90% of Children with Down Syndrome are Aborted

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
1041

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Big_Dave wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Big_Dave wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:

[i]The organization reports that there was an 11 percent decrease in babies born with Down Syndrome between 1989 and 2006, when there should have been an estimated 42 percent increase.[/i]

[/quote]

Is this supposed to be a bad thing? It’s great that people have a choice of whether or not they want to spend their lives raising a down syndrome child. [/quote]

So, feel free to correct me, but I can’t see any other possible way of reading your post than,“Eugenics is great!” There isn’t even an attempt to mask the pure selfish evil of your statement. And yes, I most certainly did use the word evil. Monstrous evil.

Wow. I can’t wait till this thread hits max posts and gets locked out and kneedragger starts a new one; so that all of the people who won’t bother getting into a thread that is so long can start fresh, and see the staggeringly sick ideas of morality that are on full display here.

You do realize who else gets sucked limb from tiny limb through that glass vacuum tube in your lovely little world here, don’t you? Girls. Lots and lots of girls. Do you think that’s also great?

Well now. You have to. Don’t you?
[/quote]

To try to argue that I am in favor of eugenics is disingenuous. I did not state that people should have to abort their fetuses that have genetic abnormalities. I merely said I think it’s great that people have a choice. If you want to raise a child with downs that is your personal choice, but people should not be forced to have children that they do not want.

Why should I care if girl fetuses are aborted? It does not affect my life in any way. If someone doesn’t want a girl or a boy they should have the choice to terminate their pregnancy. Last time I checked you were not the one that was going to have to raise the eventual child, so why do you care so much about something that does not affect you at all? [/quote]

Call me old-fashioned, I’m just not too keen on people indiscriminately murdering other human beings, particularly self-serving murderers who rip the limbs off and suck the brains out of the most innocent among us before tossing the remains into a medical waste bag and throwing it in a bin to rot before disposal.

First: Yes, you most certainly DO support eugenics.

Next: They are HUMAN girls at the fetal stage of development. I understand exactly why you use the word “fetus,” though. You have to.

You wanna stick around for this? I’ll have you admitting to absolute nihilism or twisting yourself into semantic pretzels attempting to stay out of cognitive dissonance. Yes, that is a challenge.

Or, perhaps, you’ll do what so many other of your ilk have done, and bravely run away.

We can start here: Exactly when does a conceived human become a human being?

Since you are so quick with your opinions, certainly you have an answer to this question. Let’s hear it.
[/quote]

Unless your Clint Eastwood in a western movie, humans have names. You will never heard a murder trial verdict read as “for the count of murder of the human with no name, we find the defendant guilty”.[/quote]

Oh darn that’s not true. Many times the murder victim is referred to as “John Doe” because the court is unaware of what the victims name is, or even if he had one.

Now what?

[/quote]

Do they not have a name, or is the name just unknown?[/quote]

We don’t know do we? There are plenty of grave stones that are unnamed. But there’s still a person buried there.

[/quote]

Is there a reason they can’t have a name though?

1042

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Big_Dave wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Big_Dave wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:

[i]The organization reports that there was an 11 percent decrease in babies born with Down Syndrome between 1989 and 2006, when there should have been an estimated 42 percent increase.[/i]

[/quote]

Is this supposed to be a bad thing? It’s great that people have a choice of whether or not they want to spend their lives raising a down syndrome child. [/quote]

So, feel free to correct me, but I can’t see any other possible way of reading your post than,“Eugenics is great!” There isn’t even an attempt to mask the pure selfish evil of your statement. And yes, I most certainly did use the word evil. Monstrous evil.

Wow. I can’t wait till this thread hits max posts and gets locked out and kneedragger starts a new one; so that all of the people who won’t bother getting into a thread that is so long can start fresh, and see the staggeringly sick ideas of morality that are on full display here.

You do realize who else gets sucked limb from tiny limb through that glass vacuum tube in your lovely little world here, don’t you? Girls. Lots and lots of girls. Do you think that’s also great?

Well now. You have to. Don’t you?
[/quote]

To try to argue that I am in favor of eugenics is disingenuous. I did not state that people should have to abort their fetuses that have genetic abnormalities. I merely said I think it’s great that people have a choice. If you want to raise a child with downs that is your personal choice, but people should not be forced to have children that they do not want.

