to be used always instead of A-dex or letro. But what I said in the posts above is what I have learned

I’m glad to see the direction this thread has headed. Like sapasion, I’ve always had low HDL levels (even with very consistent cardio,) and relatively higher LDLs (though lots of fish oil, nuts and polyphenols have lowered it significantly). I basically inherited my father’s genetics for heart disease. And like TheBeat, I just assumed a simple correlation with estrogen levels (natural or SERM-aided) and a favorable lipoprotein profile.

So based on that assumption, I considered for my first cycle the (somewhat outdated) low-dose SERM-throughout protocol instead of an AI, and I only kept an AI (adex) on hand as a last resort.

Well, I ended up needing the AI after all and have been pleased with its effects on water retention and libido at 0.25mg ed. But I am concerned with how it has affected my lipid profile and will assess the “damage” before beginning PCT.

So this anecdotal evidence regarding aromasin is very compelling for me personally, and I will definitely try it out next cycle and share my numbers here.