T Nation

92 Year Old Woman Gunned Down

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/11/21/D8LHSRR01.html

All I can say is damn, good shooting grandma! Poor old bat probably had a bottle of ephedra or something. I’m sure she had it coming for violating the law like that. <–sarcasm

mike

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061123/ap_on_re_us/elderly_shootout

To my understanding, they were trying to serve a search warrant on her residence, not neccessarily on her person. They were looking for a young male, that had sold drugs to an undercover officer earlier. They served a knock warrant, which requires themselves to identify themselves as police.

The main thing that concerns me is the fact that they were plain-clothes officers, in a bad atlanta neighborhood. So, even thought they would have said police, they wouldn’t have looked like police. She shot one in the leg, one in the arm, and one in the face.

I am going to take the unpopular stand, and defend the police. They had a valid warrant, and correctly followed all the proceedures. They were being shot at, and 3 of them were wounded. Chances are, they would have been killed had they not defended themselves.

It does not matter your age, or your gender, a smith and wesson is just as deadly in grannies hands as it is in a 30 year old males hands. It is very sad that the woman had to die. But its not like the police deviated from the standard operating procedures in any way. Except the fact that they were in plain-clothes. It would depend on the departments rules on serving warrants wether they should be in uniform or not.

If someone, police or otherwise, tried to force there way in my home, when I did not have anything, I would have done the same thing. (the police did find drugs afterwards, but chances are they belonged to the 30’s john doe, who is really the one at fault here.

[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/11/21/D8LHSRR01.html

All I can say is damn, good shooting grandma! Poor old bat probably had a bottle of ephedra or something. I’m sure she had it coming for violating the law like that. <–sarcasm

mike[/quote]

My hat is off to her, she definitely did go out with her boots on…

Great shooting for a surprised 92 year old…

I’m only sorry that the woman was killed by those cops. When a 92 year old woman cannot be safe in her own home something is getting really frigged up in this country. And when the ones who are threatening her safety are policemen that’s just a bit scary.

The cops have no excuse. You just don’t make mistakes like that.

[quote]Edders wrote:

The cops have no excuse. You just don’t make mistakes like that.

[/quote]

It wasn’t a mistake. They had the right house where drugs were sold from earlier in the day.

[quote]doogie wrote:
Edders wrote:

The cops have no excuse. You just don’t make mistakes like that.

It wasn’t a mistake. They had the right house where drugs were sold from earlier in the day.[/quote]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/22/AR2006112201812.html

I am going to take the 92 year old woman’s side here because it is stated that they they basically said, “We’re police!!” and then kicked her door down while not in uniform. This is the same issue I have with cops in those new unmarked cars handing out speeding tickets. Why should someone believe (especially in certain neighborhoods where the risk of house invasion is very real) that a cop out of uniform is really a cop?

They kicked her door down. How many of you would simply assume it was cops who were breaking into your house no matter what they said if there were no uniforms?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Why should someone believe (especially in certain neighborhoods where the risk of house invasion is very real) that a cop out of uniform is really a cop?

[/quote]

Exactly.

[quote]carter12 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Why should someone believe (especially in certain neighborhoods where the risk of house invasion is very real) that a cop out of uniform is really a cop?

Exactly. [/quote]

Aren’t those the same neighborhoods in which people are most likely to warn all the bad guys as soon as a marked police car and a uniformed officer roll down the street?

[quote]doogie wrote:
carter12 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Why should someone believe (especially in certain neighborhoods where the risk of house invasion is very real) that a cop out of uniform is really a cop?

Exactly.

Aren’t those the same neighborhoods in which people are most likely to warn all the bad guys as soon as a marked police car and a uniformed officer roll down the street?[/quote]

No, those are the places where the cops aren’t trusted because they are often involved in some shady business themselves (read the articles on this issue that point to the police department already being under scrutiny for beatings in the area). I grew up in a neighborhood like that. It was common knowledge that calling them was a waste of time given the neighborhood we lived in. It would be two to three hours before anyone showed up, and that’s on a good day.

If the cops aren’t trusted to begin with, why would anyone trust them out of uniform simply because they say so?

Should it really be ok for cops to bust into your house out of uniform without showing proof of who they are? All they have to do is announce they are coming in?

The only reason this isn’t bigger news is because it hasn’t happened in neighborhoods where the occupants might actually have enough pull to fight back.

[quote]doogie wrote:

They had the right house where drugs were sold from earlier in the day.[/quote]

It was a mistake to kick in the door of an armed woman. It was a mistake to not identify yourself to the point where you don’t get shot in the face. But you’re right, they had the right house.

[quote]doogie wrote:
Edders wrote:

The cops have no excuse. You just don’t make mistakes like that.

