T Nation

911 Conspiracy Buffs

Bin Laden said to Europeans today…

“The events of Manhattan were retaliation against the American-Israeli alliance’s aggression against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, and I am the only one responsible for it. The Afghan people and government knew nothing about it. America knows that,” bin Laden said.

Please continue the debate…and tell me this guy is not a threat and behind the attacks.

Who you gonna believe? Some dipshit terrorist hiding in a Pakistani cave, or some dipshit American kid hiding in his parent’s basement?

Hmmm… my point is not coming across as forcefully as I hoped it would.

[quote]pookie wrote:
Who you gonna believe? Some dipshit terrorist hiding in a Pakistani cave, or some dipshit American kid hiding in his parent’s basement?

[/quote]

I don’t understand your sentence here. Our sworn enemy takes responsibility for the attack, yet you still would rather not belive in that? Then also, an American must be a dipshit living in a basement?

You don’t make sense. Maybe try a little more forcefully.

Bin Laden said:

“The American tide is ebbing, with God’s help, and they will go back to their countries,”

Shows the guy is wrong:

Bin Laden could go on live TV and say “I did it” and still people would not believe him.

Even the muslims who were celebrating the destruction and deaths of 9-11 turned around and said it was an Israeli plot and Bin Laden was not involved.

The tide is turning. Our media can’t stand it. Libs can’t stand it.

Somebody update me: was the rumor that bin Laden was contacted in June 2001 by an NSA agent while getting dialysis treatment in a Dubai hospital ever comprehensively debunked?

There’s a video tape of Bin Laden discussing the plot. If a video tape couldn’t persuade the CT’ers of Bin’s guilt, an audio tape won’t.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Somebody update me: was the rumor that bin Laden was contacted in June 2001 by an NSA agent while getting dialysis treatment in a Dubai hospital ever comprehensively debunked?[/quote]

Not sure how to debunk a simple “rumor.” I could start a rumor on conspiracy sites claiming a high ranking CIA official met with Bin Laden in 2000, in the Sudan. I haven’t shown that to be the case, but how can one prove me wrong? Any chance you have more info on this specific claim? I’ll check a site I visit from time to time.

[quote]Rockscar wrote:

I don’t understand your sentence here. Our sworn enemy takes responsibility for the attack, yet you still would rather not belive in that? Then also, an American must be a dipshit living in a basement?

You don’t make sense. Maybe try a little more forcefully.[/quote]

I may be wrong, but I believe Pookie was being humorous - and is supporting your point.

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
pookie wrote:
Who you gonna believe? Some dipshit terrorist hiding in a Pakistani cave, or some dipshit American kid hiding in his parent’s basement?

I don’t understand your sentence here. Our sworn enemy takes responsibility for the attack, yet you still would rather not belive in that? Then also, an American must be a dipshit living in a basement?

You don’t make sense. Maybe try a little more forcefully.[/quote]

Well, I’m not sure if it’s even possible to write in terms simple enough for you to understand, but bluntly:

A) Bin Laden would claim credit for the attacks even if he didn’t have anything to do with them. It’s highly probably he was implicated, but even if he wasn’t, it makes sense for him to claim it. It gives him and his bunch of assholes “prestige.”

B) If you think any of the conspiracy theories about 9/11 are true, then you’re probably living in a basement and yes, you’re a dipshit. But hey, people think homeopathy works too, so…

So my point is that neither Bin Laden, nor the conspiracy wonks have a smidgen of credibility and anything they say has to be evaluated in view of what they get out of saying it.

And finally, not all Americans are dipshits living in basements. Some have nice houses.

[quote]pookie wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
pookie wrote:
Who you gonna believe? Some dipshit terrorist hiding in a Pakistani cave, or some dipshit American kid hiding in his parent’s basement?

I don’t understand your sentence here. Our sworn enemy takes responsibility for the attack, yet you still would rather not belive in that? Then also, an American must be a dipshit living in a basement?

You don’t make sense. Maybe try a little more forcefully.

Well, I’m not sure if it’s even possible to write in terms simple enough for you to understand, but bluntly:

A) Bin Laden would claim credit for the attacks even if he didn’t have anything to do with them. It’s highly probably he was implicated, but even if he wasn’t, it makes sense for him to claim it. It gives him and his bunch of assholes “prestige.”

B) If you think any of the conspiracy theories about 9/11 are true, then you’re probably living in a basement and yes, you’re a dipshit. But hey, people think homeopathy works too, so…

So my point is that neither Bin Laden, nor the conspiracy wonks have a smidgen of credibility and anything they say has to be evaluated in view of what they get out of saying it.