Why should I care if girl fetuses are aborted? It does not affect my life in any way. If someone doesn’t want a girl or a boy they should have the choice to terminate their pregnancy. Last time I checked you were not the one that was going to have to raise the eventual child, so why do you care so much about something that does not affect you at all? [/quote]

Call me old-fashioned, I’m just not too keen on people indiscriminately murdering other human beings, particularly self-serving murderers who rip the limbs off and suck the brains out of the most innocent among us before tossing the remains into a medical waste bag and throwing it in a bin to rot before disposal.

First: Yes, you most certainly DO support eugenics.

Next: They are HUMAN girls at the fetal stage of development. I understand exactly why you use the word “fetus,” though. You have to.

You wanna stick around for this? I’ll have you admitting to absolute nihilism or twisting yourself into semantic pretzels attempting to stay out of cognitive dissonance. Yes, that is a challenge.

Or, perhaps, you’ll do what so many other of your ilk have done, and bravely run away.

We can start here: Exactly when does a conceived human become a human being?

Since you are so quick with your opinions, certainly you have an answer to this question. Let’s hear it.
[/quote]

Unless your Clint Eastwood in a western movie, humans have names. You will never heard a murder trial verdict read as “for the count of murder of the human with no name, we find the defendant guilty”.[/quote]

Oh darn that’s not true. Many times the murder victim is referred to as “John Doe” because the court is unaware of what the victims name is, or even if he had one.

Now what?

[/quote]

Do they not have a name, or is the name just unknown?[/quote]

We don’t know do we? There are plenty of grave stones that are unnamed. But there’s still a person buried there.

[/quote]

Is there a reason they can’t have a name though?[/quote]

Is there a reason someone cannot be alive and not have a name?

1043

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Big_Dave wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Big_Dave wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:

[i]The organization reports that there was an 11 percent decrease in babies born with Down Syndrome between 1989 and 2006, when there should have been an estimated 42 percent increase.[/i]

[/quote]

Is this supposed to be a bad thing? It’s great that people have a choice of whether or not they want to spend their lives raising a down syndrome child. [/quote]

So, feel free to correct me, but I can’t see any other possible way of reading your post than,“Eugenics is great!” There isn’t even an attempt to mask the pure selfish evil of your statement. And yes, I most certainly did use the word evil. Monstrous evil.

Wow. I can’t wait till this thread hits max posts and gets locked out and kneedragger starts a new one; so that all of the people who won’t bother getting into a thread that is so long can start fresh, and see the staggeringly sick ideas of morality that are on full display here.

You do realize who else gets sucked limb from tiny limb through that glass vacuum tube in your lovely little world here, don’t you? Girls. Lots and lots of girls. Do you think that’s also great?

Well now. You have to. Don’t you?
[/quote]

To try to argue that I am in favor of eugenics is disingenuous. I did not state that people should have to abort their fetuses that have genetic abnormalities. I merely said I think it’s great that people have a choice. If you want to raise a child with downs that is your personal choice, but people should not be forced to have children that they do not want.

Why should I care if girl fetuses are aborted? It does not affect my life in any way. If someone doesn’t want a girl or a boy they should have the choice to terminate their pregnancy. Last time I checked you were not the one that was going to have to raise the eventual child, so why do you care so much about something that does not affect you at all? [/quote]

Call me old-fashioned, I’m just not too keen on people indiscriminately murdering other human beings, particularly self-serving murderers who rip the limbs off and suck the brains out of the most innocent among us before tossing the remains into a medical waste bag and throwing it in a bin to rot before disposal.

First: Yes, you most certainly DO support eugenics.

Next: They are HUMAN girls at the fetal stage of development. I understand exactly why you use the word “fetus,” though. You have to.

You wanna stick around for this? I’ll have you admitting to absolute nihilism or twisting yourself into semantic pretzels attempting to stay out of cognitive dissonance. Yes, that is a challenge.

Or, perhaps, you’ll do what so many other of your ilk have done, and bravely run away.

We can start here: Exactly when does a conceived human become a human being?

Since you are so quick with your opinions, certainly you have an answer to this question. Let’s hear it.
[/quote]

Unless your Clint Eastwood in a western movie, humans have names. You will never heard a murder trial verdict read as “for the count of murder of the human with no name, we find the defendant guilty”.[/quote]

Oh darn that’s not true. Many times the murder victim is referred to as “John Doe” because the court is unaware of what the victims name is, or even if he had one.

Now what?

[/quote]

Do they not have a name, or is the name just unknown?[/quote]

We don’t know do we? There are plenty of grave stones that are unnamed. But there’s still a person buried there.

[/quote]

Is there a reason they can’t have a name though?[/quote]

Is there a reason someone cannot be alive and not have a name?[/quote]

Like not being able to determine gender?