It wasn’t a mistake. They had the right house where drugs were sold from earlier in the day.[/quote]

That might very well be the case. But, the two Policemen are still injured. And worse yet, a 92 year old woman who was no doubt innocent of any crime is met her end by being shot by Police.

I would say that a mistake was made, wouldn’t you?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
doogie wrote:
Edders wrote:

The cops have no excuse. You just don’t make mistakes like that.

It wasn’t a mistake. They had the right house where drugs were sold from earlier in the day.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/22/AR2006112201812.html

I am going to take the 92 year old woman’s side here because it is stated that they they basically said, “We’re police!!” and then kicked her door down while not in uniform. This is the same issue I have with cops in those new unmarked cars handing out speeding tickets. Why should someone believe (especially in certain neighborhoods where the risk of house invasion is very real) that a cop out of uniform is really a cop?

They kicked her door down. How many of you would simply assume it was cops who were breaking into your house no matter what they said if there were no uniforms?[/quote]

Exactly right Professor X box.

If the case were to be studied I’m sure that we would see multiple mistakes made by the Police.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

They kicked her door down. How many of you would simply assume it was cops who were breaking into your house no matter what they said if there were no uniforms?[/quote]

Doesnt that depend on what kind of activities are conducted in your house?

[quote]JD430 wrote:
Professor X wrote:

They kicked her door down. How many of you would simply assume it was cops who were breaking into your house no matter what they said if there were no uniforms?

Doesnt that depend on what kind of activities are conducted in your house?
[/quote]

How many times have you seen plain clothed cops break down someone’s door regardless of what they were doing inside? The issue isn’t that a warrant was served. The issue is that people are supposed to just THINK that regular people breaking into their house are cops and NOT protect their house from intruders.

This woman didn’t even sell any drugs to anyone. Some guy WHO DOESN’T EVEN LIVE THERE apparently did. Why not identify yourself with some ID before you break down the door? Why not at least be in uniform?

This was some major undercover sting op? Please. This 92 year old woman was the source of most of the drugs in her city? Bullshit.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
JD430 wrote:
Professor X wrote:

They kicked her door down. How many of you would simply assume it was cops who were breaking into your house no matter what they said if there were no uniforms?

Doesnt that depend on what kind of activities are conducted in your house?

How many times have you seen plain clothed cops break down someone’s door regardless of what they were doing inside? The issue isn’t that a warrant was served. The issue is that people are supposed to just THINK that regular people breaking into their house are cops and NOT protect their house from intruders.

This woman didn’t even sell any drugs to anyone. Some guy WHO DOESN’T EVEN LIVE THERE apparently did. Why not identify yourself with some ID before you break down the door? Why not at least be in uniform?

This was some major undercover sting op? Please. This 92 year old woman was the source of most of the drugs in her city? Bullshit.[/quote]

My point is that you often hear people registering surprise when the police bust through the door even though so much crack moves out of the home they should put in a drive thru.

Sure, I have seen plain clothes guys serve warrants(Im a cop, BTW). I’ve seen it because in my jurisdiction, they bring along uniformed patrol for exactly the reasons you cite above. However, I am not sure what you mean by having them identify themselves. Every time a no-knock warrant(meaning they bust down the door without any warning) is served, you will hear the officers shouting “Police. Search Warrant”. They should also be wearing raid vests with “POLICE”
evident on them unless they are in uniform(patrol or SWAT).

Trust me when I tell you it is in our interests to make it very clear to the people who we are. History has shown that people in drug homes are much less likely to resist if they know it is the police as opposed to rival drug dealers or gang members breaking in.

Does anyone know if the officers involved here entered the home without announcing who they are and if they were totally unmarked as law enforcement? If so, then it is a serious fuck up.

[quote]JD430 wrote:
Every time a no-knock warrant(meaning they bust down the door without any warning) is served, you will hear the officers shouting “Police. Search Warrant”. They should also be wearing raid vests with “POLICE”
evident on them unless they are in uniform(patrol or SWAT). [/quote]

But that DID NOT happen so why act as if you don’t understand why anyone would find fault in their actions? They announced they were cops…and then broke down the lady’s door and ran into the house. They didn’t wait for her to open the door or to check who it was. If that isn’t proper procedure, then quit covering for them as if it was. It sounds really fucked up to me and I am sure others are thinking the same thing.

Did you read the links posted in this thread? Yes, it is very fucked up.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
JD430 wrote:
Every time a no-knock warrant(meaning they bust down the door without any warning) is served, you will hear the officers shouting “Police. Search Warrant”. They should also be wearing raid vests with “POLICE”
evident on them unless they are in uniform(patrol or SWAT).

But that DID NOT happen so why act as if you don’t understand why anyone would find fault in their actions? They announced they were cops…and then broke down the lady’s door and ran into the house. They didn’t wait for her to open the door or to check who it was. If that isn’t proper procedure, then quit covering for them as if it was. It sounds really fucked up to me and I am sure others are thinking the same thing.

