5x5 Without Deadlifts

Bigger Stronger Leaner
21

[quote]Yogi wrote:
sounds like a whole lot of assumption there, fella. That makes an ass out of you and umption.

Your post reeks of dogma. Like seriously stinks of it. I’m gagging on the stale, sweaty taste of dogma leeking out of you. Have a shower.[/quote]

I’m normally a fan “just suck it up and do the basics”, but I’m totally with Yogi on this one. I think it’s important to do some form of hip hinging in your training but I don’t feel that deadlifting is in any way essential, and there are plenty of perfectly valid reasons for not doing them, many of which have been mentioned above.

Having said that, I don’t think fear of injury is a good enough excuse, assuming there are no pre-existing conditions.

22

If you start out light and practice the movement

You will get a feel for the movement, be able to move the weights
up incrementally, and most importantly, gain confidence and avoid
injury.

Hope this helps.

23

[quote]WeightsNoob wrote:
To be honest I am mostly worried about injury. I do not really have or know anyone who can teach me the movement and be there every workout to make sure I am doing it right, I’m poor and just don’t have the money. So injury is mostly what I am concerned about[/quote]

I say good enough reason for now, consider Deadlift again when circumstances allow.

Glute ham raise, rows.

24

When I was first starting out I did rows and back raises(hyper extensions).

I wasn’t exactly sure how to get in position for the rows, so I just layed face down on my little bench and rowed the bar straight up into the bottom of the bench. After awhile I added upright rows, and figured out how to “stand” while holding the barbell. Soon I figured out how to do bent over rows. They kind of came natural after the bench rows and upright rows.

This whole time I was still working the lower back and hamstrings with the back raises.

Once I could do bent rows comfortably, it was an easy progression to the stiff legged deadlift, starting at the top. By starting at the top, out of the rack you control how low you go. You can stay in a ROM you’re comfortable with.

After a few months, throw in some shrugs, and/or partial deadlifts from the rack. Start above the knees. Get comfortable. When that feels good, lower the pins and pull from below your knees. From there it’s just a few inches to the floor.

Don’t worry about deadlifts now. Build some muscle doing lifts you’re comfortable with. Progress to bigger lifts over time. You’re a beginner, so there is no shame in starting at the beginning. If you were a basketball player you’d begin with lay-ups. After awhile, maybe you can dunk fooling around. Then, in a scrimage. Finally after lots of practice and development you dunk in a game, and get all the girls.

25

That’s pretty much where I was coming from, although I’ll admit I could have expressed the sentiment better. I guess I’m biased because even from day one I never had an issue deadlifting off the floor.

@OP sorry if I jumped down your throat a bit, but if you can try some light DLs just to see how they feel and then work your technique with a DL variation that suits you I’d be extremely shocked if that doesn’t mae a big positive difference to your training results.

I actually thought a fair bit about something I’d pick if I couldn’t DL and the one thing that sprung to mind was reverse hypers - the only issue being they’re not that widely available apart from in powerlifting gyms. Failing that it’d be snatch grip high pulls from the hang position, and I know that in this case that’s probably not an option.

The whole injury risk thing is a funny one to me, because no matter what hinge variation you use you can mess yourself up, so I still figure some form of DL is the best option. In this case, I’d probably say pin pulls from a height OP can get into a good position at. Rows and stuff too, of course, but I think 5x5 usually includes those.

One other idea I had was to do front squats instead because I’ve found they help strengthen my whole back a bunch and once your back’s strong I’m pretty sure the injur risk from deadlifts reduces significantly.

26

[quote]FlatsFarmer wrote:
When I was first starting out I did rows and back raises(hyper extensions).

I wasn’t exactly sure how to get in position for the rows, so I just layed face down on my little bench and rowed the bar straight up into the bottom of the bench. After awhile I added upright rows, and figured out how to “stand” while holding the barbell. Soon I figured out how to do bent over rows. They kind of came natural after the bench rows and upright rows.

This whole time I was still working the lower back and hamstrings with the back raises.

Once I could do bent rows comfortably, it was an easy progression to the stiff legged deadlift, starting at the top. By starting at the top, out of the rack you control how low you go. You can stay in a ROM you’re comfortable with.

