I am NOT arguing about when life starts
[quote]therajraj wrote:
- I’m not writing a paper. If you don’t accept it, that’s up to you
[/quote]
LOL
[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
Congratulations on your dumbest post of disjointed thoughts yet.
I did not mention the 1800’s (but I will),[/quote]
So disjointed that you cannot refute even one point! They have a name for people like you where I come from B r i a n…(idiot:)
Who said that YOU mentioned the 1800’s? Show me where I said that and I won’t let this one go. Debating with you is like arguing with an alzheimer’s patient.
You boob, I was comparing the arguments used during the great slave debates of the 1850’s to the very similar arguments being used regarding those who are pro choice today. Are you putting me on? You honestly don’t get it? WOW! Look B r i a n I want you to stay here on T Nation as I think you are a laugh riot, but you really have to try as hard as you can. Because unlike me others will get bored with you.
And once again I will use my slave comparison ( D O Y O U U N D E R S T A N D ?)
In the 1800’s they would say, "Of course blacks are human but that doesn’t mean that they are equal in any way to whites. This is the way that they rationalized slavery. G E T I T ?
Your stupidity knows no bounds. You don’t even know what the word hypocrite means?
One more time for little B r i a n:
Your Church is against abortion and homosexual marriage you are for both and also call yourself a Catholic and take communion. That makes you a hypocrite. Now run and google hypocrite it will have your photo after the word.
For the fourth time (we have to say everything at least 3 or 4 times for little B r i a n), you implied that you were going to help your brother build his house. Don’t like me bringing it up? Don’t say stupid shit and it won’t get thrown back in your gawking wide eye’d face…idiot.
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Well then expect to be ignored if you would like to have an intelligent discussion on these boards.
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I expect America to pass her own laws and be something which other countries can follow. When abortions in America are outlawed, I expect murder to be charged in the State in which she lives. As our Constitution was intended. In other words, the mother would face the crime of murder, murder of her unborn child.
Need more explanation?
[quote]therajraj wrote:
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I’m not writing a paper. If you don’t accept it, that’s up to you
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I asked you on the previous page how long a sentence should a woman receive for having an abortion if it were made illegal. you replied:
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
However I believe America would take a stance similar to the one in Chile. If a woman has an abortion, she goes to jail for life. The doctor who performed the procedure loses his credential degree and jail/fine. [/quote]
I then explained that Chile’s laws will only imprison women for a short sentence (not sure how long that it is but I would surprised if its longer than 5 years) not life imprisonment.
Now I’m asking you to clarify your position. If abortions were made illegal in the US, would you want the women having abortions to serve a sentence in line with what’s outlined in Chile’s law (lets say 5 years) or do you think they deserve life in prison? Do you see how you made a conflicting statement in what I quoted?[/quote]
So what are you arguing about? Please be very clear.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
I am NOT arguing about when life starts[/quote]
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
I will try again Brian. Now please be honest and when there is no answer which you like, well there is a reason for that.
