5th and Washington

You are assuming I can’t or won’t do the same things. If I pull guard on the street it is so I can get access to your eyes, throat, and ears. I can also pull out my blade and quietly put it between your ribs, all from behind you without you realizing until it is over. I can put my keys in your eyes while your in that triangle. There are actually more things that you can do with weapons or small point attacks on the ground for a BJJ guy. Check out some if the stuff that a guy like Gene Lebell or the Dog Brothers. Don’t assume if we go to the ground I am gonna try to uma plata you. In a self-defense situation I have many other ideas.

We need to start a “Fool’s gettin’ served” thread. Here is another submission in that department. How dumb would you feel talking mad shit, then getting dumped on like this?

[quote]dyoder16 wrote:
You are assuming I can’t or won’t do the same things. If I pull guard on the street it is so I can get access to your eyes, throat, and ears. I can also pull out my blade and quietly put it between your ribs, all from behind you without you realizing until it is over. I can put my keys in your eyes while your in that triangle. There are actually more things that you can do with weapons or small point attacks on the ground for a BJJ guy. Check out some if the stuff that a guy like Gene Lebell or the Dog Brothers. Don’t assume if we go to the ground I am gonna try to uma plata you. In a self-defense situation I have many other ideas.[/quote]

Yea. Maybe. But the odds are that you’re not going to, because the great majority of BJJ schools neither stress nor practice that kind of thing because they’re geared more towards competition. I know it because I almost broke myself of the habit of going immediately for the throat when I started learning BJJ- they frown on that sort of thing. So when I stopped learning it, I wasn’t that upset… it was bringing me away from my natural instincts.

And there’s always the fact that you’re going to get kicked in the head by someone I know.

Once again, it’s foolish to use in the street. There’s no two ways about this.

[quote]dyoder16 wrote:
You are assuming I can’t or won’t do the same things. If I pull guard on the street it is so I can get access to your eyes, throat, and ears. I can also pull out my blade and quietly put it between your ribs, all from behind you without you realizing until it is over. I can put my keys in your eyes while your in that triangle. There are actually more things that you can do with weapons or small point attacks on the ground for a BJJ guy. Check out some if the stuff that a guy like Gene Lebell or the Dog Brothers. Don’t assume if we go to the ground I am gonna try to uma plata you. In a self-defense situation I have many other ideas.[/quote]

Aside from all the things we believe we’d have the chance to do - and I’m not disputing you’d do them all with a smile on your face - have you done any groundfighting on cement or in a parking littered with gravel or glass - conditions where you’d likely need to defend yourself? I’ve done it on a cement floor, only once, thankfully. I was extremely banged up and bruised, and we rolled on the cement for only about 15 minutes. It quickly removed any charm from going to the ground outside the gym. Then there’s the whole getting kicked in the head while you’re down there thing.

Not saying it’s impossible to be successful there, just that I’ll do anything possible to avoid it.

there is a big need for fools getting served thread-
it would be gas.

I’m a wrestling and Judo guy-
and despite any accomplishments ( or lack of :)) on the mat
streetz is different
talk shit usually for most people means get your ass wupped.
Id never try to insinuate that Judo or wrestling - and god forbid Bjj are the ‘best’
forms of self defense. two of them are ok and its not Bjj.

why do we feel the need to rehash this?

FWIW there where some very very sucessful shit talkers growing up in BK in the 70’s
kids who where bullies and some of which had
enough skills or hand speed to be the instigator to put on a show.

thanks for the videos - love seeing a shit talker get smashed up.

[quote]Dre Cappa wrote:
We need to start a “Fool’s gettin’ served” thread. Here is another submission in that department. How dumb would you feel talking mad shit, then getting dumped on like this?

hahahah that kid ruled. He clearly got laid at the end too.

I think BJJ is great for handling yourself on the top. Most guys don’t know how to grapple (less than those who know how to throw a punch/kick, both are rare, lol). One of the reasons I prefer the top game to the bottom is that it’s more practical for a street scenario. You can disengage if new guys jump in (knee-belly, NS, loose mount), there are a couple of armlocks that don’t require a lot of positional commitment (e.g: NS kimura), and of course, you can throw some serious damage (knees/elbows to the head, ribs, oil check nut squeeze, dirty shit).

