T Nation

8 weeker


#1

I?m going to be starting a cycle soon and I have a few questions before I do. I have used the search engine but haven?t found a definitive answer. The cycle is as follows:

Weeks 1-8: tren 70mg ed
Weeks 1-6 sust 250mg eod (front load at double weekly dose)
Weeks 7-8 prop 125mg ed
Weeks 1-9 adex .5 eod

I will front clomid at 300mg first day and 100mg for the next 6 days. Continue clomid therapy at 50mg per day for at least 4 more weeks. Clenbuterol .40mcg/day for two weeks. My questions are:

How long after final injection do I wait to start clomid?
Do I need hcg, if so how much and when?
I will have nolva on hand. If estrogenic sides occur, how much nolva do I use?

Thank you, P-DOG


#2

yeah how long will esters still be active in system, and when are they low enough level that recovery should be started i.e. clomid?


#3

i too am curious, as i will be starting a similar cycle. i will be using sus for 4 weeks and from what i have read it takes 3-4 weeks for sust to be out of your system. i will be using test-prop for the weeks 4-8. and also how much is dose size a factor? that is 600mg per week vs 1000? you would think that since it is almost twice the amount it would take twice as long?


#4

since your ending the cycle with propionate i would say a week post should be fine to start clomid. the hcg should be run throughout on a every weekend protocol at 250-500 i.u's sat and sunday. if you need the nolva i would say 20mgs/ed in split doses on top of the adex should be fine. looks like your gonna have some fun!


#5

oh, also. sprinklein some dbol for a nice jumpstart


#6

DRAGO
this is my first mass cycle and don't want to over do it. do you really think dbol is necessary?


#7

Yes, the d-bol is very necessary. It is like the powdered sugar on french toast. It's like Oreo cookies and milk....keeps your tren from getting lonely.


#8

No the dbol isn't necessary. You can use it if you want.
As drago stated you should be able to get some benefits from the clomid after about a week. I would probably continue the adex for a couple more weeks it will help keep you from getting soft and fat post cycle. Eat good and train well and you should do pretty well with that cycle.


#9

Oh come on spook, you're kidding yourself. This man has an all androgenic stack. As we all know this is NO GOOD!!! Your receptors would have a lot to deal with just using the tren alone. Throw a gram of sust on top of it and you are wasting your money. The optimal mass gain cycle has an anabolic to androgenic ratio of 7 to 3. You are far outbalancing this equation by using nothing but androgens. Yes, they have anabolic properties but nowhere near the anabolic goodness of a d-bol, anadrol, or winstrol. Throw on the d-bol and cut back on your sust. Yes, the d-bol is absolutely necessary.


#10

i sense a good debate coming on. good for me i will benefit from all the opposing view points. more food for thought...


#11

i am not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone because i dont know enough about this stuff to do so, however squatty's post got me thinking. i did some research and found these quotes from Bill Roberts in regards to the a/a ratio. im not sure if this is relevant:

"I could look up the values for relative effect on rat prostate (so-called androgenic index) and rat levator ani (so-called anabolic index) and tell you the ratio, but the ratio is of little meaning. It would be best to forget the entire concept and instead to focus on actually relevant facts such as whether a given androgen is metabolized by 5alpha reductase or not, and if so to what effect, what observed stacking behavior the compound has with other steroids, whether the compound aromatizes, etc."

"Also don't worry about so-called "anabolic/androgenic ratios"... these are in fact the ratios of activity in the levator ani of the rat (a non-skeletal muscle, that doesn't respond at all the same as skeletal muscle, which is analogous to the pubococcygeous (PCG) muscle in man) to the activity in the prostate and/or seminal vesicles of the rat. As it happens, the "anabolic" value is not a very good predictor of efficacy for athletes in muscle anabolism, and the "androgenic" value is not a very good predictor of adverse side effects either. So in other words, each number is a rather poor predictor, and the ratio is no better. I would forget about it completely."


#12

Tren test cycles kick ass squatty. I don't care about any ratios. The tren would be more anabolic anyway.


