T Nation

5yrs with Low Test. Tried Clomid Therapy. Looking into TRT


#1

Hi guys

i im 28 years old and have used steroids when i was younger, i didnt compete or anything but i came to a decent level. i went from 90 ks to 124 in only 3 cycles

my cycles was the following

10 weeks 500 mg cypionate, tamoxifen pct

  1. 750 mg testosterone enanthate 12 weeks aromasin pct

  2. 500 mg testosterone for week 1-12 and dianabol week 1-4 no pct

pls dont bash me for going 750 dosage and not taking pct last cycle, i had a really hard time that period with no family, broke 24/7 and studying at the same time. i had to quit because of school, so i stopped taking steroids but still continued to work out , just a little less

thing is i got alot of symptoms . Brainfog, difficult concentrating, low libido, low energy, my gains was non excisting, i gained alot of fatt around my waist area and got depressed on and off and also moody.

i tok a blodtest and it was 200 ng /dl, but since my free Testosterone was barely, and i really mean barely inside refrence range my doctors said i had normal but low levels. my shbg was 19 if that matters .
i have now been to doctors for 4 years and everyone say the same, its normal, you are okey.

my quality of life has been shit the last years and my life has completely changed for the worse after my last cycle. i finally got a endo who gave me tostran gel. which is a T gel. the thing is it only bumped me up to 360 NG/dl, i actually felt alot better, but the effects didnt last long. and who the fuck wants to go on trt and have measly 360 ng / dl levels ??

so i went to another doc. this guy is the best in the country and specialisez in male health and testosterone. he treats guys who has used AAS before. he immideatly gave me clomid. 50 mg every day for a week and then every other day . this lasted 2 months

my levels went from 220 ng /dl to 519 and i felt like a human being! i cant remember when i felt this good. my brainfog was completely gone, i could concentrate and think straight again, i lost fat without doing anything with my diett, my libido slightly went up, my mood went up alot, no moore depressed, actually happy for a change and i got a tiny tiny little boost in the gym.

now my clomid therapy is over and my brainfog i back and all other symptoms. i cant concentrate on work when i have this. i have not gotten the results from my blodtest after clomid tharaphy back, im waiting for it. so its ssems like its back to shiitty " feel like a 100 year old man, but im 28 " feeling

and heres is my question, and please someone who actually have knowlegde on this matter answer me

i think i eventually will go on TRT , even if i dont want to loose my hair or jab a needle rest of mye life, i rather do that then living like this. in my country we only have Nebido undeconate 1000 mgs , i dont think we have primotestan which is test enanthate anymore. the thing is i know alot of guys who hate nebido, they get high leves at start and then low levels long time before next jab

so please guys, after reading on the internett for 3 years about this.

WHAT IS THE BEST TRT PROTOCOLL?

i have talked with many formed bodybuilders and guys who are in the fitness industry right now as we speak.
i even talked with former mr olympia contender, the french guy who broke his legs.

they all say the same 100-200 mgs test cypionate a week and arimidex
is this the best option ?

please i really need help


#2

Doctors are always the problem. But many countries medical systems are very TRT hostile.

And where are you located? France? Seeing some traffic from there lately. “jab” = UK?

Your energy levels are greatly determined by T and thyroid hormones. Many?most who come here have thyroid problem. See the last paragraph to see how you can self-eval your thyroid function. Note that thyroid lab work is rarely sufficient to this task and the lab ranges simply mean that your doctor will ignore the issue. If you have not been using iodized salt, you probably have problems.

Knowledge is power.

Please read the stickies found here: About the T Replacement Category

  • advice for new guys
  • things that damage your hormones
  • protocol for injections
  • finding a TRT doc
  • HPTA restart

Evaluate your overall thyroid function by checking oral body temperatures as per the thyroid basics sticky. Thyroid hormone fT3 is what gets the job done and it regulates mitochondrial activity, the source of ATP which is the universal currency of cellular energy. This is part of the body’s temperature control loop. This can get messed up if you are iodine deficient. In many countries, you need to be using iodized salt. Other countries add iodine to dairy or bread.


#3

my thyroid TSH levels is only slightly elevated and has been like this for some years. its 3.5 and range is up to 4 before it becomes a problem. i already know that low testosterone is the problem, my totall level and free T levels is way to low

although i actually have been having eyebrow loss which is correlated to thyroid problems, my new doctor said we will just have to wait and see, the thyroid can use along time to fix itself he said, but its well within range so i think testosterone is the only problem

Ksman you seem to know alot about trt. do you recommend anything other than nebido ? i live in scandinavia where nebido is the only option right now. i know alot og fuys who hate it and some have started self medicate themself

im very tired of dealing with this hormonal problem, all my doctor through out this year have said im fine, your okey, levels within range. some have even said i am being overdramatic and that i dont have any issues. 1 endo, who actually is very good seems he is knows that i have to low test but is afraid to treat me, he only offered this weak test gel and said he couldnt do moore

after he heard that im getting clomid treatment from my new doctor who specialise in male hormones he said " i really strongely suggest you stop taking clomid and also remind you that this is on the Doping list "

clomid made me feel human again and now i just lost it, im back to feeling shitty and my brainfog makes me unable to function good at work

i have read most of the threads here KSMAN, and they all say the same 100-200 mg a week with possibel anti estrogen. but im really afraid , if i start this , if i will regret. i dont know what to do. my new doctor has many customers so i only visit him once every 2 months. would have been nice with some recomendations from here


#4

TSH=3.5 is absolutely a problem. Why it is high? Could be from not using iodized salt. Please get those AM and mid-afternoon body temperatures. TSH should be closer to 1.0, thyroid lab ranges are rather useless.