That said, anyone who pulls guard ‘on da street’, or intentionally puts himself on the bottom, deserves the beating he gets. There’s a video out there called “BJJ on the street” or something like that. I can count on one hand the number of dudes that pulled guard and didn’t have a blood oozing out of some orifice on their face. The only guys who do shit like that are either:

a)Retards.
b)Out to prove some ridiculous point.

There’s a thread going on in the MMA UG called ‘Thinking of coming of BJJ retirement’. Some dude is out with his family when a car containing 3 big motherfuckers drives by and someone says “I want to fuck your daughter”. This guy runs after the car, said big motherfuckers come out and what does he do? Double leg on to the hood of the car, pulls one guy to the floor, and proceeds to get the shit beat out of him. In case you’re wondering, yes his wife ends up in the hospital.

Now I’m not saying it would’ve ended any better if this idiot used Muay Thai or did anything else other than run the fuck away, but if he wasn’t on the floor surrounded by 3 big guys he might’ve realized how stupid he was being and done just that.

BJJ worked great in UFC 1 because no one was stomping Royce Gracie in the head while he was pulling off armbars.

good points Irish…boxing is the sweet science of self defense, it is such a commercial sport these days that I think many people forget that. when I was a bouncer when I was a young buck…my MINIMAL boxing skills that I learned when I spent a year in a boxing gym as a teenager…saved my fat-ass from some epic ass-kickings.

keep your hands up, circle away from your opponents power hand(usually the right) instead of backing straight up, and throw straight punches, right down the middle. AND HIT FIRST.

these 4 little things will more often than not give you a big advantage over the average drunk POS douchbag looking for trouble at 2am Saturday night.

some judo or wrestling skills wont hurt either.

That’s sound advice. Most of the fights I have ever been in outside of a competition setting involved someone loading up on their right hand and/or throwing wild haymakers with both hands. I remember one instance of ducking under a wild right and throwing a straight right to his nose (missed his chin). I did some good damage and remembered the look of surprise on his face as well lol.

That being said, the older I get the more I realize it best to just walk away. People carry guns and knives, and most people on the street don’t fight alone. That story above is a perfect example. There is no winning a street fight. Survival is a win.

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
good points Irish…boxing is the sweet science of self defense, it is such a commercial sport these days that I think many people forget that. when I was a bouncer when I was a young buck…my MINIMAL boxing skills that I learned when I spent a year in a boxing gym as a teenager…saved my fat-ass from some epic ass-kickings.

keep your hands up, circle away from your opponents power hand(usually the right) instead of backing straight up, and throw straight punches, right down the middle. AND HIT FIRST.

these 4 little things will more often than not give you a big advantage over the average drunk POS douchbag looking for trouble at 2am Saturday night.

some judo or wrestling skills wont hurt either. [/quote]

[quote]Dre Cappa wrote:
That being said, the older I get the more I realize it best to just walk away. People carry guns and knives, and most people on the street don’t fight alone. That story above is a perfect example. There is no winning a street fight. Survival is a win.
[/quote]

Agreed 100%

What struck me as most impressive in the ‘5th and Washington’ video was the guy’s composure. He tries to calm the shit down. He’s clearly (well I’m guessing by his open-handed gesture and ‘calm down’ expression) prepared to talk or resort to a non-aggressive solution. When it’s clear that’s not going to happen he slips off his ring, puts it into his pocket, finds his range with a couple of pushes while he’s putting the ring away and DINK!

Of course he completely ruins all that by kicking the guy afterwards but up to that point - fucking kudos mate, a well controlled pair of baws you sport!

Boxing should never be underestimated! Neither should good wrestling skills, but as already mentioned- in the street you really want to avoid rolling around on concrete where your attackers friends might have no problem booting you upside the head while you apply that trained triangle choke. This makes boxing infinitely more practical for street defense. That and sprinting/jumping. =P

Wrestling/judo is great in the street…if you use it to stay upright/toss the other guy so that he can be curb-stomped. Less so if you follow him into said curb-stomping.