After a few months, throw in some shrugs, and/or partial deadlifts from the rack. Start above the knees. Get comfortable. When that feels good, lower the pins and pull from below your knees. From there it’s just a few inches to the floor.

Don’t worry about deadlifts now. Build some muscle doing lifts you’re comfortable with. Progress to bigger lifts over time. You’re a beginner, so there is no shame in starting at the beginning. If you were a basketball player you’d begin with lay-ups. After awhile, maybe you can dunk fooling around. Then, in a scrimage. Finally after lots of practice and development you dunk in a game, and get all the girls.[/quote]

Also, this actually looks like a pretty damn good approach if you really feel the injury risk of any kind of deadlift is too high.

27

[quote]dagill2 wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:
sounds like a whole lot of assumption there, fella. That makes an ass out of you and umption.

Your post reeks of dogma. Like seriously stinks of it. I’m gagging on the stale, sweaty taste of dogma leeking out of you. Have a shower.[/quote]

I’m normally a fan “just suck it up and do the basics”, but I’m totally with Yogi on this one. I think it’s important to do some form of hip hinging in your training but I don’t feel that deadlifting is in any way essential, and there are plenty of perfectly valid reasons for not doing them, many of which have been mentioned above.[/quote]

Are squats essential? Is bench press essential? Pull-ups?

How are we defining “essential”?

If I could only do 1 barbell movement for the rest of my life I would deadlift. It works more total muscle mass than any other movement and strengthens the entire posterior chain, which is kind of important for picking up / carrying stuff and being generally healthy and strong into old age.

I see your and Yogi’s point and would agree that strictly speaking no, deadlifts are not “necessary” for everyone, but 1) nothing is and 2) given that the OP seems like a beginner and hasn’t voiced any particularly good reasons for not deadlifting, I think it makes sense to respond with some larger context about the value of the deadlift rather than just strictly answering his question. Especially since it’s kind of tough to replace a fundamental movement pattern – barbell rows and kettlebell swings don’t equal a deadlift.

28

[quote]FlatsFarmer wrote:
When I was first starting out I did rows and back raises(hyper extensions).

I wasn’t exactly sure how to get in position for the rows, so I just layed face down on my little bench and rowed the bar straight up into the bottom of the bench. After awhile I added upright rows, and figured out how to “stand” while holding the barbell. Soon I figured out how to do bent over rows. They kind of came natural after the bench rows and upright rows.

This whole time I was still working the lower back and hamstrings with the back raises.

Once I could do bent rows comfortably, it was an easy progression to the stiff legged deadlift, starting at the top. By starting at the top, out of the rack you control how low you go. You can stay in a ROM you’re comfortable with.

After a few months, throw in some shrugs, and/or partial deadlifts from the rack. Start above the knees. Get comfortable. When that feels good, lower the pins and pull from below your knees. From there it’s just a few inches to the floor.

Don’t worry about deadlifts now. Build some muscle doing lifts you’re comfortable with. Progress to bigger lifts over time. You’re a beginner, so there is no shame in starting at the beginning. If you were a basketball player you’d begin with lay-ups. After awhile, maybe you can dunk fooling around. Then, in a scrimage. Finally after lots of practice and development you dunk in a game, and get all the girls.[/quote]

Interesting. When I was first starting out I put the bar on the floor with some plates and picked it up.

While I can appreciate the message of taking things slowly and safely in your post, I disagree with a lot of your advice. The deadlift isn’t some exotic, complex movement that advanced lifters do. It’s kind of the opposite. I.e., a lay-up, not a dunk. I also think recommending all those other exercises is not only potentially confusing to a beginner, but counterproductive. Shrugs and rack pulls before just picking the bar up off the floor?

The OP could just buy a copy of Starting Strength and read the chapter on the Deadlift. People seem much more interested in posting on the internet than in reading books, though.

29

[quote]craze9 wrote:

[quote]FlatsFarmer wrote:
When I was first starting out I did rows and back raises(hyper extensions).

I wasn’t exactly sure how to get in position for the rows, so I just layed face down on my little bench and rowed the bar straight up into the bottom of the bench. After awhile I added upright rows, and figured out how to “stand” while holding the barbell. Soon I figured out how to do bent over rows. They kind of came natural after the bench rows and upright rows.