[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
Kneedragger,
it is solely a matter of what each person believes constitutes a human being[/quote] I have to disagree with this. Science proves that human beings are human beings at the very moment of conception. Many pro-death people do not understand the science which proves the case for life. Most people if not all people do not like to be wrong. A few upstanding people can look honestly at the facts in front of them and realize they are mistaken. Trust me, the feeling is awesome when it clicks in your brain and you understand science better and there is no more murky water to wade through. [quote](pre-birth that is), the science doesn’t distinguish human/non-human[/quote] [i]WHY WOULD SCIENCE NOT DISTINGUISH A DIFFERENCE? Could it be that the unborn are ALWAYS human?[/u] [quote]but it does distinguish viable/non-viable.[/quote] I ask for science or even a source and I have received nothing. [quote]Again, I am not in support of abortion on a personal level,[/quote] If you support the choice of a woman slaughtering her child then I am sorry but you are in fact pro-[i]DEATH[/i] and in support of abortion on a personal level. You are personally in favor of abortion. As you are a man, you cannot physically have an abortion anyway. I am guessing what you mean is that you wouldnÃ?¢??t want your wife to have an abortion if she were to become pregnant. However, since you believe that women should have the right to choose for themselves, even then you are relinquishing the right to say yes or no to the life of your own child. Again, I say you ARE personally in favor of abortion. [quote]though I very clearly see why people choose it,[/quote] Just because you think you understand why, that will never be an excuse. I can understand motives to murder, but that does not excuse the murder. [quote]aborting a non-viable fetus at 6 weeks, or taking the morning after pill and getting rid of a zygote is not the same thing as killing an actual living person,[/quote] Where is the science to back your claim? [quote]additionally the difference between abortion at 6 weeks and abortion at 30 weeks (where the fetus would very well survive outside the womb) is quite substantial as well.[/quote] Actually you are mistaken. Please tell me which fetus, or person has survived at thirty weeks with NO ‘support from the outside?’ Doctors and nurses have helped children survive, yes, but the point is they were unable to survive on their own. Every child in the world needs support! Let us go one step farther. Can a child who has been born, survive on their own? Can they find food and love and all the care they need? ABSOLUTELY NOT! Think about that, the mother provides what the baby needs because that is the way nature intended it. If the mother is unable, medicine will intervene to help. [quote]Science will probably look at a zygote and determine that it is a very immature human[/quote] There is no PROBABLY, it already is, because science proves the zygote has the exact same traits as an adult. They are immature and less developed than an adult, but so is a CHILD who is not mature and fully grown. Just like the kids in your AVI. They are less mature and have not fully developed but they still have the exact same characteristics they will have as adults. Remember my acronym of Size, Level of development, Environment and Degree of dependency? We are all in different stages as we go through life. The unborn have the EXACT SAME characteristics as they grow and mature. [quote](not human in total but with the possibility of becoming a viable human if given the necessary resources)[/quote] Thank you, I was trying to help you understand this point. However, they are always human, nothing less and nothing more. [quote]so maybe we should try to split hairs even more and say it is Human (the tissue is human, the cellular structure is human, 26 chromosomes[/quote] 46 chromosomes in a human, whether they are adults or just past the moment of conception. Humans have 46 chromosomes at all stages of life. [quote]etc) but does that make it a human being, I would say that in its early stages it doesn’t meet the pre-requisistes for being called a human being.[/quote] What then are the “prerequisites” for being human? How can you apply the adjective of human to something but then be claiming it actually is not human? ThatÃ?¢??s illogical and contradictory.
Brian I think you are nearing understanding the points I am trying to make. As I have said previously I mean this in the most sincere way possible, please meet a disabled child and tell me what makes them less human than you or I.[/quote]
At no point do I ever say that disabled children are less human, please try not to put words in my mouth, you’re better than that.
May I ask raj, what level is your education? Just a curiosity.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
Congratulations on your dumbest post of disjointed thoughts yet.
I did not mention the 1800’s (but I will),[/quote]
So disjointed that you cannot refute even one point! They have a name for people like you where I come from B r i a n…(idiot:)
Who said that YOU mentioned the 1800’s? Show me where I said that and I won’t let this one go. Debating with you is like arguing with an alzheimer’s patient.
You boob, I was comparing the arguments used during the great slave debates of the 1850’s to the very similar arguments being used regarding those who are pro choice today. Are you putting me on? You honestly don’t get it? WOW! Look B r i a n I want you to stay here on T Nation as I think you are a laugh riot, but you really have to try as hard as you can. Because unlike me others will get bored with you.
And once again I will use my slave comparison ( D O Y O U U N D E R S T A N D ?)
In the 1800’s they would say, "Of course blacks are human but that doesn’t mean that they are equal in any way to whites. This is the way that they rationalized slavery. G E T I T ?
Your stupidity knows no bounds. You don’t even know what the word hypocrite means?
