T Nation

9/11 - Time To Make You Think

It would seem most everyone here believes the official story of 9/11 but I thought I’d put this out there to open up some minds a little bit. It’s a short Quicktime movie that points out many things about the Pentagon crash of Flight 77 that challenge the “official story” in a pretty matter-of-fact way. If you have problems viewing, just right click on link and save.

http://www.photographyandartbycarl.com/911/pentagon911.mov

Before you just dismiss this as “conspiracy theory” just know there is no theory in this, just obvious things that put a big question mark over everything you might think you know.

At the risk of ridcule I’m willing to step out and say I think the official story is bogus. For 2 years I took the stance that anything other than the official story was complete BS and that I was too smart to even give it consideration. I dismissed everything as “conspiracy theory” without keeping an open mind.

Once you SEE the evidence (or lack of) at the Pentagon, it just gives you this sinking feeling like, how could it be that obvious…and if you question that, you have to question everything.

If the clip peaks your interest, here is a PDF of the book, “The New Pearl Harbor” to expand your awareness. Again, not theory so much as facts, questions, timelines and physics of why hard questions need to be asked and answered.

http://www.photographyandartbycarl.com/911/TheNewPearlHarbor.pdf

One last thing, I welcome criticism but a response of, that’s ridiculous, or insane, or not possible without looking at the facts surrounding 9/11 is completely irresponsible given the possibility that 9/11 is the reason we’re in Iraq and may turn out to be the catalyst for WWIII.

If your having trouble getting your head around the concept, work backwards. Think of all the reasons for going into Iraq that turned out not to be.

Think about our government spending $50 million to investigate the shuttle disaster…$70 million to investigate Pres Clinton…$15 million to investigate the greatest act of terrorism in the world.

" A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep. "
–Benjamin Franklin

Well I will tell you one thing. I walk by a big hole in the ground in Battery Park City every week that used to be the Twin Towers.

I am pretty sure I know who caused it.

We have to stop blaming ourselves and everyone else for what Islamic Terrorists did to our country.

my friend sent this out to my group of friends last night. I’ll cut and paste what i responded with.

"i cant remember where i read something ripping this speculation apartt…i think it might have been on snopes.com but i dont remember. Although this one was a lot more comprehensive and a lot more detailed than the one they take apart…its interesting, but i am sure there is some kind of evidence that is being ommitted.

I guess I would also have to say, Whats the Point of the government doing this? ITs pretty clear that a big fucking jet flew into the twin towers…so its not like that was a military plane…so what would the government, assuming it could act in such a manner, gain by also attacking the pentagon? if i recall barbara olsen made a call from that plane…wife of solicitor general ted olson…right before it crashed…although maybe that was in pennsylvania one."

hedo -
Sorry to hear you have a visual reminder of that constantly. As far as the official story goes, you may be correct as to who…but it’s either one of two scenarios. We either knew about it and let it happen or we did it outright…and up until a year ago I was a complete skeptic.

I would venture to say that most rational people who are willing to look at the facts objectively, soon realize the hijacker theory falls apart almost immediately. To believe the official account, you would have to that either -

(a) Believe that every standard operating procedure for intercepting wayward aircraft broke down that day through an improbable wave of incompetence on every level.

(b) Believe that more coincidences occurred that day than every episode of Seinfeld put together.

Biltritewave -
The second link in my initial post is a 143pg pdf of the book “The New Pearl Harbor” by David Ray Griffin. I would suggest you check it out and decide for yourself. As far as tearing the story apart, I have listened to many stories on both sides of the issue and while both sides have valid points, the omission is almost always on the side of the “official story”.

The Pentagon is a great starting point…people can try and tear this video and conflicting story apart all they want but it has one key element that you really can’t ignore, and that is [b]NO BOEING 757.[/b] You at least need THAT to continue to support the official story. People can say all they want about the whole plane and wings being sucked into the hole and vaporized but common sense says that’s unlikely given other evidence. More likely it was some kind of smaller aircraft. Here is a good analysis:
http://guardian.150m.com/pentagon/what-hit-it.htm

Lets say you do believe it “vaporized”, then you have to ask…how then did they have enough DNA left to identify 64 out of 65 passengers in this incredible inferno that BTW, left office furniture and a book on a stool right next to the entrance hole untouched. In the WTC these raging fuel fires supposedly brought down 3 towers, one not even being hit, and at the Pentagon you see a book laying open?

Also why not simply release the other video footage taken from area cameras. If it shows a 757, why not release it and remove doubt?