The guy in the first video clearly had some training (which he forgot once it hit the fan). Watch his feet while the other guy comes toward him. He’s already got his stance, in case he has to counter, and he’s lining up that first shot. I don’t count the second punch missing against him, it was on its way before the shirtless wonder started to fall, if the jab hadn’t dropped the guy the right would have.

Bullies taught lessons: The only reason this is on YouTube at all is because it’s become fashionable for high school bullies to take and post video of them harassing their victims. There should be cops cruising YouTube and looking for these punks, maybe a little time in jail being called Sally will show them they’re not the toughest thing out there.

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
Wrestling/judo is great in the street…if you use it to stay upright/toss the other guy so that he can be curb-stomped. Less so if you follow him into said curb-stomping.

[/quote]

Also being able to get into a superior position to get back on to your feet fast is a great skill to have. I certainly wouldn’t shit on wrestling for street application, definitely not, but people who underestimate boxing ‘on the street’ by comparing it to MMA sport conditions aren’t really right in the head. It’s a totally different game.

There was a comment on the Marquez vs Diaz video link FightingIrish posted (cheers for that btw…awesome fight!) in that other thread that went something along the lines of “man…neither of these guys would last 10 seconds in the Octagon…”

Interesting to consider the effect UFc and Strike etc have had on moving kids from boxing gyms to filling up the BJJ gyms. At least in the States, I appreciate it’s probably a bit different over here in Britain.

I think it’s great.
Let everyone learn BJJ while I focus on boxing, wrestling and judo.
Just means I’ll win more fights :slight_smile:

[quote]Stern wrote:

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
Wrestling/judo is great in the street…if you use it to stay upright/toss the other guy so that he can be curb-stomped. Less so if you follow him into said curb-stomping.

[/quote]

Also being able to get into a superior position to get back on to your feet fast is a great skill to have. I certainly wouldn’t shit on wrestling for street application, definitely not, but people who underestimate boxing ‘on the street’ by comparing it to MMA sport conditions aren’t really right in the head. It’s a totally different game.

There was a comment on the Marquez vs Diaz video link FightingIrish posted (cheers for that btw…awesome fight!) in that other thread that went something along the lines of “man…neither of these guys would last 10 seconds in the Octagon…”

Interesting to consider the effect UFc and Strike etc have had on moving kids from boxing gyms to filling up the BJJ gyms. At least in the States, I appreciate it’s probably a bit different over here in Britain.
[/quote]

Eh that’s not really happening. They don’t necessarily draw from the same crowds… boxing is, and always has been, a minority sport.

But I know what you mean, although I saw that comment also and do believe the guy was just trolling. They didn’t mention that ANY MMA fighter wouldn’t last ten seconds with either of those guys in a boxing ring either.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Stern wrote:

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
Wrestling/judo is great in the street…if you use it to stay upright/toss the other guy so that he can be curb-stomped. Less so if you follow him into said curb-stomping.

[/quote]

Also being able to get into a superior position to get back on to your feet fast is a great skill to have. I certainly wouldn’t shit on wrestling for street application, definitely not, but people who underestimate boxing ‘on the street’ by comparing it to MMA sport conditions aren’t really right in the head. It’s a totally different game.

There was a comment on the Marquez vs Diaz video link FightingIrish posted (cheers for that btw…awesome fight!) in that other thread that went something along the lines of “man…neither of these guys would last 10 seconds in the Octagon…”

Interesting to consider the effect UFc and Strike etc have had on moving kids from boxing gyms to filling up the BJJ gyms. At least in the States, I appreciate it’s probably a bit different over here in Britain.
[/quote]

Eh that’s not really happening. They don’t necessarily draw from the same crowds… boxing is, and always has been, a minority sport.

But I know what you mean, although I saw that comment also and do believe the guy was just trolling. They didn’t mention that ANY MMA fighter wouldn’t last ten seconds with either of those guys in a boxing ring either. [/quote]

Hah, aye, sorry I meant that last bit to be a query rather than a statement. “Would be interesting to know ‘if’ the UFC etc have had a detrimental effect on boxing?” but you’ve covered it anyway.