One more time for little B r i a n:
Your Church is against abortion and homosexual marriage you are for both and also call yourself a Catholic and take communion. That makes you a hypocrite. Now run and google hypocrite it will have your photo after the word.
For the fourth time (we have to say everything at least 3 or 4 times for little B r i a n), you implied that you were going to help your brother build his house. Don’t like me bringing it up? Don’t say stupid shit and it won’t get thrown back in your gawking wide eye’d face…idiot.[/quote]
ZEB,
Your slave argument makes no sense because it works from the assumption that I am as dumb as you, I am not. Blacks and Whites are the same, however there is a huge difference between a single celled zygote and a viable 30 week old fetus. As far as the house thing, just let it go you’re embarrassing yourself, I suggest you terminate your internet service.
[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
I will try again Brian. Now please be honest and when there is no answer which you like, well there is a reason for that.
[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
Kneedragger,
it is solely a matter of what each person believes constitutes a human being[/quote] I have to disagree with this. Science proves that human beings are human beings at the very moment of conception. Many pro-death people do not understand the science which proves the case for life. Most people if not all people do not like to be wrong. A few upstanding people can look honestly at the facts in front of them and realize they are mistaken. Trust me, the feeling is awesome when it clicks in your brain and you understand science better and there is no more murky water to wade through. [quote](pre-birth that is), the science doesn’t distinguish human/non-human[/quote] [i]WHY WOULD SCIENCE NOT DISTINGUISH A DIFFERENCE? Could it be that the unborn are ALWAYS human?[/u] [quote]but it does distinguish viable/non-viable.[/quote] I ask for science or even a source and I have received nothing. [quote]Again, I am not in support of abortion on a personal level,[/quote] If you support the choice of a woman slaughtering her child then I am sorry but you are in fact pro-[i]DEATH[/i] and in support of abortion on a personal level. You are personally in favor of abortion. As you are a man, you cannot physically have an abortion anyway. I am guessing what you mean is that you wouldnÃ??Ã?¢??t want your wife to have an abortion if she were to become pregnant. However, since you believe that women should have the right to choose for themselves, even then you are relinquishing the right to say yes or no to the life of your own child. Again, I say you ARE personally in favor of abortion. [quote]though I very clearly see why people choose it,[/quote] Just because you think you understand why, that will never be an excuse. I can understand motives to murder, but that does not excuse the murder. [quote]aborting a non-viable fetus at 6 weeks, or taking the morning after pill and getting rid of a zygote is not the same thing as killing an actual living person,[/quote] Where is the science to back your claim? [quote]additionally the difference between abortion at 6 weeks and abortion at 30 weeks (where the fetus would very well survive outside the womb) is quite substantial as well.[/quote] Actually you are mistaken. Please tell me which fetus, or person has survived at thirty weeks with NO ‘support from the outside?’ Doctors and nurses have helped children survive, yes, but the point is they were unable to survive on their own. Every child in the world needs support! Let us go one step farther. Can a child who has been born, survive on their own? Can they find food and love and all the care they need? ABSOLUTELY NOT! Think about that, the mother provides what the baby needs because that is the way nature intended it. If the mother is unable, medicine will intervene to help. [quote]Science will probably look at a zygote and determine that it is a very immature human[/quote] There is no PROBABLY, it already is, because science proves the zygote has the exact same traits as an adult. They are immature and less developed than an adult, but so is a CHILD who is not mature and fully grown. Just like the kids in your AVI. They are less mature and have not fully developed but they still have the exact same characteristics they will have as adults. Remember my acronym of Size, Level of development, Environment and Degree of dependency? We are all in different stages as we go through life. The unborn have the EXACT SAME characteristics as they grow and mature. [quote](not human in total but with the possibility of becoming a viable human if given the necessary resources)[/quote] Thank you, I was trying to help you understand this point. However, they are always human, nothing less and nothing more. [quote]so maybe we should try to split hairs even more and say it is Human (the tissue is human, the cellular structure is human, 26 chromosomes[/quote] 46 chromosomes in a human, whether they are adults or just past the moment of conception. Humans have 46 chromosomes at all stages of life. [quote]etc) but does that make it a human being, I would say that in its early stages it doesn’t meet the pre-requisistes for being called a human being.[/quote] What then are the “prerequisites” for being human? How can you apply the adjective of human to something but then be claiming it actually is not human? ThatÃ??Ã?¢??s illogical and contradictory.