And finally, not all Americans are dipshits living in basements. Some have nice houses.
[/quote]

I don’t belive in the conspiracy theories, and yes I’m dull, but I now understand what your supreme intellect when you put them in the above structure. I’m not totally stupid…just…a little special. I attribute my slowness to the French in my blood;)

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
Somebody update me: was the rumor that bin Laden was contacted in June 2001 by an NSA agent while getting dialysis treatment in a Dubai hospital ever comprehensively debunked?

Not sure how to debunk a simple “rumor.” I could start a rumor on conspiracy sites claiming a high ranking CIA official met with Bin Laden in 2000, in the Sudan. I haven’t shown that to be the case, but how can one prove me wrong? Any chance you have more info on this specific claim? I’ll check a site I visit from time to time.[/quote]

Here’s what I found after a ten minute search. It was CIA, not NSA, as I had thought.

[i]Bin Laden supposedly receives lifesaving treatment for renal failure from American specialist Dr. Terry Callaway at the American hospital in Dubai, United Arab Emirates. He is possibly accompanied by Dr. Ayman al-Zawahiri (who is said to be bin Laden’s personal physician as well as al-Qaeda’s second-in-command), plus several bodyguards. Callaway supposedly treated bin Laden in 1996 and 1998, also in Dubai. Callaway later refuses to answer any questions on this matter. [Le Figaro (Paris), 10/31/2001; Agence France-Presse, 11/1/2001; London Times, 11/1/2001]

During his stay, bin Laden is visited by “several members of his family and Saudi personalities,” including Prince Turki al-Faisal, then head of Saudi intelligence. [Guardian, 11/1/2001]

On July 12, bin Laden reportedly meets with CIA agent Larry Mitchell in the hospital. Mitchell apparently lives in Dubai as an Arab specialist under the cover of being a consular agent. The CIA, the Dubai hospital, and even bin Laden deny the story. The two news organizations that broke the story, Le Figaro and Radio France International, stand by their reporting. [Le Figaro (Paris), 10/31/2001; Radio France International, 11/1/2001]

The explosive story is widely reported in Europe, but there are only two, small wire service stories on it in the US. [United Press International, 11/1/2001; Reuters, 11/10/2001]

The Guardian claims that the story originated from French intelligence, “which is keen to reveal the ambiguous role of the CIA, and to restrain Washington from extending the war to Iraq and elsewhere.” The Guardian adds that during his stay bin Laden is also visited by a second CIA officer. [Guardian, 11/1/2001]

In 2003, reporter Richard Labeviere will provide additional details of what he claims happened in a book entitled “The Corridors of Terror.” He claims he learned about the meeting from a contact in the Dubai hospital. He claims the event was confirmed in detail by a Gulf prince who presented himself as an adviser to the Emir of Bahrain. This prince claimed the meeting was arranged by Prince Turki al-Faisal. The prince said, “By organizing this meeting…Turki thought he could start direct negotiations between [bin Laden] and the CIA on one fundamental point: that bin Laden and his supporters end their hostilities against American interests.” In exchange, the CIA and Saudis would allow bin Laden to return to Saudi Arabia and live freely there. The meeting is said to be a failure. [Reuters, 11/14/2003]

On July 15, Larry Mitchell reportedly returns to CIA headquarters to report on his meeting with bin Laden. [Radio France International, 11/1/2001]

French terrorism expert Antoine Sfeir says the story of this meeting has been verified and is not surprising: It “is nothing extraordinary. Bin Laden maintained contacts with the CIA up to 1998. These contacts have not ceased since bin Laden settled in Afghanistan. Up to the last moment, CIA agents hoped that bin Laden would return to the fold of the US, as was the case before 1989.” [Le Figaro (Paris), 11/1/2001]

A CIA spokesman calls the entire account of bin Laden’s stay at Dubai “sheer fantasy.” [Reuters, 11/14/2003][/i]

So essentially, we are faced with the positively odious choice of having to believe either the French, or the CIA.

I find this interesting on Bin Ladens part. I see it as a sign of him weakening, or he is in a weak place by now. To me it’s an obvious sign that he is trying to divert attention from something. “Hey, it’s all about me! Don’t look at anybody else, keep your attention on me.” That’s how I intemperate it. I see it as a weakness because he himself is creating the diversion versus some other asshole.
Beside, from what I heard, the palistinians, other than being a folk hero for them, really don’t give a fuck about him.