[quote]Stern wrote:

[quote]Dre Cappa wrote:
That being said, the older I get the more I realize it best to just walk away. People carry guns and knives, and most people on the street don’t fight alone. That story above is a perfect example. There is no winning a street fight. Survival is a win.
[/quote]

Agreed 100%

What struck me as most impressive in the ‘5th and Washington’ video was the guy’s composure. He tries to calm the shit down. He’s clearly (well I’m guessing by his open-handed gesture and ‘calm down’ expression) prepared to talk or resort to a non-aggressive solution. When it’s clear that’s not going to happen he slips off his ring, puts it into his pocket, finds his range with a couple of pushes while he’s putting the ring away and DINK!

Of course he completely ruins all that by kicking the guy afterwards but up to that point - fucking kudos mate, a well controlled pair of baws you sport!

Boxing should never be underestimated! Neither should good wrestling skills, but as already mentioned- in the street you really want to avoid rolling around on concrete where your attackers friends might have no problem booting you upside the head while you apply that trained triangle choke. This makes boxing infinitely more practical for street defense. That and sprinting/jumping. =P[/quote]

agreed 10000000% I am thinking of a what if situation. I am on record here on this forum preaching that if you dont want to get into shit…avvoid public places where alcohol and drugs are flowing…especially between 11pm and 4am.

I know this from being a regional ED trauma center nurse for 17 years.

“there is a time when the wolves are out and about…dont be out there with them” somebody on this forum once told me…and it is very true.

unfortunately, trouble sometimes comes looking for you…this waas broad daylight and in front of the guys own house.

Boxing is super viable for self defense. Anything that has you fighting full contact taking and giving shots in a stressful situation is good.

That being said, I think people should familiarize themselves with punching, elbows, knee strikes, kicks, takedowns the works.

Nobody says you have to be the best at all those, but you should know how to at least function in each range of combat.

My school teaches olympic tkd and judo. When I get a chance to teach, I usually work in boxing drills so these people learn to punch a bit. My instructor is a big proponent of cross training. Perhaps for his amusement, he had us pretty much just fight with very little rules this past friday.

In broken english with a heavy korean accent he said to punch, kick, throw, take down, choke whatever. Now most people at my school have not sparred this way, so it was a fun chance to work every thing in. Some of us are cross trained in the judo and had a chance to put it all together.

regarding that video, i think its part of an ironic trend of suburban white kids trying to be “hood”. Its laughable.

[quote]heavythrower wrote:

agreed 10000000% I am thinking of a what if situation. I am on record here on this forum preaching that if you dont want to get into shit…avvoid public places where alcohol and drugs are flowing…especially between 11pm and 4am.

I know this from being a regional ED trauma center nurse for 17 years.

“there is a time when the wolves are out and about…dont be out there with them” somebody on this forum once told me…and it is very true.

unfortunately, trouble sometimes comes looking for you…this waas broad daylight and in front of the guys own house. [/quote]

Very true, but it was still South Philly haha.

Shit can follow you, it’s true. Back when I used to work in retail, you’d always get one or two customers who got absolutely irate and threatened violence and sometimes we had to call the cops. Now I work as a reporter- and I don’t need to tell you how angry people can get at us.

But when I’m kind of “living the life” a little more by going out to the shitty dive bars and being involved with the dirtbags I invariably find, violence can get a lot more common… so if I don’t keep my eyes open, it sneaks up real quick. Hell, it did last week when I wasn’t paying attention.

But for the most part, like Jadakiss said after getting locked up on a gun charge- you don’t get in trouble if you don’t go out.

Hell, a guy got stabbed a couple nights ago by a bar I always go to. A lot of people I know were drinking over there and saw the whole thing go down. I was home, and just reported on it the next day.