#13

lmao ru. what a nut. good posts all


#14

To say a Tren/test cycle is only an Androgenic stack is absurd, so i'd like to say a few things. Regardless of the mgs used, Test is quite anabolic as well as androgenic. You can't use the AA ratio in terms of rating the effectiveness of a cycle. Also, your receptor sites would not "have a lot to deal with" because of Trenbolone. The difference between test and Trenbolone when it comes to the Affinity to the receptor is that Trenbolone has a much lower rate of binding to proteins in the blood, which therefor make the actual androgen temporarily inactive to the receptor. That is one reason why Trenbolone is said to be "up to 3x's more active then test" But you have to remember that your body metabolizes androgens everyday of your life. So it would be quite hard for your body to have a lot to deal with by only introducing one androgen, such as Tren.
Now speaking about test, this is one of the ONLY androgens that can be used by itself in good dosages with the user being able to expect good gains in mass and strength. Meaning that there is sufficient anabolism for growth as well as androgens to increase strength.
In fact, I would dare anyone to go up to any succesful bodybuilder or athlete and say that Test/tren is "no good" and you will be laughed at hysterically. But I do understand that perspective because when I first started pushing the idea of Test/tren on this website a few years ago everyone was asking me why or saying that that combo was ineffective. Or saying "no no, Anadrol is the only way to go for mass". But stop, take a look around and tell me who does NOT use Test/tren cycles these days for their best gains??

But enough rambling now, sorry. My best gains to date have been Test/tren cycles. So this stack is one of the best for many. If you are more aggressive or have a harder time breaking through plateau's, the addition of Dbol is VERY nice in this stack...although let me clearly state that it is NOT necessary. It's mainly a issue of goals.


#15

thanks everyone for the replies. im going to go with sust and tren this time. i will use some d-bol in the future though. i have already used tren and i know how i react to it. now i will find out what a test/tren is like. i do see a test/tren/dbol in my near future!!!


#16

Ummmm......... Yeah, what trenfreak said dammit!


#17

The pro's have spoken, so what little I can add is......well, very little to nothing.

I have read that test/tren, although both class ones, produce a synergistic effect and are quite effective.

Could one expect similar effects with Equipoise and Tren?


#18

I just wanted to state for the record that Ru12nvmes' statements were what he would call "Joking around" I thought the french toast powdered sugared thing and oreo cookie thing would give it away. Just have to clarify. In total honesty ru12nvme feels the d bol is not necessary but could be beneficial :slightly_smiling:

See what you started again Ru...gees.


#19

If you subscribe to the theory of "class I + II" steroids, which I do, (mainly because I certainly don't know enough to refute Bill R AND its always worked for me as a good rule of thumb for building cycles.) Test could best be described as being both 1 and 2
this is why test is one of the only substances that will give you good strength and weight gains when taken by itself.. Eq and tren would both be considered class I and IMO and experience would not go well together. I remember about 2 years ago Brock posting that an eq-tren-primo cycle would be good, at that time I hung on every word that guys like him posted so I tried it. It was a for shit cycle. Or atleast not a good cycle in terms of what I would normally expect from a good cycle. I ended up putting in dbol about 3 weeks in and then started to see some gains.


#20

Yeah, french toast and oreos do sound good RU, thanks. As for the theory of class 1 & 2 steroids, it holds true but only to a certain degree. Cycles such as Eq and tren would really not be that effective. They sound good though. EQ being mainly anabolic and Tren being very androgenic as well as anabolic. If you were to add test, that would make the cycle much more effective. Like spook said, Test has the effects of both classes so to say. It causes strength gains as well as increasing Anabolism to a very good degree. This only makes sense being that this is the primary hormone in the male body.
As an example, look what happens at puberty. Your Test levels peak and are at an all time high. And in response, you grow more muscle, your voice changes, you grow more hair and so on. So if test were not anabolic we would be screwed during puberty. I call each one of my cycles "puberty revisited"