Brian I think you are nearing understanding the points I am trying to make. As I have said previously I mean this in the most sincere way possible, please meet a disabled child and tell me what makes them less human than you or I.[/quote]
At no point do I ever say that disabled children are less human, please try not to put words in my mouth, you’re better than that.[/quote]
Yeah Kneedragger he doesn’t think that they’re less human. He just wants to abort them!
[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
I will try again Brian. Now please be honest and when there is no answer which you like, well there is a reason for that.
[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
Kneedragger,
it is solely a matter of what each person believes constitutes a human being[/quote] I have to disagree with this. Science proves that human beings are human beings at the very moment of conception. Many pro-death people do not understand the science which proves the case for life. Most people if not all people do not like to be wrong. A few upstanding people can look honestly at the facts in front of them and realize they are mistaken. Trust me, the feeling is awesome when it clicks in your brain and you understand science better and there is no more murky water to wade through. [quote](pre-birth that is), the science doesn’t distinguish human/non-human[/quote] [i]WHY WOULD SCIENCE NOT DISTINGUISH A DIFFERENCE? Could it be that the unborn are ALWAYS human?[/u] [quote]but it does distinguish viable/non-viable.[/quote] I ask for science or even a source and I have received nothing. [quote]Again, I am not in support of abortion on a personal level,[/quote] If you support the choice of a woman slaughtering her child then I am sorry but you are in fact pro-[i]DEATH[/i] and in support of abortion on a personal level. You are personally in favor of abortion. As you are a man, you cannot physically have an abortion anyway. I am guessing what you mean is that you wouldnÃ???Ã??Ã?¢??t want your wife to have an abortion if she were to become pregnant. However, since you believe that women should have the right to choose for themselves, even then you are relinquishing the right to say yes or no to the life of your own child. Again, I say you ARE personally in favor of abortion. [quote]though I very clearly see why people choose it,[/quote] Just because you think you understand why, that will never be an excuse. I can understand motives to murder, but that does not excuse the murder. [quote]aborting a non-viable fetus at 6 weeks, or taking the morning after pill and getting rid of a zygote is not the same thing as killing an actual living person,[/quote] Where is the science to back your claim? [quote]additionally the difference between abortion at 6 weeks and abortion at 30 weeks (where the fetus would very well survive outside the womb) is quite substantial as well.[/quote] Actually you are mistaken. Please tell me which fetus, or person has survived at thirty weeks with NO ‘support from the outside?’ Doctors and nurses have helped children survive, yes, but the point is they were unable to survive on their own. Every child in the world needs support! Let us go one step farther. Can a child who has been born, survive on their own? Can they find food and love and all the care they need? ABSOLUTELY NOT! Think about that, the mother provides what the baby needs because that is the way nature intended it. If the mother is unable, medicine will intervene to help. [quote]Science will probably look at a zygote and determine that it is a very immature human[/quote] There is no PROBABLY, it already is, because science proves the zygote has the exact same traits as an adult. They are immature and less developed than an adult, but so is a CHILD who is not mature and fully grown. Just like the kids in your AVI. They are less mature and have not fully developed but they still have the exact same characteristics they will have as adults. Remember my acronym of Size, Level of development, Environment and Degree of dependency? We are all in different stages as we go through life. The unborn have the EXACT SAME characteristics as they grow and mature. [quote](not human in total but with the possibility of becoming a viable human if given the necessary resources)[/quote] Thank you, I was trying to help you understand this point. However, they are always human, nothing less and nothing more. [quote]so maybe we should try to split hairs even more and say it is Human (the tissue is human, the cellular structure is human, 26 chromosomes[/quote] 46 chromosomes in a human, whether they are adults or just past the moment of conception. Humans have 46 chromosomes at all stages of life. [quote]etc) but does that make it a human being, I would say that in its early stages it doesn’t meet the pre-requisistes for being called a human being.[/quote] What then are the “prerequisites” for being human? How can you apply the adjective of human to something but then be claiming it actually is not human? ThatÃ???Ã??Ã?¢??s illogical and contradictory.