1044

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

Is there a reason they can’t have a name though?[/quote]

Dude, seriously, what point are you trying to make? Traditionally, parents don’t have to have a name picked out until they have to sign the birth certificate…therefore, logically most wait until closer to that time to even come up with a name. It gives more time for creativity. That way people can come up with cool exciting names like…Sara…and Bobby…or Shakwanda.

1045

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

Like not being able to determine gender?[/quote]

Wow…good point…because it isn’t human until gender differentiation?

What about hermaphrodites?

1046

Professor X in this thread, seriously? If I had known this would happen I wouldn’t have started posted in here yesterday.

1047

Glad you could come back to the conversation Brian. I hope you had an enjoyable weekend. Shall we continue our conversation?

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
How about it becomes a human when it can live outside the womb, that is a pretty easy answer isn’t it?[/quote] So you want to kill a child while in the womb, but after they are born what changes and you can NOT kill them? [quote] What’s that about 5 months?[/quote] What happens at 5 months? Is that just an arbitrary number YOU chose?

[quote]How about after it starts to look like a human being?[/quote] Who decides if it â??look[s] like a human being?â?? [quote]That’s about 10-12 weeks depending on your version of what a person looks like, maybe a few more weeks, maybe a couple less if you like tadpoles.[/quote] No, the human embryo [i]NEVER[/i] once changes species or any single other species or thing, they are always human and DNA proves that fact.

[quote]I am not sure that you folks will accept anything other than conception as an answer though,[/quote] That would be because that is the beginning stage of life! [quote]even though a zygote is no more a person than a squirrel is,[/quote] Where is the SCIENCE to back your claim? [quote]your claim that it is a person is based on faith masquerading as science, and I have already conceded that your faith will remain intact regardless of any evidence provided.[/quote] Never once have I used faith to back my stance. Please do not place ideas in my head. Simply understand the points I am make and if you would like clarification, just ask. [quote]So I will piss into the wind anyway…[/quote] I refuse to help you with that.

Now this beginning portion is from 39 and you, Brian never addressed the point, so please do. Now please finish conversing with me, rather than try to make a point and then leave.

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Please clarify in what you mean. I just want to understand your point of view completely.

Do not worry about missing a day to reply to my post previously. Life has a way of changing and schedules differ each day. I will always reply to a discussion, when time allows. With a newborn at home, I will not always have time to spare. Even though I eventually will.

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
Kneedragger,

Fine I will change it to a 1 second old cluster of cells, everything else stays the same.[/quote] [/quote]

1048

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Are you on a break from building out your brothers house? Good thing he’s not paying you huh? If you put the same commitment into that house as you do your Christian faith…well he better keep an eye on you.

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
How about it becomes a human when it can live outside the womb, that is a pretty easy answer isn’t it? What’s that about 5 months?[/quote]

How about some that are born prematurely before that and actually live?

Do they ZEB, really? Right now it looks like 21 weeks is the record (that is about 5 months), I couldn’t find any documented younger than that.

How about when they can feel pain which is just about immediately?

If by immediately you mean a few months then okay:

"According to a British study by the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, a human fetus cannot feel pain before the age of 24 weeks. It echoes an American study which put the age at 28 weeks.

The new study says that nerve connections in the brain are not sufficiently formed to allow pain perception before then. Even after 24 weeks, the doctors in the study say there is increasing evidence that the fetus is in a state of “continuous sleep-like unconsciousness or sedation.”

[quote]I am not sure that you folks will accept anything other than conception as an answer though, even though a zygote is no more a person than a squirrel is, your claim that it is a person is based on faith masquerading as science, and I have already conceded that your faith will remain intact regardless of any evidence provided. So I will piss into the wind anyway…
[/quote]

Well when you speak it makes about as much sense as someone passing wind.

You have to take into consideration that some people are actually (unlike you) not hypocritical. We try to live our faith. We have a really hard time attending a church where we break all of its rules yet still call ourselves Christians. Maybe it’s about having a conscience.

[/quote]

Live your faith ZEB, but try to remember that faith and science are not the same. A single celled organism is not a human being.

1049

People don’t typically name zygotes, it’s silly.

ZEB, I never said I was going to help him build, you should take a reading comprehension class.

1050

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

Like not being able to determine gender?[/quote]

Wow…good point…because it isn’t human until gender differentiation?

What about hermaphrodites?[/quote]

This is not really too far out of character for him. I’m not joking.

He does seem to be trying harder than usual to make as little sense as possible right now, I will say.