Please provide history of not using iodized salt.

If you do not address thyroid issues, TRT will only take you halfway to normal.

Clomid and other SERMs increase E2 and if you stop suddenly that can shut down your HPTA. At that point, 0.5mg/week anastrozole in divided doses is very helpful.

With your thyroid issues, T-gels might not absorb at all.

scandinavia: Nebido will work, but if you could inject this yourself more-often, you would do a lot better.


#5

thx for answer. my family has thyroid problems but in my country its within range, and even this new doctor i have now, which is alot better than everyone else, said i have to wait and see for further blodtest

so my questions for you know

  1. should i go for nebido or should i try to get cypionate or enanthate from the doctor or blackmarked ?
    nebido is very expensive so taking it moore often will cost to much i think, also cypionate and enanthate has moore stable levels then nebido

  2. if thyroid also is a problem, what should i do? in my country we use levaxin as a method of treating thyroid, but it has varied results i think…some use both levaxin and t3


#6

levaxin =Levothyroxine=T4

Some have poor ability to convert T4–>T3 in peripheral tissue and thus require T3. That is very often not understood by doctors.

Nebido has steady levels if injected more often. Any testosterone ester can be used.

Thyroid: Please explain your history of using iodized salt. Do not treat a simple iodine deficiency with thyroid medications. There are lots of problems caused by “within range” thyroid lab results. What do you know of your family’s use of iodize salt.

Please tell be what country you are in, there are country specific details that are good to understand.


#7

im from norway. i have never heard of iodized salt and would never think that salt have anything to do with thyroid


#8

Hi again KSMAN

i just watched my older blodtest again before i did clomid. even though my totall and free testosterone is bottom low. at 6.7 nmol my tsh is also 3.84

so even though my problems is mostly from low T its also from thyroid

i will likely go on trt next time i have appointment

but how do i deal with thyroid problem ? if i use testosterone and fix my low T will i still have thyroid problem ?

how can i manage with the thyroid problem at the same time i use testosterone ?

i have read that if you go from low t to normal or high your thyroid will be freed up in the body and will produce moore.

so how do i do this ? how does trt affect thyroid ? is it for the better or worse ?


#9

Evaluate your overall thyroid function by checking oral body temperatures as per the thyroid basics sticky. Thyroid hormone fT3 is what gets the job done and it regulates mitochondrial activity, the source of ATP which is the universal currency of cellular energy. This is part of the body’s temperature control loop. This can get messed up if you are iodine deficient. In many countries, you need to be using iodized salt. Other countries add iodine to dairy or bread.

http://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/5/2/424/pdf-vor

Iodized salt started to be introduced in many countries in 1922. With iodine deficiency many had goiters, low energy and some children had brain damage.

https://www.google.com/search?q=goiter&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi6jrrBucLTAhUUzmMKHdkOBCQQ_AUICCgB&biw=1261&bih=654

Read the thyroid basics sticky.
You need to get more iodine and selenium is very important to avoid problems.

Just not true…

TSH should be near 1.0, TSH=3.84 is causing problems and stupid lab ranges mean that doctors will do nothing. But fixing low iodine intake, is your problem, not a medical thing.

Are your outer eyebrows sparse?
Generalized hair thinning? - not male pattern baldness
Feel cold easily?

Norway

Prior to 1950, there were several areas where goiter was endemic in Norway. In 1917, Dr Carl Schiøtz described his findings of goiter among 10,000 schoolchildren in the inland district of Hedmark (42) (Fig. 1). At the age of 14, the prevalence was 24% among girls and 10% among boys (Fig. 2). He gave a detailed account of cretins. The well-known goiter district of Modum was extensively studied in 1934–1935 (43) (Fig. 1). The prevalence of goiter was very high, especially among school children in the community (80%). Also, the prevalence of goiter was higher among subjects who did not consume fish than among those who ate fish (43). From 1950 onwards, the iodine fortification of cow fodder became mandatory (2 µg/g) to improve livestock reproductive performance (44), a measure that resulted in a dramatic increase in iodine concentrations in milk and dairy products in Norway. Interestingly, this was paralleled in the United Kingdom (45). In the reinvestigation of school children in Modum in 1977, the goiter rate was found to have dropped to 1.5% and goiter was no longer considered a problem among Norwegian children (46). The sufficient iodine intake was attributed to the high iodine content of milk, but also to the fact that saltwater fish was more widely consumed in the 1970s (46).