And since you mentioned cell phone calls:
In-flight cell phones ‘worked great’ in test
“The race is on to enable airline passengers to make and receive cell phone calls in flight. In-flight cell service could be introduced within two years and become commonplace within four, developers believe.”
[USA Today - July 9, 2004]
http://www.usatoday.com/money/biztravel/2004-07-19-aircells_x.htm

As for why or who in our government would do it -“Project for the New American Century”
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/nightline/DailyNews/pnac_030310.html

Also see my post in “Sign-up Sheet for Iraq” and check out the download as well.

[quote]JustTheFacts wrote:
hedo -
Sorry to hear you have a visual reminder of that constantly. As far as the official story goes, you may be correct as to who…but it’s either one of two scenarios. We either knew about it and let it happen or we did it outright…and up until a year ago I was a complete skeptic.

I would venture to say that most rational people who are willing to look at the facts objectively, soon realize the hijacker theory falls apart almost immediately. To believe the official account, you would have to that either -

(a) Believe that every standard operating procedure for intercepting wayward aircraft broke down that day through an improbable wave of incompetence on every level.

(b) Believe that more coincidences occurred that day than every episode of Seinfeld put together.
[/quote]

Not at all true. You’re operating under the assumption that a) you actually know SAP for intercepting aircraft; and b) that the flights were classified as threats that needed to be interecepted from the get go. Remember, before this, terrorists didn’t crash planes into buildings – they hijacked planes, asked for money, killed some passengers, etc.

THe problem with using regular phones is interference with plane instruments and ground signals, not that it would be impossible to make calls.

[quote]

As for why or who in our government would do it -“Project for the New American Century”
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/nightline/DailyNews/pnac_030310.html

Also see my post in “Sign-up Sheet for Iraq” and check out the download as well.[/quote]

Uh oh – scary think tank with people involved who are actually trying to modernize the military and change it - why would we want to do that given the military was built to deal with one monolithic threat? Must be a plot to take over the world.

Please apply this post to your other posts as well.

first of all, I would like to say that no one can read your posts without spending an hour doing so.

second of all, instead of giving us a link to a bazillion-page article/book you could summarize it and give us an idea of what the hell you’re talking about.

third, I don;t need an article to show me that 9/11 was planned on both sides and it’s all some sort of huge thing to get us to keep the bush dynasty in power…

[quote]hedo wrote:

I am pretty sure I know who caused it.

[/quote]

Who, hedo – Who caused it?

Because I have a thread asking everyone what they think was the priority after 9/11 – do you think it should have been who caused 9/11 or someone else that we’ve given far more attention to?

That video is pretty heavy.

What is the government’s response to this?

I almost refuse to believe that our government was behind the 9/11 attacks. I can’t bring myself to imagine that our world and our country has come to that.

However, why there is no plane remnants seems to be a pretty good question, and why we can’t see the videos that are available of the attacks is another.

[quote]zhavas wrote:

third, I don;t need an article to show me that 9/11 was planned on both sides and it’s all some sort of huge thing to get us to keep the bush dynasty in power…

[/quote]

I find that to be rather ridiculous. Do you have any proof that President Bush sacrificed 3000 Americans for a two term presidency?

Dustin

Vote Third Party
Peroutka in 04

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm

Biltritewave wrote: (sorry about name, from memory)
Not at all true. You’re operating under the assumption that a) you actually know SAP for intercepting aircraft; and b) that the flights were classified as threats that needed to be interecepted from the get go. Remember, before this, terrorists didn’t crash planes into buildings – they hijacked planes, asked for money, killed some passengers, etc.

These exact things are dealt with in detail in the referenced ‘book.’ I found a better copy here:

http://www.vancouver.indymedia.org/print.php?id=141355#chap1

It’s a pretty scary read. If you have a couple hours (hey, maybe you don’t need to read some T-Nation articles right now…) then check it out.

The link Doogie posted is countered quite extensively in the online book. The one that interests me the most is the claim that while all large sections of the plane were destroyed in the crash and subequent fire, enough DNA evidence was left to identify 63 out of 64 victims (about that number…), and it was even earlier claimed that they used fingerprints for some. To me it seems like the two are mutually exclusive.

For people who want a QUICK summary (of first 4 Chapters):
WTC towers were demolished by internally placed bombs.
Pentagon was hit by a missle.
Flight 93 was shot down because the terrorists DIDN’T have control anymore.
Obviously he goes into a lot more detail…

Of course by biltritewave I meant bostonbarrister…sorry! : )

[quote]doogie wrote:
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm[/quote]

Doogie:

Ah, why didn’t I check old faithful Snopes? Thanks.

