T Nation

8 week cycle-Bill or Brock

There’s a lot of conflicting advice to consider when planning a cycle.
As this isn’t exactly my first cycle - I’ll be using 1000mg/week of Testosterone, but what do I stack with it?

  1. Dianabol at 50mg/day - but you shouldn’t stay on D-bol too long because of its toxicity…
  2. Deca at 400mg/week = various problems, including “Deca-dick” and hair-loss.
  3. Trenbolone = Class I? so it wouldn’t complement Test’s lacking in Class II… (I’m not so convinced on this whole Class-issue either)
  4. Primo = expensive, nuff said…
  5. Winstrol = daily injections are a hassle+expensive+the toxicity issue that D-bol also have.

So should I just stay with high doses of T alone? What? When I feel that I have good stack figured out, I read something contradicting it…
Please help!

OK, well, if you are not sure about whether
or not all anabolic steroids might actually
work the exact same way so you get the same
gains no matter what you use, then try this:

Deca only.

Dianabol only.

Go high in dose with each, see what the
maximum effectiveness you can get is.

Now try Deca + Dianabol.

Obviously I could go into more detail than
that and have in the past, but that should
suffice. It is a demonstrated fact in the
scientific literature that there is more than
one mode of anabolism from anabolic steroids,
at least one of which is not via the androgen

You say that testosterone lacks in non-androgen-receptor-mediated activity (Class II) but that isn’t so, and I’m sure it’s never
been said on T-mag. (Or if it was it would have
been a huge error.) Rather, it’s been referred
to as Class I because the way the definition
was set up was, Class I is steroids that
are effective at the androgen receptor (which
testosterone is) and Class II is steroids which
are effective anabolics though they are not
effective at the androgen receptor.

Since testosterone binds well to the androgen
receptor, it’s Class I, but it (or its metabolites) also is effective in non-AR
means of anabolism.

You can definitely do just testosterone and
get good results… I’d want to use Arimidex
and Proscar as well in this case.

I don’t know why you adding Deca gives a hair
loss problem. This is the androgen least likely
to give hair loss problems (and if Proscar
is being used concurrently, then becomes just
the same as other synthetics in that regard,
instead of better.)

Trenbolone does stack well with T because
even at the gram per week level, T does
not fully saturate the androgen receptors.
Trenbolone will add to that noticeably.

Winstrol does not need to be injected
daily: every other day is fine, but really,
with a 29 gauge insulin needle, the injection
is no hassle and it’s the same effort to
inject 1 cc per day as to inject 1 cc twice
every other day.

You could add Deca to add to the androgen
receptor activity of the 1 gram of T…
if you use 400 mg/week it will be a noticeable
improvement and you probablh won’t get
“Deca dick” though individual results vary.

I wouldn’t worry about using Winstrol for
8 weeks at 50 mg/day, though I wouldn’t go
longer. I’d prefer that to the Dianabol
or the Deca.

Sorry to be naive, but what is “deca dick”?

Deca has some degree of notoriety for
having an effect in reducing libido, though
most users do okay and don’t have a problem
so long as the dose is 400 mg/week or less.

It’s not really known why this is so. Here
are some hypotheses and analyses of them:

  1. Deca has some kind of androgenic activity
    that other androgens do not, and this activity
    acts against libido. Problem: zero evidence
    of any unique androgenic activity; it makes
    little sense that there ARE any androgenic
    activities that testosterone or metabolites
    of testosterone do not have; and there’s
    no reason to think that any sort of androgenic
    activity would reduce libido. Verdict:
    this is not a good explanation.

  2. Estrogenic activity. Problems: Nandrolone
    itself is not known to have any direct
    estrogenic activity; estrogen levels typically
    DROP during a Deca-only cycle; other steroids
    which do product high estrogen levels aren’t
    comparable offenders. Verdict: nope.

  3. Progestagenic activity. Advantages, nandrolone is known, unlike most androgens,
    to have progestagenic activity, so it is
    unusual there and so it makes some sense
    that this unusual effect could be due to
    this unusual activity. Also, stanozolol,
    which is at least something of an antiprogestin (probably not a strong one
    though) seems to counteract this adverse
    effect though that is based on a small
    number of reports and I’d call it just
    the “smart money” bet rather than a sure
    thing. Disadvantages: progesterone doesn’t
    seem to impair libido in women, so why
    assume that it would in men (of course,
    men could differ from women in that regard),
    and Anadrol also seems to have progestagenic
    activity but doesn’t seem to share this
    problem with libido. Verdict: seems reasonable
    but not a sure thing – however, if process
    of elimination eliminates all else, then if
    this theory makes sense it’s the best one.