This whole time I was still working the lower back and hamstrings with the back raises.

Once I could do bent rows comfortably, it was an easy progression to the stiff legged deadlift, starting at the top. By starting at the top, out of the rack you control how low you go. You can stay in a ROM you’re comfortable with.

After a few months, throw in some shrugs, and/or partial deadlifts from the rack. Start above the knees. Get comfortable. When that feels good, lower the pins and pull from below your knees. From there it’s just a few inches to the floor.

Don’t worry about deadlifts now. Build some muscle doing lifts you’re comfortable with. Progress to bigger lifts over time. You’re a beginner, so there is no shame in starting at the beginning. If you were a basketball player you’d begin with lay-ups. After awhile, maybe you can dunk fooling around. Then, in a scrimage. Finally after lots of practice and development you dunk in a game, and get all the girls.[/quote]

Interesting. When I was first starting out I put the bar on the floor with some plates and picked it up.

While I can appreciate the message of taking things slowly and safely in your post, I disagree with a lot of your advice. The deadlift isn’t some exotic, complex movement that advanced lifters do. It’s kind of the opposite. I.e., a lay-up, not a dunk. I also think recommending all those other exercises is not only potentially confusing to a beginner, but counterproductive. Shrugs and rack pulls before just picking the bar up off the floor?

The OP could just buy a copy of Starting Strength and read the chapter on the Deadlift. People seem much more interested in posting on the internet than in reading books, though.
[/quote]

If you are one of those “I just bent over and picked the bar up” folk, I don’t think you understand how awkward the movement can feel to some.

Farmer’s approach is pretty solid (for someone who is not comfortable deadlifting). It may not have to go as far as including the partials and shrugs, but building a base of back strength with rows and back extensions (I would work on pull ups also) will definitely set the lifter up for success with the deadlift.

30

[quote]Sutebun wrote:
If you are one of those “I just bent over and picked the bar up” folk, I don’t think you understand how awkward the movement can feel to some.
[/quote]

Fair enough, lifting with good form did come relatively easily to me. But the OP didn’t say he tried to deadlift and found it awkward. My impression is that he hasn’t tried at all.

[quote]Sutebun wrote:
Farmer’s approach is pretty solid (for someone who is not comfortable deadlifting). It may not have to go as far as including the partials and shrugs, but building a base of back strength with rows and back extensions (I would work on pull ups also) will definitely set the lifter up for success with the deadlift.[/quote]

Why would someone not comfortable deadlifting be more comfortable barbell rowing?

I just can’t wrap my head around “building a base of back strength” in order to deadlift, when the deadlift is undoubtedly the single best lift precisely for building a base of back strength. You can start with 95 lbs (or just the bar) and add 10 lbs 3x / week for a month. Voila, a base of back strength.

This is, actually, the point – the deadlift is an excellent tool for building strength and muscle, even (or especially) for a beginner. That’s the reason to use it. Training for the purpose of being able to use it later is therefore a bit silly.

31

[quote]craze9 wrote:
Are squats essential? Is bench press essential? Pull-ups?

How are we defining “essential”?
[/quote]
In this age of convenience and ease, no exercise is essential, however I do feel that there are basic movement patterns that anyone wanting to stay healthy should be practicing. I for one would like to be able to get off the toilet and pick stuff off the floor when I’m old so I would say some form of squat and hip hinge are important. Does that mean that you need to be pushing heavy iron on these movements and risking injury? No.

I’d choose the Clean and Press, even though I suck at it, but that’s a whole different story

I think there are very good reasons to program without deadlifts, for example “deadlifts cause me lots of injuries”. There are also very bad reasons to program without deadlifts, like “I think deadlifts will cause me lots of injuries but haven’t tried them much”

32

I find the notion of thr barbell deadlift proper as an essential exercise somewhat absurd due to the completely arbitrary nature of the movement. Plate diameter of 45lb/20kg plates derives from Olympic lifting, and in that case it was to protect a lifters skull in case he fell down while the bar was overhead. To believe that starting a deadweight lift from this exact height is ideal and that any changing of the starting position (ie: deficit deadlift or block pull) lessens the effectiveness is an appeal to tradition.