If you do not eat saltwater fish and diary foods, you do not get enough iodine.


#10

yes, my eyebrows are dissapering and im loosing hair on the top, but this can be genetic

here is my another blodtest taken before

S-TSH:4.00

S-FT4:20.9

S-Thy.perox.antis.:12

S-FT3,

free T3:4.3

does this say anything ? im really fucked if i both have thyroid AND testosterone problems


#11

i dont eat alot of fish but diary foods i eat every fucking day. i think i drink atleast 1 liter milk everyday. atleast


#12

Do you have a lab range for: S-Thy.perox.antis.:12

Many?most guys who come here with low T have a thyroid/iodine issue.

Eyebrows suggest that this has been going on for a long time.

Please provide requested waking and mid-afternoon body temperatures.


#13

Ok i will measure my temperature
But how? I only have this thing i stick up my ass to measure if i have feber. Is that ok? I can measure both morning and night

I will find the labranges for antibodies when i het hone


#14

Get home


#15

here are my temperatures

rektal 36.7

armpit 35.7

mouth 34

its in celcius

are these normal ?

also another question ksman. if i have thyroidproblems and fix it with levothyroxine and or t3 will my natural testosterone also increase then ?

final question is levothyroxine treatment best or levothyroxine + t3

i have a family history of thyroid problems, but doctors said i only have subclinical thyroid disease and we dont need to treat it

also its not my diett. even though i never eat fish, i eat alot of milk products and milk, so iodine i get alot of


#16

Are those temperatures soon after you wake up in the morning or some other time? I seek waking temperatures AND mid-afternoon.

FT3=4.3 in mols should be mid-range [5] or a bit higher.
Helpful if you provide lab ranges so I am not guessing.

Are you going to try to get more iodine?


#17

the temperatures are at night and in the morning.

i also just got my blodtest back

my tsh is 3.95 which it has been since 2015

my totall T level is now 10.5 nmol. but this is taken 1.5 weeks after i discontinued my clomid theraphy. so i dont know it this is my permanent new test levels or if its still declining since i dont think clomid is 100 percent out of my body. so its up 4 points atleast. from 6.4 nmol totall test to 10.5 nmol

i get enough iodine from my diett as i eat a shit tone of diary producs, milk , yoghurts etch

i am going to a specialyst in thyroid hormone this week which also is a private clinic so i hope i can rule out the thyroid problem. i really hope that its just the testosterone causing problems since all my symptoms went away with clomid

my question for you now is. is my testosterone levels 10.5 on its way down ? since i tok the bloodtest only 1.5 week after last clomid pill ? i have read on the internett that because of clomid half life i t takes over 1 month before its completely out of my system. but all my symptoms came back 4 days after i stopped clomid therapy


#18

Hello ksman a little update

I havr now gone to a private doc who is moore expensive but alot better. We took some blodtest and my testosterone was back to 6 nmol after my clomid therapy

Also about the thyroid issue we found out that my t4 dont convert to t3. So now i started on 10 mg or mcg of liothyronine. Have used it for only 1 day and cant really feel anything yet. He said we will upp the dosages later. He is mainly focusing on thyroid disorders so i think i got thid covered now

This new doc also gave me testoviron which im very happy for because i clearly have hypogonadisn. The only thibg that sucks is that the protocoll is so laughable i dont know to cry or laugh

250 mg testoviron every 4 weeks is the protocol he gave me. Testoviron is propionate and enanthate together which is a really great product but injectibg every 4 weeks is redicilous

I just read nelson vergels book on trt and also read another trt book which all states the same

100-200 mg cypionate/enanthate a week divided by 2 shots

Also 250 iu hcg 2 times a week the day after testosterone injections

Arimidex if needed at 0.5 mg 1-3 times a week dependent on estrogen level

What do you think ksman is this a good trt protocol?

The hcg dosages is actually from usa best endocrinologist. Who found out that injecting 250 iu hcg 2 times a week the day after T shots will keep you fertile, balls in size and also raise your T abit

What do you think?


#19

That protocol is basically what I have been recommended in the stickies. You should be reading those.

TSH should be nearer to 1.0
Please post your recent thyroid labs with ranges.


"One of my biggest letdowns is recovery time on low testosterone. I can o ly work out 2 times a week. Somethimes 3 times max. My muscles are sore for like 1.5 weeks

My test levels are 400 ng dl …but im on clomid. Without clomid im at 200 ng dl"

TRT and thyroid meds should address that.


#20

Im using 10 mcg t3 a day which made me feel better and moore awake. The clomid also work. To a degree. But im still fat, its brutall to loose wait or gain any muscle in this state. But atleast clomid removed my severe braingog and greatly increased sex drive.

How long can i use clomid? Iv been using it for 3 months now 50 mg EOD. I dont eant to go off because then my brainfog, sex drive and energy hit r8ck bottom . Also my test levels without clomid is 200 ng dl or less

Im 27. Should i keep doing clomid or go for test injections? I feel OK on clomid. But not great