1051

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

Is there a reason they can’t have a name though?[/quote]

The pseudo-Socratic method thing is not working out for you, dude. Please make your point or stop throwing this thread off track.

I have asked, what, this is either the fourth or fifth time now, I’m losing count: When does a conceived human become a human being? Have you got an answer for this, or are you going to continue with the Wayne’s World impression?

I am STILL waiting on an answer to this simple question from someone. Please. What is so hard about this? If you can’t answer this simple, fundamental question, wouldn’t it be a pretty good idea to recuse yourselves from any further discussions of abortion until you can?

1052

So what changes to make a zygote into a human? Please provide science. I know you have access to the internet so please find science from a credible source.

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
People don’t typically name zygotes, it’s silly.[/quote]

1053

This might be interesting for many here on this thread.

Webcast tonight! http://www.ExposingTheLie.com/

will feature former abortion clinic workers as they tell their stories about WHY they first got into the abortion industry, WHAT made them become pro-life, and HOW we can convert abortion workers to the side of life.

It’s at 7:00pm central time. Just put your name and email address here to register!!

1054

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

Is there a reason they can’t have a name though?[/quote]

The pseudo-Socratic method thing is not working out for you, dude. Please make your point or stop throwing this thread off track.

I have asked, what, this is either the fourth or fifth time now, I’m losing count: When does a conceived human become a human being? Have you got an answer for this, or are you going to continue with the Wayne’s World impression?

I am STILL waiting on an answer to this simple question from someone. Please. What is so hard about this? If you can’t answer this simple, fundamental question, wouldn’t it be a pretty good idea to recuse yourselves from any further discussions of abortion until you can? [/quote]

Going to save us some time. If you really want an answer to that question just google it. You will find some some bad answers and maybe some “decent” ones that you’ll end up disagreeing with anyway. I might have a similar question for you but I already know the answer and will disagree.

1055

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Big_Dave wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Big_Dave wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:

[i]The organization reports that there was an 11 percent decrease in babies born with Down Syndrome between 1989 and 2006, when there should have been an estimated 42 percent increase.[/i]

[/quote]

Is this supposed to be a bad thing? It’s great that people have a choice of whether or not they want to spend their lives raising a down syndrome child. [/quote]

So, feel free to correct me, but I can’t see any other possible way of reading your post than,“Eugenics is great!” There isn’t even an attempt to mask the pure selfish evil of your statement. And yes, I most certainly did use the word evil. Monstrous evil.

Wow. I can’t wait till this thread hits max posts and gets locked out and kneedragger starts a new one; so that all of the people who won’t bother getting into a thread that is so long can start fresh, and see the staggeringly sick ideas of morality that are on full display here.

You do realize who else gets sucked limb from tiny limb through that glass vacuum tube in your lovely little world here, don’t you? Girls. Lots and lots of girls. Do you think that’s also great?

Well now. You have to. Don’t you?
[/quote]

To try to argue that I am in favor of eugenics is disingenuous. I did not state that people should have to abort their fetuses that have genetic abnormalities. I merely said I think it’s great that people have a choice. If you want to raise a child with downs that is your personal choice, but people should not be forced to have children that they do not want.

Why should I care if girl fetuses are aborted? It does not affect my life in any way. If someone doesn’t want a girl or a boy they should have the choice to terminate their pregnancy. Last time I checked you were not the one that was going to have to raise the eventual child, so why do you care so much about something that does not affect you at all? [/quote]

Call me old-fashioned, I’m just not too keen on people indiscriminately murdering other human beings, particularly self-serving murderers who rip the limbs off and suck the brains out of the most innocent among us before tossing the remains into a medical waste bag and throwing it in a bin to rot before disposal.

First: Yes, you most certainly DO support eugenics.

Next: They are HUMAN girls at the fetal stage of development. I understand exactly why you use the word “fetus,” though. You have to.

You wanna stick around for this? I’ll have you admitting to absolute nihilism or twisting yourself into semantic pretzels attempting to stay out of cognitive dissonance. Yes, that is a challenge.

Or, perhaps, you’ll do what so many other of your ilk have done, and bravely run away.

We can start here: Exactly when does a conceived human become a human being?

Since you are so quick with your opinions, certainly you have an answer to this question. Let’s hear it.
[/quote]

Unless your Clint Eastwood in a western movie, humans have names. You will never heard a murder trial verdict read as “for the count of murder of the human with no name, we find the defendant guilty”.[/quote]

Oh darn that’s not true. Many times the murder victim is referred to as “John Doe” because the court is unaware of what the victims name is, or even if he had one.