The bits I quoted above were from this site, in case anyone is interested.

Obviously, since the site itself is not an “official” source, it is probably one of those “conspiracy” sites, so everything written there can be discredited and ignored.

Still, makes for entertaining reading.

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&startpos=1600#a072401jordanoffer

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
The bits I quoted above were from this site, in case anyone is interested.

Obviously, since the site itself is not an “official” source, it is probably one of those “conspiracy” sites, so everything written there can be discredited and ignored.

Still, makes for entertaining reading.

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&startpos=1600#a072401jordanoffer
[/quote]

Entertaining reading?
With respect, V, instead of ludicrous snips from dubious conspiracy sites, how about these 2 meticulously researched–and thoroughly depressing–books:

Lawrence Wright “The Looming Tower: Al-Qaeda and the Rod to 9/11”

Steve Coll “Ghost Wars: The secret history of the CIA, Afghanistan,and Bin Laden, from the Soviet invasion to September 10, 2001”

The wonderful thing about good history, in distinction to looney conspiracies, is that it is better than fiction.

Thanks. I’ll check 'em out.

Bin Laden says he’s pleased but not involved
St. Petersburg Times
September 13, 2001

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan – Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden congratulated the people who carried out the deadly terrorist strikes in the United States but denied Wednesday that he was involved, a Palestinian journalist said.
http://www.sptimes.com/News/091301/Worldandnation/Bin_Laden_says_he_s_p.shtml

Bin Laden says he wasn’t behind attacks
Sept 17, 2001
DOHA, Qatar (CNN) – Islamic militant leader Osama bin Laden, the man the United States considers the prime suspect in last week’s terrorist attacks on New York and Washington, denied any role Sunday in the actions believed to have killed thousands.

In a statement issued to the Arabic satellite channel Al Jazeera, based in Qatar, bin Laden said, "The U.S. government has consistently blamed me for being behind every occasion its enemies attack it.

“I would like to assure the world that I did not plan the recent attacks, which seems to have been planned by people for personal reasons,” bin Laden’s statement said…

Immediately after the attacks that demolished the World Trade Center’s landmark twin towers and seriously damaged the Pentagon, officials of Afghanistan’s ruling Taliban said they doubted bin Laden could have been involved in carrying out the actions…
http://tinyurl.com/bf3r8

Judicial Watch Releases New FBI Documents: Osama bin Laden May Have Chartered Saudi Flight Out of U.S. after 9/11
“Eight days after the worst terrorist attack in U.S. history, Osama bin Laden possibly charters a flight to whisk his family out of the country, and it’s not worth more than a luggage search and a few brief interviews?” asked Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton.
http://www.judicialwatch.org/6322.shtml

Top Bin Laden Expert: The Tapes are Fakes
The top American Bin Laden expert agrees. Professor Bruce Lawrence, head of Duke University’s Religious Studies Department, has just finished a book of translations of Bin Laden’s speeches. He says the recent tape is a fake and that Bin Laden has been dead for years.

Ersatz Bin Laden tapes “verified” by the CIA are nothing new. Every Bin Laden statement since 2001 has been blatantly bogus.

The last we heard from the real Bin Laden were the following words recorded by Pakistani journalists: “I stress that I have not carried out this act, which appears to have been carried out by individuals with their own motivation… I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks on the United States… I had no knowledge of these attacks…”
http://www.physics911.net/kevinbarrett

FBI says, “No hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11”
On June 5, 2006, the Muckraker Report contacted the FBI Headquarters, b 324-3000[/b], to learn why Bin Laden’s Most Wanted poster did not indicate that Usama was also wanted in connection with 9/11. The Muckraker Report spoke with Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI. When asked why there is no mention of 9/11 on Bin Laden’s Most Wanted web page, Tomb said, “The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden’s Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.”

Surprised by the ease in which this FBI spokesman made such an astonishing statement, I asked, “How this was possible?” Tomb continued, “Bin Laden has not been formally charged in connection to 9/11…”

In the case of the 1998 United States Embassies being bombed, Bin Laden has been formally indicted and charged by a grand jury. He has not been formally indicted and charged in connection with 9/11 because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11…"

The Muckraker Report attempted to secure a reference to the U.S. government authenticating the Bin Laden “confession video”, to no avail. However, it is conclusive that the Bush Administration and U.S. Congress, along with the dead stream media, played the video as if it was authentic. So why doesn’t the FBI view the “confession video” as hard evidence…?
http://www.teamliberty.net/id267.html

[quote]pookie wrote:

And finally, not all Americans are dipshits living in basements. Some have nice houses.
[/quote]

Sad to say, Pook, but I think that one just sailed on past, too.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
Somebody update me: was the rumor that bin Laden was contacted in June 2001 by an NSA agent while getting dialysis treatment in a Dubai hospital ever comprehensively debunked?