Brian I think you are nearing understanding the points I am trying to make. As I have said previously I mean this in the most sincere way possible, please meet a disabled child and tell me what makes them less human than you or I.[/quote]
At no point do I ever say that disabled children are less human, please try not to put words in my mouth, you’re better than that.[/quote] [/i]
Protip: no he isn’t.
ZEB,
I find it astounding that you can be wrong so often, it seems like you are actually allergic to being correct…ever.
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if you need to put me on ignore I understand
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No all I was asking for was clarification of what you wanted to see happen. Then we went on a tangent on Chile.
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not arguing anything just wanted clarification
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4 year degree in Econ & finance and working towards 2 accounting designations. Working on the US CPA.
[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
ZEB,
I find it astounding that you can be wrong so often, it seems like you are actually allergic to being correct…ever.[/quote]
You’ve said that repeatedly yet in all of our exchanges you have never even once proven me wrong.
So, your claim rings sort of hollow —hypocrite.
ZEB,
I prove you wrong consistently, you are clearly just to dumb or stubborn to realize it.
Kneedragger,
Yeah it should have said 46 (though 45 or 47 is a possibility) I hit the wrong button on my screen.
Brian, you start on page 35 and address the four points of SLED separately, rather than together. Yet you never once address how those points address every other human walking the earth today. Here is a portion of your posts - [quote]1. I do not believe abortion should be used as birth control.
2. I believe a woman has the right to terminate a pregnancy for any reason in the first trimester
3. After the 1st trimester abortion should only be an option for rape, incest, life of the mother at risk, severe genetic abnormalities/disabilities.
My criticism of the original post is based on the funding cuts and diminished services provided in numerous states across the US. When the childs mom and dad are gone who takes care of a 43 year old with Downs Syndrome, or severe CP or any number of other identifiable issues that may prevent a child from being independent? If the state refuses to take care of them do we just put them on an ice flow like an old eskimo?[/quote] I shall address these exact same points AGAIN. However I will soon just tell you to read our interaction again. 1) If you support ANY abortion, there is no difference over another abortion. 2) What gives her that right? The state is not a good enough answer. Where does the law come from, for example? 3) If one abortion is acceptable in your mind, all are justifiable because it is all about convenience for the mother and/or father.
From page 36 you write the following ?
[quote] I do not consider a 3 month old fetus a human[/quote] With no source to back it, I might add.
On the same page you say that you will [quote] support the right of a woman to choose to terminate the pregnancy of a fetus[/quote]
Page 37 you say [quote]12-13 weeks is only arbitrary in the sense that a fetus is not viable for another two months, but I think 12 weeks is enough time to make an informed decision. You seem to think that I believe late term abortions are acceptable, I do not.[/quote] Never once have you provided a source or even science to back your claims. Never even a single time.
Page 38 in this thread, these are your words edited for clarification. You go a tangent about solders here, in an abortion thread.[quote]BrianHanson wrote: - you asked how many disabled people I know, people with TBI’s from shrapnel, people missing arms and legs (or all of them), burned, blind, unable to speak etc. the VA takes care of them, we do not have a similar program in place for regular old people with disabilities. don’t confuse the issue by trying to diminish the disabilities of soldiers, their disabilities are just as real. [/quote]
I have never made the claim that any living person is anything less than any other person, including the unborn. Brian, that is YOUR claim! By thinking that unborn are less than human, you believe they can be justifiably aborted. In other words, you believe the unborn can be justifiably slaughtered through the means of abortion.