Then, let us factor in that many trainees train with non regulation plate diameters due to the variety of weight plate manufacturers. Its comical to even suggest that someone pulling deadlifts with hex plates is in any way performing the same exercise as someone using bumper plates. And I haven’t even addressed the variety of barbell out there that cam affect the mechanics of the lift. Nothing is standardised, we can’t even really discuss “deadlifting” because almost everyone is having a different experience.

Picking a dead weight up is a fine exercise, but there are a million ways to do it, and the barbell deadlift is just one of them, which most likely is NOT ideal for the majority of lifters in the world due to varying leverages. Your own individual dead weight lift is going to require some modifications. In some instances, it may not even be a barbell lift, but instead an atlas stone, a sandbag, a keg, a trap bar, etc etc.

33

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
I find the notion of thr barbell deadlift proper as an essential exercise somewhat absurd due to the completely arbitrary nature of the movement. Plate diameter of 45lb/20kg plates derives from Olympic lifting, and in that case it was to protect a lifters skull in case he fell down while the bar was overhead. To believe that starting a deadweight lift from this exact height is ideal and that any changing of the starting position (ie: deficit deadlift or block pull) lessens the effectiveness is an appeal to tradition.

Then, let us factor in that many trainees train with non regulation plate diameters due to the variety of weight plate manufacturers. Its comical to even suggest that someone pulling deadlifts with hex plates is in any way performing the same exercise as someone using bumper plates. And I haven’t even addressed the variety of barbell out there that cam affect the mechanics of the lift. Nothing is standardised, we can’t even really discuss “deadlifting” because almost everyone is having a different experience.

Picking a dead weight up is a fine exercise, but there are a million ways to do it, and the barbell deadlift is just one of them, which most likely is NOT ideal for the majority of lifters in the world due to varying leverages. Your own individual dead weight lift is going to require some modifications. In some instances, it may not even be a barbell lift, but instead an atlas stone, a sandbag, a keg, a trap bar, etc etc.[/quote]

That is all fine, but you’re talking about deadlift variations. The question in this thread (I thought) is about whether to deadlift at all (how to replace the lift in a 5x5 program, specifically). Note that the people responding to his question are talking about doing barbell rows and farmer walks instead, not about using a trap bar vs a barbell or lifting from blocks vs floor, etc.

To specifically address your point about the barbell deadlift not being ideal for a majority of lifters, I can’t say I have enough expertise to personally comment. But I know Mark Rippetoe disagrees with you. That may be an appeal to authority, but this isn’t actually a logical question, it’s an empirical one. He would argue that a qualified coach (i.e., him and the coaches with his accreditation) can teach anyone to barbell deadlift safely and correctly, regardless of leverages or bone structures. Since he’s written one of the best books about the physiology of the barbell lifts, and makes his living touring the world giving seminars in which he does exactly that (teaches anyone who signs up to do the lifts), I’m inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. There was an interesting exchange on this topic in the comments section of his most recent T-Nation article on steroids.

34

[quote]dagill2 wrote:
In this age of convenience and ease, no exercise is essential, however I do feel that there are basic movement patterns that anyone wanting to stay healthy should be practicing. I for one would like to be able to get off the toilet and pick stuff off the floor when I’m old so I would say some form of squat and hip hinge are important. Does that mean that you need to be pushing heavy iron on these movements and risking injury? No.
[/quote]

Granted, but I’m not sure why one would think the deadlift causes more injuries than any other lift. And “heavy” is relative. Sure, when you’re really pushing your body’s performance and recovery abilities in order to increase strength, the risk of injury increases, but I would not include any beginner or intermediate lifter capable of simple linear progress in this category.

[quote]dagill2 wrote:
I’d choose the Clean and Press, even though I suck at it, but that’s a whole different story
[/quote]

Clean and press is great. Not sure why one would think it’s less likely to cause an injury than the deadlift, though.

[quote]dagill2 wrote:
I think there are very good reasons to program without deadlifts, for example “deadlifts cause me lots of injuries”. There are also very bad reasons to program without deadlifts, like “I think deadlifts will cause me lots of injuries but haven’t tried them much”[/quote]

I’m inclined to think that for the VAST majority of lifters, if deadlifts are “causing lots of injuries,” the lift isn’t being performed correctly.