Not sure how to debunk a simple “rumor.” I could start a rumor on conspiracy sites claiming a high ranking CIA official met with Bin Laden in 2000, in the Sudan. I haven’t shown that to be the case, but how can one prove me wrong? Any chance you have more info on this specific claim? I’ll check a site I visit from time to time.

Here’s what I found after a ten minute search. It was CIA, not NSA, as I had thought.

[i]Bin Laden supposedly receives lifesaving treatment for renal failure from American specialist Dr. Terry Callaway at the American hospital in Dubai, United Arab Emirates. He is possibly accompanied by Dr. Ayman al-Zawahiri (who is said to be bin Laden’s personal physician as well as al-Qaeda’s second-in-command), plus several bodyguards. Callaway supposedly treated bin Laden in 1996 and 1998, also in Dubai. Callaway later refuses to answer any questions on this matter. [Le Figaro (Paris), 10/31/2001; Agence France-Presse, 11/1/2001; London Times, 11/1/2001]

During his stay, bin Laden is visited by “several members of his family and Saudi personalities,” including Prince Turki al-Faisal, then head of Saudi intelligence. [Guardian, 11/1/2001]

On July 12, bin Laden reportedly meets with CIA agent Larry Mitchell in the hospital. Mitchell apparently lives in Dubai as an Arab specialist under the cover of being a consular agent. The CIA, the Dubai hospital, and even bin Laden deny the story. The two news organizations that broke the story, Le Figaro and Radio France International, stand by their reporting. [Le Figaro (Paris), 10/31/2001; Radio France International, 11/1/2001]

The explosive story is widely reported in Europe, but there are only two, small wire service stories on it in the US. [United Press International, 11/1/2001; Reuters, 11/10/2001]

The Guardian claims that the story originated from French intelligence, “which is keen to reveal the ambiguous role of the CIA, and to restrain Washington from extending the war to Iraq and elsewhere.” The Guardian adds that during his stay bin Laden is also visited by a second CIA officer. [Guardian, 11/1/2001]

In 2003, reporter Richard Labeviere will provide additional details of what he claims happened in a book entitled “The Corridors of Terror.” He claims he learned about the meeting from a contact in the Dubai hospital. He claims the event was confirmed in detail by a Gulf prince who presented himself as an adviser to the Emir of Bahrain.

This prince claimed the meeting was arranged by Prince Turki al-Faisal. The prince said, “By organizing this meeting…Turki thought he could start direct negotiations between [bin Laden] and the CIA on one fundamental point: that bin Laden and his supporters end their hostilities against American interests.” In exchange, the CIA and Saudis would allow bin Laden to return to Saudi Arabia and live freely there. The meeting is said to be a failure. [Reuters, 11/14/2003]

On July 15, Larry Mitchell reportedly returns to CIA headquarters to report on his meeting with bin Laden. [Radio France International, 11/1/2001]

French terrorism expert Antoine Sfeir says the story of this meeting has been verified and is not surprising: It “is nothing extraordinary. Bin Laden maintained contacts with the CIA up to 1998. These contacts have not ceased since bin Laden settled in Afghanistan. Up to the last moment, CIA agents hoped that bin Laden would return to the fold of the US, as was the case before 1989.” [Le Figaro (Paris), 11/1/2001]

A CIA spokesman calls the entire account of bin Laden’s stay at Dubai “sheer fantasy.” [Reuters, 11/14/2003][/i]

So essentially, we are faced with the positively odious choice of having to believe either the French, or the CIA.[/quote]

It appears to originate from ‘Le Figaro,’ and was then used in further reporting. And, it all appears to rely on an uncomfirmed source. However, the doctor named as to having treated Bin denies this took place, as does the hospital director. And, noone has come forth to say “yeah, that was me. I saw him there.”

I’d say the story is rumor.
http://www.911myths.com/html/bin_ladin_met_the_cia.html

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
pookie wrote:

And finally, not all Americans are dipshits living in basements. Some have nice houses.

Sad to say, Pook, but I think that one just sailed on past, too. [/quote]

Nah. I’m just not in the mood to take the bait.