Does anyone know if the officers involved here entered the home without announcing who they are and if they were totally unmarked as law enforcement? If so, then it is a serious fuck up.

Did you read the links posted in this thread? Yes, it is very fucked up.[/quote]

Christ, you can be a surly bastard.

I read every article and Im not covering for anybody. How the hell you got that idea is beyond me, but I think Im starting to catch on here…

I told you how it could have happened. I dont know if the warrant was “no-knock” or not. If the officers announced their presence, they identified themselves, at least according to what the Supreme Court requires. If they had a “no knock” warrant, the door was coming down immediately as they announced their presence. If the warrant was not authorized as no-knock, they would have had to wait a “reasonable” amount of time, approximately 30 seconds to a minute for someone to answer the door. If no one answers, then the door comes down. That IS procedure, all the way up to the Supreme Court.

I dont know at what point this woman started shooting. You don’t either.
None of us know exactly how this went down, so it is probably prudent to reserve judgement until then. If you are saying it is “fucked up” simply because an elderly woman was shot, I dont understand what you are implying. If you open fire on the police, mistakenly or not, there has to be some expectation that there probably are going to be bullets coming back.

Of course, its tragic that she lost her life due to a mistake. Tell me what they should have done instead.

[quote]JD430 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
JD430 wrote:
Every time a no-knock warrant(meaning they bust down the door without any warning) is served, you will hear the officers shouting “Police. Search Warrant”. They should also be wearing raid vests with “POLICE”
evident on them unless they are in uniform(patrol or SWAT).

But that DID NOT happen so why act as if you don’t understand why anyone would find fault in their actions? They announced they were cops…and then broke down the lady’s door and ran into the house. They didn’t wait for her to open the door or to check who it was. If that isn’t proper procedure, then quit covering for them as if it was. It sounds really fucked up to me and I am sure others are thinking the same thing.

Does anyone know if the officers involved here entered the home without announcing who they are and if they were totally unmarked as law enforcement? If so, then it is a serious fuck up.

Did you read the links posted in this thread? Yes, it is very fucked up.

Christ, you can be a surly bastard.

I read every article and Im not covering for anybody. How the hell you got that idea is beyond me, but I think Im starting to catch on here…

I told you how it could have happened. I dont know if the warrant was “no-knock” or not. If the officers announced their presence, they identified themselves, at least according to what the Supreme Court requires. If they had a “no knock” warrant, the door was coming down immediately as they announced their presence. If the warrant was not authorized as no-knock, they would have had to wait a “reasonable” amount of time, approximately 30 seconds to a minute for someone to answer the door. If no one answers, then the door comes down. That IS procedure, all the way up to the Supreme Court.

I dont know at what point this woman started shooting. You don’t either.
None of us know exactly how this went down, so it is probably prudent to reserve judgement until then. If you are saying it is “fucked up” simply because an elderly woman was shot, I dont understand what you are implying. If you open fire on the police, mistakenly or not, there has to be some expectation that there probably are going to be bullets coming back.

Of course, its tragic that she lost her life due to a mistake. Tell me what they should have done instead.[/quote]

What’s fucked up is that police, regardless of any precedent, can run into someone’s house without any sign of who they are, whether that be their clothing or their badge, unless this was a raid or an undercover sting op. The guy they were looking for, the one who sold the drugs, wasn’t there. He apparently doesn’t even live there. It doesn’t take much common sense to realize that in neighborhoods where someone breaking into your house is a regular threat, it may not be wise to run into someone’s house and NOT expect to get shot at. That is why they should have dressed appropriately. It was bad planning and the result of it doesn’t surprise me at all.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
That is why they should have dressed appropriately. It was bad planning and the result of it doesn’t surprise me at all.[/quote]

Most of the home invasions down here involve people wearing clothes that say POLICE.

For fucks sake, the lady was 92. Do you honestly think there is ANYTHING those officers could have been wearing that would have kept a 92 year old lady from shooting at them as they came through her door in the middle of the night?

[quote]doogie wrote:
Professor X wrote:
That is why they should have dressed appropriately. It was bad planning and the result of it doesn’t surprise me at all.

Most of the home invasions down here involve people wearing clothes that say POLICE.

For fucks sake, the lady was 92. Do you honestly think there is ANYTHING those officers could have been wearing that would have kept a 92 year old lady from shooting at them as they came through her door in the middle of the night? [/quote]

Yes. How about…noticing it is the middle of the night…waiting for the 92 year old woman to even answer and then introduce yourselves with a freaking badge…and then present your warrant?

Gee, I know, that is such a hard choice to make what with common sense being such a rarity today. It makes much better sense to run into a house in a neighborhood that is described as having bars on every window and somehow expect for no one to react.