I kind of ride that line between professional and professional lowlife, so its funny seeing how I get older I get more prone to trying to, like Heavy said, stay the fuck in between 11-4 a.m. Because really- he’s right- the only people out there at that time are cops and robbers. Nobody else.

yeah, that’s good stuff…

i will say that getting into a street fight is about one of the dumbest things a guy can do now (due to our legal climate), but i think he was better off facing it head-on than getting sucker punched (minus putting the boots to the guy on the ground).

i never got that pushing and shoving crap…i had a tendancy when i was younger to punch people pretty much as soon as they shoved me. i guess that also explains my relative success as well…

a buddy of mine from our BJJ club and i discussed the issues with BJJ and self defense a while back… there is some talk of integrated self-defense training into class (prolly using MMA gloves), just so guys don’t get used to the sport-only applications. we also have a lot of wrestlers, so i think most of our guys have better takedwons than the average BJJ club, and don’t pull guard too much.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]heavythrower wrote:

agreed 10000000% I am thinking of a what if situation. I am on record here on this forum preaching that if you dont want to get into shit…avvoid public places where alcohol and drugs are flowing…especially between 11pm and 4am.

I know this from being a regional ED trauma center nurse for 17 years.

“there is a time when the wolves are out and about…dont be out there with them” somebody on this forum once told me…and it is very true.

unfortunately, trouble sometimes comes looking for you…this waas broad daylight and in front of the guys own house. [/quote]

Very true, but it was still South Philly haha.

Shit can follow you, it’s true. Back when I used to work in retail, you’d always get one or two customers who got absolutely irate and threatened violence and sometimes we had to call the cops. Now I work as a reporter- and I don’t need to tell you how angry people can get at us.

But when I’m kind of “living the life” a little more by going out to the shitty dive bars and being involved with the dirtbags I invariably find, violence can get a lot more common… so if I don’t keep my eyes open, it sneaks up real quick. Hell, it did last week when I wasn’t paying attention.

But for the most part, like Jadakiss said after getting locked up on a gun charge- you don’t get in trouble if you don’t go out.

Hell, a guy got stabbed a couple nights ago by a bar I always go to. A lot of people I know were drinking over there and saw the whole thing go down. I was home, and just reported on it the next day.

I kind of ride that line between professional and professional lowlife, so its funny seeing how I get older I get more prone to trying to, like Heavy said, stay the fuck in between 11-4 a.m. Because really- he’s right- the only people out there at that time are cops and robbers. Nobody else.[/quote]

I feel like a hypocrite writing this, because it is definitely “Try to be smarter than Me.” advice, but:

Most of what gets discussed on this board is technical in nature. It is the fun stuff, how to practice, or execute techniques. I spend most of my training time living in this category. Thomas Harris got it right when he wrote “technique is the religion of dangerous trades”. I take almost a spiritual comfort in the faith that training technique (including conditioning, strength, and all the shit that lets you display technique in this category) will help me prevail in conflict.

I should probably spend more time on tactics. In this category I stick all the game plans and scenarios that help someone get the upper hand. Simple stuff such as work the body goes here, as does circling to the outside of multiple enemies, shooting from cover, when to reload, when to move, really a bunch of important stuff that happens once the fight has started, or is about to start. I spend less time here than I should.

I put almost no energy on strategy. This is the big picture stuff, e.g. how to avoid conflict before it is even a possibility. This is the material that wins campaigns and wars, builds businesses, hell builds lives. It is the most important of the three. I half ass it. The extent of my energy seems to focus on observing what I call the Rule of the Three Stupid’s.

  1. Do not do stupid shit.
  2. Do not go stupid places.
  3. Do not associate with stupid people.

Like any good safety rules there is redundancy. If you steadfastly adhere to two out of the three you will likely survive with only colorful stories to show for it. This is especially important for anyone who’s personal or professional obligations force them to go stupid places, where trouble is likely to be (bad/rough neighborhoods) or by definition is (Firemen, police, first responders, military all go exactly where trouble is.) Break two and there will be scars if you are lucky. Break all three and you leave yourself at the mercy of luck. Luck is a bitch. She will fuck you up just because. So, if you want to go to a rough bar, or someplace that turns ugly after 11, don’t do stupid shit and only bring people who are assets if there is trouble. If, however, you are saddled with a family member or co-worker who cannot or will not act right, then stay your ass where it is safe.

Regards,

Robert A