[quote]JustTheFacts wrote:
The Pentagon is a great starting point…people can try and tear this video and conflicting story apart all they want but it has one key element that you really can’t ignore, and that is [b]NO BOEING 757.[/b] You at least need THAT to continue to support the official story. People can say all they want about the whole plane and wings being sucked into the hole and vaporized but common sense says that’s unlikely given other evidence. [/quote]

It wasn’t a Boeing? Gee, that’s odd. A psychologist I knew lost his mentor on Flight 77…you think she’s living in Brazil with Elvis?

Maybe Barbara Olson, wife of Ted Olson (who’s the U.S. Solicitor General at the Supreme Court), who was a CNN commentator is there along with her. Haven’t seen her on CNN since 9/11, but she’s probably in hiding somewhere and Ted’s just pretending she’s dead then jets over to see her whereever she’s at when he goes on vacation.

I also know a number of people who looked out the window and actually saw the plane just before impact and they were close to the area that was hit. I guess they were hallucinating, eh?


Oh yeah, I was there too. Came in the next day and I could smell the smoke mixed with the jet fuel. But you probably have an explanation for that as well.

I’ve seen these conspiracy sites before and not one of their authors has ever actually been to the Pentagon site to see the crash site for themselves. The hole caused by the impact was much bigger than what you saw on your tv screen or in any photograph.

zhavas-
Sorry, I know how hard reading can be for you.
I just wanted to give enough details that people might become curious and want to check it for themselves before dismissing it. If someone makes their decision based solely on what I say, that’s no good either.

Also, thank you BostonBarrier for supporting my entire point of this post. Your stance seems to be “not possible” therefore no further investigation is needed…good logic…Bill O’Reilly would be proud.

Instead of looking at the info provided, (like Bob423 easily did) you automatically assumed that I had no idea what “Standard Operating Procedure” for military intercept was. By your answer I do not need to assume, that you do not.

In fact SOP for “intercept” (shoot down is different) is very matter-of-fact. If any plane deviates off course more than marginally and does not respond to radio contact, FAA notifies NORAD and a fighter jet is scrambled within minutes. The fighter pilot does several things to get the other pilot’s attention and establish visual communication. If all attempts fail, the decision then has to be made to shoot down by commanding authority. The intercept itself is Standard Procedure and the fact that four hijacked jets could fly over the East Coast for two hours without that happening when the average response time up until 9/11 was less than 20 minutes is astronomically impossible without orders to stand down, given that:

  1. Andrews AFB [11 miles SE of DC].
  2. Bolling AFB [3 miles south of US CAPITOL].
  3. Dover AFB [3 miles southeast of Dover, DE]
  4. Hanscom AFB [17 miles northwest of Boston]
  5. Langley AFB [3 miles north of Hampton, VA]
  6. McGuire AFB [18 miles SE of Trenton,NJ]

“Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.” - Aldous Huxley

[quote]For all of this, there is a simple explanation. I will assume the Pentagon has some sort of missle and air defense system – I don’t think that’s a stretch. Assuming your tapes exist, confiscating them to protect information about the nature of the Pentagon air defense system would be expected. Also, to the extent the system was activated, I am sure missles/guns were shot at the plane as it came in – this would have caused some “vaporization” as you say, but would not preclude part of the front of the plane from hitting the wall with great force – assuming the nose of the plane was intact, it could easily have punched a hole in the wall, given the speed at which it would have been traveling.
[/quote]

Even if “missile defense” would be a secret, striking the plane over the lawn would leave at least some wreckage outside of the Pentagon well visible. Also explained in the book, the “official story” said there was no missile defense but that doen’t seem to be the case…and if there was, why didn’t it work?

Instead of being irritated with people wanting to know hard questions, you should be irritated with the government trying to insult your intelligence by getting you to believe there is wreckage of a 100 ton Boeing 757 in front of the firefighters in the photos minutes after the crash.

“Cellular experts privately admit that they’re surprised the calls were able to be placed from the hijacked planes, and that they lasted as long as they did.”
-The Travel Technologist [Sept 19,2001]

But even more importantly, the victims families want to know why these calls didn’t show up on their statements?

Donald Rumsfeld, the Defense Secretary, says he has told the Pentagon to “think the unthinkable”.

Vice President Dick Cheney, the voice of Bush, has said the US is considering military or other action against “40 to 50 countries” and warns that the new war may last 50 years or more.

A Bush adviser, Richard Perle, explained. “(There will be) no stages,” he said.
“This is total war. We are fighting a variety of enemies. There are lots of them out there … If we just let our vision of the world go forth, and we embrace it entirely, and we don’t try to piece together clever diplomacy but just wage a total war, our children will sing great songs about us years from now.”

The "widening gap between the world’s “haves” and “have nots”’, says a remarkably candid document of the US Space Command, presents “new challenges” to the world’s superpower and which can only be met by “Full Spectrum Dominance” - dominance of land, sea, air and space.