35

Mark Rippetoe and I actually have disagreed on the topic. He has definitely written a very well selling book on training, but he and I differ pretty significantly on this topic. If you are inclined to agree with his perspective, there is no chance we could reach agreement on this topic.

36

Honestly, if I could only do 1 exercise for the rest of my life, I would CURL.

Come on, admit it. The 1st time you went up to a dumbell rack, you didn’t do 1 arm dumbbell cleans and presses with the intention of building functional strength. You did the most primitive and instinctive movement of all. You CURLED!

Notice what happens when you pick up and hold a barbell at the bottom position of a curl? Bam! Perfect posture! That’s why you CURL!

Chick feels your arm, goes “wow you’ve been working out!”. You don’t do a fucking side tricep pose. You pull up your sleeve and you flex that bicep. That’s why you CURL!

Remember how Batman saved Liam Neeson’s ass at the edge of the cliff in Batman Begins? He fucking CURLS!

This is why I conjugate with lions.

37

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
Mark Rippetoe and I actually have disagreed on the topic. He has definitely written a very well selling book on training, but he and I differ pretty significantly on this topic. If you are inclined to agree with his perspective, there is no chance we could reach agreement on this topic. [/quote]

It is an empirical question – 1) can everyone barbell deadlift safely and correctly given proper instruction, and 2) is this optimal. Personally I have no idea as to the answer, and don’t really care. I did recently spend a few months doing the trap-bar deadlift instead of barbell deadlifts for the first time, and enjoyed them, but have since gone back to standard DLs which I think I prefer.

In any case, when it comes to the larger point of this thread, Rippetoe isn’t the only “expert” talking about the importance of deadlifts. Dan John defines lifting weights as 1) picking up weights off the ground 2) presssing weights overhead and 3) carrying weights over distance. He even says something about how squats and pullups are fine, but a bigger priority is getting to the point where you can pull double bodyweight off the ground. I assume he has good reasons for these views.

Anyway, if people don’t want to deadlift, that’s A-okay. More room for me at the power rack. I just find it funny all the excuses people make not to deadlift and interesting that the same excuses are heard much less frequently when it comes to the bench press, which is arguably the most injury-prone lift there is.

And for the record, I do do curls, but have never really enjoyed them as an exercise.

38

I am curious why you are deadlifting in the power rack. Seems like a better place for rack pulls, haha.

Yeah, we will simply have to agree to disagree. It happens.

39

Lol when people go around saying “exercise X is essential”. Or that everyone healthy should do it.

If you were specifically looking to “replace” deadlifts, just figure out what you want out of the deadlifts and pick a movement that targeted that. Want your back to be worked? Do a rowing movement, or chin up. Want your legs? Try front squats, lunges, RDL, cleans. Want your grip? Farmers walks, heavy shrugs, plate holds. Plenty of these movements would arguably work better for the given goal for some people.

40

[quote]Yogi wrote:

[quote]MarkKO wrote:

Believe me, you need to do deadlifts. Unless you’ve got a very, VERY serious injury if you think you don’t need deadlifts you are sadly mistaken. You thinking you don’t need deadlifts makes me think you really need them a whole bunch. [/quote]

no, no you don’t. Why would he need them?[/quote]

Hey man sorry for such a delayed response I didnt expect any one to respond hahaha. But, Yes it is always how I have trained. Even when I was pulling 315 and 405 heavy deadlifts destroyed me and always made me feel horrible. I gave up for a long time and I swear when I started training with Sam the way we do I went from a 415 pull to 485 pull in about 4 months with out EVER pulling form the floor unless it was a stiff leg deadlift.

Now we pretty much never pull off the floor and if we do it is never over 60% and its always speed or pause pulls to hammer positioning. Basically week A we will squat heavy and then pull from blocks for reps more volume and stuff along those lines. The next week we pull heavy for basically one all out set with a target weight FROM BLOCKS. Repeat.

Last November I pulled 570 in a meet. I didnt pull from the floor again until 3 weeks out from my meet in Mid March where I pulled 640 with straps and just barely missed 625 on the platfrom. So literally pulled from the twice in 16 weeks and that was the result. Also hit a 50lbs Squat PR.