Corticosteroid activity: Disadvantages,
nandrolone is not unusual in this regard,
there’s no
evidence of anything significant here, no
evidence that any antagonism that might occur
would hurt libido. Verdict: makes no sense.

Other activities: Problem, no evidence, not
even a hint of a suggestion.

So, best bet is that progestagenic activity
of Deca when nandrolone is at high concentrations is what causes the problem.
It would be interesting to verify this
by injecting progesterone to see if the
same problem develops over time, however,
that is one experiment I definitely will
not perform and neither should anyone else.

Oh, there’s one last theory which is not
a bad one. It’s that nandrolone lacks one
or more androgenic activities (not unreasonable, many steroids do and most Class
I steroids like nandrolone are not good
at non-androgen-receptor mediated activities,
and libido is probably cell-membrane-receptor
associated, not AR-associated) and on a high
dose Deca cycle, natural T is shut down, natural DHT is low, and there is no steroid
present that has the needed activity. This
theory would have it though that simply
adding another steroid that sufficed in this
regard would
fix the problem, since the problem is hypothesized to be simply a lack. As mentioned, Winstrol does seem to fix the
problem, but I am not at all sure that most
other steroids do. One reliable source
tells me from personal experience that
even when using plenty of T, if Deca is
in the mix, he has libido problems, so this
suggests the problem is not simply a lack,
as this last theory would have it.

Of course, one need not know the reason, but
just be aware of the potential problem; the
fact that most users don’t have the problem
at doses of 400 mg/week or less; the
observation that Winstrol may help; and
that the problem if it does occur is
reversible on clearance of the Deca (however,
that does take a while.)

what’s deca dick

I’m almost certain that Bill is correct about the cause of Deca’s effect on sexual function. Considering the fact that medroxyprogesterone has been used successfully to suppress the hypersexuality of sex offenders and others with similar sexual behavior. This makes sense. Just my 2 pennies.

Joel- Libido means sex drive. Decreased sex drive can include erectile dysfunction. Spelled out for you “deca dick” means impotent, limp dick, can’t pop a boner, no stiffies…

I feel that the medroxyprogesterone example,
as used in sex offenders to eliminate
their libido, doesn’t show that progestins
themselves directly inhibit libido. It could
be due strictly to lack of androgen:
medroxyprogesterone shuts the HPTA down cold.
What one would need to do to test the theory
would be to take a progestin while supplementing T levels back to normal, and
seeing if libido was effected. I don’t think
anyone has done this.

I did hear of one
short term experiment – single dose – which
yielded no such result but I think it would
take a chronic test to prove anything. It’s
not as if “Deca dick” appears
within hours of the first injection or
anything like that.

I’m aware of the whole synergistic effect issue, Bill - that’s why I asked… Let’s say I did the following: Week 1-6: Sust 1000mg/week (or Sust 500+Tren 375mg? if I can get the Tren), Winstrol 50mg/day…Week 7-8: taper with Primo at 600mg/week+D-bol at 50mg/day…Week 9(-10) D-bol at 25mg morning/noon. Clomid throughout.
Would you modify anything? You can probably see the reasoning behind the various choices…
I expect this to give decent gains with low water retention and good recovery post-cycle. Let me add that I’m 6’, 230lbs, 8%bf, and 2on/4off gave me insufficient gains.

1 gram of T for six weeks will give you more than “low water retention”, not to mention that you’ll be taking 350mg/week of dbol for two weeks in the end. Expect to hold a lot of water and lose a lot of weight (water) post-cycle.

That’s why I add the Winstrol and Clomid - to reduce water retention - I’ve done this successfully in the past. 2 weeks of D-bol (with Clomid) will not lead to a whole lot of water-retention either…Remember that I don’t want to avoid water-retention altogether, (it will benefit strength gains during the cycle) only reduce it to a manageable degree.

I have just finished a course of test at a gram per week, I gained 24 pounds and not much of that is fat. A slight increase in acne and some water retention occured. Before this I did a cycle of dbol at 50 mg per day and gains were only moderate - 7 pounds in 6 weeks.

I´m going to add 400 mg deca for the first 4 weeks followed by 400 mg of primo for 4 weeks -
Test would only be injected for the first 6 weeks as I don´t want any deca or test floating around and suppressing recovery-I want to be off after 60 days. How does this sound ?

Hey blade how much clomid do you use ?
I used 50 mg per day with one gram of test and did note some water retention.

Furthermore I think that one should use more than a gram on day one of the cycle. I go with
2000 mg : 2 cc´s in each glute and thigh.

Wouldn´t higher dosages than one gram of testosterone give pretty severe side effects or
can this be managed by clomid and proscar ?

I’m going 50mg/day of Clomid. Winstrol will further reduce water retention - as well as non-AR mediated effect. And I just forgot to mention that I also shoot a triple dose on day 1 of a cycle.