Now what?

[/quote]

Do they not have a name, or is the name just unknown?[/quote]

We don’t know do we? There are plenty of grave stones that are unnamed. But there’s still a person buried there.

[/quote]

Is there a reason they can’t have a name though?[/quote]

Is there a reason someone cannot be alive and not have a name?[/quote]

Like not being able to determine gender?[/quote]

Which has nothing to do with life.

1056

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Are you on a break from building out your brothers house? Good thing he’s not paying you huh? If you put the same commitment into that house as you do your Christian faith…well he better keep an eye on you.

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
How about it becomes a human when it can live outside the womb, that is a pretty easy answer isn’t it? What’s that about 5 months?[/quote]

How about some that are born prematurely before that and actually live?

Do they ZEB, really? Right now it looks like 21 weeks is the record (that is about 5 months), I couldn’t find any documented younger than that.

How about when they can feel pain which is just about immediately?

If by immediately you mean a few months then okay:

"According to a British study by the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, a human fetus cannot feel pain before the age of 24 weeks. It echoes an American study which put the age at 28 weeks.

The new study says that nerve connections in the brain are not sufficiently formed to allow pain perception before then. Even after 24 weeks, the doctors in the study say there is increasing evidence that the fetus is in a state of “continuous sleep-like unconsciousness or sedation.”

[quote]I am not sure that you folks will accept anything other than conception as an answer though, even though a zygote is no more a person than a squirrel is, your claim that it is a person is based on faith masquerading as science, and I have already conceded that your faith will remain intact regardless of any evidence provided. So I will piss into the wind anyway…
[/quote]

Well when you speak it makes about as much sense as someone passing wind.

You have to take into consideration that some people are actually (unlike you) not hypocritical. We try to live our faith. We have a really hard time attending a church where we break all of its rules yet still call ourselves Christians. Maybe it’s about having a conscience.

[/quote]

Live your faith ZEB, but try to remember that faith and science are not the same. A single celled organism is not a human being.[/quote]

You don’t know when life begins in the womb. Hence, killing an unborn fetus is a very bad idea.

That not only puts you at odds with your faith but also pure logic.

1057

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
People don’t typically name zygotes, it’s silly.

ZEB, I never said I was going to help him build, you should take a reading comprehension class.[/quote]

You sure implied it:

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
My brother just read this thread and asked me if I had so much spare time maybe I could drive down to his house and help with building his in-law suite.[/quote]

So save your reading comp insults B r i a n.

You’re not only a light weight and a hypocrite but a liar too.

1058

Kneedragger,

it is solely a matter of what each person believes constitutes a human being (pre-birth that is), the science doesn’t distinguish human/non-human but it does distinguish viable/non-viable. Again, I am not in support of abortion on a personal level, though I very clearly see why people choose it, aborting a non-viable fetus at 6 weeks, or taking the morning after pill and getting rid of a zygote is not the same thing as killing an actual living person, additionally the difference between abortion at 6 weeks and abortion at 30 weeks (where the fetus would very well survive outside the womb) is quite substantial as well. Science will probably look at a zygote and determine that it is a very immature human (not human in total but with the possibility of becoming a viable human if given the necessary resources) so maybe we should try to split hairs even more and say it is Human (the tissue is human, the cellular structure is human, 26 chromosomes etc) but does that make it a human being, I would say that in its early stages it doesn’t meet the pre-requisistes for being called a human being.

1059

ZEB,

Where in that statement do I imply anything except that arguing religion is a waste of time? You are getting dumber each time you post.

1060

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
Kneedragger,

it is solely a matter of what each person believes constitutes a human being (pre-birth that is), the science doesn’t distinguish human/non-human but it does distinguish viable/non-viable. Again, I am not in support of abortion on a personal level, though I very clearly see why people choose it, aborting a non-viable fetus at 6 weeks, or taking the morning after pill and getting rid of a zygote is not the same thing as killing an actual living person, additionally the difference between abortion at 6 weeks and abortion at 30 weeks (where the fetus would very well survive outside the womb) is quite substantial as well. Science will probably look at a zygote and determine that it is a very immature human (not human in total but with the possibility of becoming a viable human if given the necessary resources) so maybe we should try to split hairs even more and say it is Human (the tissue is human, the cellular structure is human, 26 chromosomes etc) but does that make it a human being, I would say that in its early stages it doesn’t meet the pre-requisistes for being called a human being.

[/quote]

Good post. And the ultimate proof that you are correct, the fact we are all arguing about this in the first place.