Ahhh, I see your point…I’ve been reading too much into statements like those…

I think I also see your logic…since they said they wouldn’t bring back the draft…those statements can’t be true.

Hey I feel better already!

90% of the footnotes in that PDF kook-book cite other kook-books. What is the point of that?

Justthefacts:

See Doogie’s snopes citation above. It’s significantly shorter than that monstrous pdf to which you linked and that I don’t have time to read.

See also:

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/06/18/1087245105891.html?from=storylhs&oneclick=true

http://www.guardian.co.uk/september11/story/0,11209,1241775,00.html

It’s nice to believe that everything was understood, and to try to reconfigure times for responses and whatnot based on an idea that everything was known at precisely the time it occurred, and how timing should have worked out in ideal circumstances, but in the real world things are more chaotic.

It’s also interesting to look back through the haystack for pieces of evidence that show “we should have known they were going to attack with planes.” I’m sure that if I looked right now I could find warnings that we could be attacked in any way from terrorists taking over a nuclear power plant to using chemical/biological agents to poison our food supply. If one of those does happen, I’m sure you will be the first to forward a new theory about how we allowed it to happen to further our plot to take over the world.

The problem is that as defenders, we need to be right about everything, 1,000,000 times a day to be successful. The attackers need only find and focus on one weakness. Throughout history, that is how it has worked, and simply being unprepared for one contingency does not, to a logically thinking person, imply some sort of fraud.

BTW, just out of curiousity, what is your explanation for Flight 77? Did we shoot it out of the sky ourselves? 'Cause the people who were on that flight are dead.

Here are some further good links:

Steeljack- There is no getting around this was a tragic event and I can only imagine how hard it was to work there after that. To tell you and “BB” where I thought those people are, would really be conspiracy theory but surely they’re no longer alive. If they found out it really wasn’t a Boeing after all, then you would have to ask…

The real problem people are having is that the physical evidence doesn’t fit the scene. Unfortunately the victims families (especially) want more proof. Family and others who demand accountability would gladly accept, and want to believe, that there was a Boeing 757 in that hole. That gaping hole was not so gaping until the roof collapsed.

We have a crash scene that looks nothing like the crash of a large jetliner…but still perfectly understandable.

Then release the confiscated footage from area surveillance cameras, at least to the families.

They have conflicting reports of either almost no plane or quite a bit, but no one has been allowed to see it.

Black boxes?

Eyewitness accounts are conflicting…which makes people question even more.

A surveillance clip showing impact, frames that actually show the jet are missing.

The “Snopes” debunking site mentioned by “BB” and all the other sites that like I said, omit serious hard questions
A wing “theory” that defies the laws of physics, folding back upon impact. BTW, Purdue University did a “to scale” computer crash simulation (which happens to be really good). Trouble is, they had to make the jet fit existing crash dimensions. Needless to say the plane hit the ground, the wings didn’t “fold back” and the tail stayed mostly outside.
http://news.uns.purdue.edu/html4ever/020910.Sozen.Pentagon.html

They didn’t explain the DNA positive ID of 63 individuals when the total 80 or so ton of aluminum and stainless steel was consumed.

Explain the official report of this intense inferno but then see an open book and office furniture directly next to the hole.

Explain a completely incompetent pilot flying a 757 like air traffic control described as “a fighter jet”…again video footage?

Why wasn’t the Pentagon evacuated even after both towers had been hit and it was known other hijacked planes were in the air, especially since this would be considered target uno.

Then there is the Barbara Olson phone call:

"Barbara Olson made two calls, collect, to her husband at his government office from Flight 77 as it made its way to the Pentagon.

Each call was initially reported as coming from a cellphone. Later, when skepticism reared its ugly head, the narrative became fuzzy; it was suggested that $10-a-minute Airfones were involved. Olson was an easy candidate for Airfone (one doesn’t call collect from a cell), but as the stories developed, Olson- and Felt- were said to have called from inside locked lavatories. No Airfone there."

Sarcastic but accurate. I won’t even mention the Ted Olson / Bush connection…

So without answers to those perfectly legitimate questions…the families are asked to believe they are looking at photos of a plane crash with NO PLANE.

I also encourage everyone to look at both sides of the issue, I’m glad you put up those links. You start to see the pattern very quickly in those. Basically calling the people kooks like in the Time article while just repeating the official story.

Like he was completely shocked that this “kook” could (discount expert explanations that the extreme violence of the impact and heat of the explosion caused virtual atomization of the jet). Remember the DNA and fingerprints?

But the Perdue study shows a good bit of plane left, but the official story said it “atomized”!!??

But let’s just take their word for it…