Brian, what process do you think abortion is? The unborn are killed through one of two methods; 1) Surgical means ? A doctor will go in and rip the child apart, limb by limb using forceps. After the major pieces are out, a glass tube sucks out the remnants. Or you have option 2) a Chemical means ? where hormones are introduced, generally a synthetic estrogen and the fetus is poisoned to death. Neither one is a gentle process. Surgical abortions are dropping in portions of the country while chemical means are increasing. Other parts are not changing and in a few areas, the total number is dropping.
My point has always been the same. Stop abortions in this country and spread education on the subject. You would like abortions to continue on the current road because you support an abortion. There are no gray areas in this topic. Pick a side and objectively argue the case for that side. I am still waiting for you to make a case for the abortion side, the death side.
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Willfully ignorant posters are reserved for the ignore list. I would not classify you there yet.
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I gave Chile as an example after you asked, go back and read again if you need to. We both no your comprehension could use a little work ; )
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Ask for clarification not loaded questions. Girls in high school played games, I thought we could be above that shrug
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Best of luck to you. Econ is far away from high school biology but you should still understand the topic ; )
[quote]therajraj wrote:
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if you need to put me on ignore I understand
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No all I was asking for was clarification of what you wanted to see happen. Then we went on a tangent on Chile.
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not arguing anything just wanted clarification
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4 year degree in Econ & finance and working towards 2 accounting designations. Working on the US CPA.[/quote]
I love it. I wake up to a full new page of responses and STILL not ONE member of the pro-abortion side had even attempted to do anything other than deflect the conversation away from the very simple question I have been asking. Over and over and over and over and over again.
Let me try one more time, though I expect another answer similar to, “Well, you guys have to want life in prison for the mother and the doctor, so there!” Wtf?
One. More. Time.
Exactly when does a conceived human become a human being?
Until this very simple, fundamental question gets answered, NOTHING else we are talking about makes any difference whatsoever. It’s like talking philosophy before defining your terms. We’ll be talking past each other the whole time.
So, pretty please, with a cherry on top, answer the damned question.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
I love it. I wake up to a full new page of responses and STILL not ONE member of the pro-abortion side had even attempted to do anything other than deflect the conversation away from the very simple question I have been asking. Over and over and over and over and over again.
Let me try one more time, though I expect another answer similar to, “Well, you guys have to want life in prison for the mother and the doctor, so there!” Wtf?
One. More. Time.
Exactly when does a conceived human become a human being?
Until this very simple, fundamental question gets answered, NOTHING else we are talking about makes any difference whatsoever. It’s like talking philosophy before defining your terms. We’ll be talking past each other the whole time.
So, pretty please, with a cherry on top, answer the damned question. [/quote]
Sure I’ll take a stab at it. The way I see it, for the entirety of the being’s existence, even before conception, it is “human” in that it contains human genetic material. I wouldn’t personally consider it a sovereign human being until it can survive independent of the womb, however.
And What game was I playing? You made a conflicting statement and I asked you to clarify. Anyways I don’t care.
So to the other pro lifers, what do you think the legal punishment for consenting to an abortion if made illegal?
[quote]Cortes wrote:
I love it. I wake up to a full new page of responses and STILL not ONE member of the pro-abortion side had even attempted to do anything other than deflect the conversation away from the very simple question I have been asking. Over and over and over and over and over again.
Let me try one more time, though I expect another answer similar to, “Well, you guys have to want life in prison for the mother and the doctor, so there!” Wtf?
One. More. Time.
Exactly when does a conceived human become a human being?
Until this very simple, fundamental question gets answered, NOTHING else we are talking about makes any difference whatsoever. It’s like talking philosophy before defining your terms. We’ll be talking past each other the whole time.
So, pretty please, with a cherry on top, answer the damned question. [/quote]
After the 1st trimester.