Anyone doing a 531 hybrid routine. Meaning combining wendler 531 method with westsides dynamic effort method. I want to do this but would like to see how others have designed there routines in this manner.
I kind of started out this way, but have moved to more westsidish. Simply put I use those principles, but sometimes on max effort day I’ll just work to a 3 or 5 rep max and may or may not do singles after. It seemed a good idea to me, but after hitting a 3 rep max today I was too gassed for singles. Probably if you followed the percentages and reps (not repping out the last set) from 531 and then did your singles it’d be fine.
As far as dynamic work goes it has been awesome for my development as a lifter.
I’m not, but if I was to set it up, I imagine one could just use the 5/3/1 set up on max effort days, and then just keep dynamic effort days as normal. Weather you want to use all 4 lifts for max effort could throw a monkey wrench in there though, but maybe something like this:
Monday: Max effort upper, 5/3/1 bench, 5/3/1 (or not) Press, assistance
Tuesday: Max effort lower, 5/3/1 squat, 5/3/1 deadlifts, assitance
Thursday: dynamic effort upper
Friday: dynamic effort lower
I put the (or not) for press, bc it may work better to just keep overhead pressing as assistance instead of a main lift in this case. Squat and deadlift order could be switched, but I would make sure you test your max for the 2nd exercise after you do the first. In this example, test your deadlift after you squat, not when your fresh, so you wont kill yourself during the program
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[quote]horsepuss wrote:
Anyone doing a 531 hybrid routine. Meaning combining wendler 531 method with westsides dynamic effort method. I want to do this but would like to see how others have designed there routines in this manner.[/quote]
Posts like this make Jim Wendler cry.
I’m pretty sure that Jim in the past has advised against this, and even had something featured in the Blood and Chalk series about DE work…
But if for some crazy reason I tried to do it, I would just do DE Bench work on Overhead Press day first thing and just do some speed pulls after squats and before your accessory work on the squat day. The key here is to not get carried away. I would also just use straight weight (no bands or chains).
I think working in DE Box Squats would be a little more difficult, and honestly I’d be tempted to use box jumps instead.
I would also only do this if I stalled and I thought speed work would help. If I were progressing on 5/3/1 then I wouldn’t change a single thing.
EDIT: Found it – http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/blood_and_chalk_volume_10
“Can I combine 5/3/1 with Westside for Skinny Bastards? Why not just do one or the other and make progress?” - Jim Wendler.
That’s all you need to know. Pick one and stick with it. This question has been answered on more than one occasion.
Luke
I think MM runs something like this, but MM knows his body and how to progress I’d say…
Run a program, stick with it, then assess results .
As far as I understand it… Westside is built around max effort lifting. Lift rotation and DE days are used to to prevent burning out due to the constant max effort work. 5/3/1 is built around more frequent sub-maximal lifting. It isn’t necessary to use DE work to add volume because the sub-maximal lifting of 5/3/1 isn’t as taxing on the CNS, so you can get enough volume more effectively with conventional assistance work.
[quote]Karl Hungus wrote:
As far as I understand it… Westside is built around max effort lifting. Lift rotation and DE days are used to to prevent burning out due to the constant max effort work. 5/3/1 is built around more frequent sub-maximal lifting. It isn’t necessary to use DE work to add volume because the sub-maximal lifting of 5/3/1 isn’t as taxing on the CNS, so you can get enough volume more effectively with conventional assistance work.[/quote]
No.
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
[quote]Karl Hungus wrote:
As far as I understand it… Westside is built around max effort lifting. Lift rotation and DE days are used to to prevent burning out due to the constant max effort work. 5/3/1 is built around more frequent sub-maximal lifting. It isn’t necessary to use DE work to add volume because the sub-maximal lifting of 5/3/1 isn’t as taxing on the CNS, so you can get enough volume more effectively with conventional assistance work.[/quote]
No.[/quote]
Lol… well put.
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
[quote]Karl Hungus wrote:
As far as I understand it… Westside is built around max effort lifting. Lift rotation and DE days are used to to prevent burning out due to the constant max effort work. 5/3/1 is built around more frequent sub-maximal lifting. It isn’t necessary to use DE work to add volume because the sub-maximal lifting of 5/3/1 isn’t as taxing on the CNS, so you can get enough volume more effectively with conventional assistance work.[/quote]
No.[/quote]
“we know that the max effort method is superior to others. One must train at the highest average of a one-rep max as often as possible. I realized for most lifters this is impossible to do every workout. Thatâ??s why we use the dynamic effort method.” Louie Simmons
“Now if you take a step back and look, the PURPOSE of dynamic day is to basically move the weight from point A to point B as fast as possible” Jim Wendler
“Let?s look at the purpose of the dynamic method, or training with submaximal weights with maximal speed. This system builds a fast rate of force development. With bands and chains added, it teaches one to accelerate and reduce bar deceleration. With the lighter weights, one can control and perfect form.” Louie Simmons
Yes, it is a break from lifting heavy, but the point of DE days is not simply to prevent burnout.
If the point was simply to take a break from ME lifting, couldn’t they just have taken two more days off?
I actually think the DE day is the more important of the two. Stormthebeach had a a good post about it somewhere here recently, but the DE day is a chance to actually keep track of the total work that you’re doing. Of course, training only DE days would be far from optimal. Same goes for ME. Personally, I think that they have to work in conjunction to get the best results possible from either.
[quote]TRTblastcruise wrote:
“Now if you take a step back and look, the PURPOSE of dynamic day is to basically move the weight from point A to point B as fast as possible” Jim Wendler
“Let?s look at the purpose of the dynamic method, or training with submaximal weights with maximal speed. This system builds a fast rate of force development. With bands and chains added, it teaches one to accelerate and reduce bar deceleration. With the lighter weights, one can control and perfect form.” Louie Simmons
Yes, it is a break from lifting heavy, but the point of DE days is not simply to prevent burnout.
[/quote]
Read all of what I wrote. I in no way suggested that DE work magically prevents burnout or that it doesn’t have any benefits within the conjugate system (alongside ME work), otherwise they wouldn’t bother doing it.
But, Jim Wendler is constantly asked about incorporating DE days/assistance into 5/3/1 on his Q&A and he constantly replies that Westside style DE work would be a waste of time in 5/3/1.
[quote]Karl Hungus wrote:
[quote]TRTblastcruise wrote:
“Now if you take a step back and look, the PURPOSE of dynamic day is to basically move the weight from point A to point B as fast as possible” Jim Wendler
“Let?s look at the purpose of the dynamic method, or training with submaximal weights with maximal speed. This system builds a fast rate of force development. With bands and chains added, it teaches one to accelerate and reduce bar deceleration. With the lighter weights, one can control and perfect form.” Louie Simmons
Yes, it is a break from lifting heavy, but the point of DE days is not simply to prevent burnout.
[/quote]
Read all of what I wrote. I in no way suggested that DE work magically prevents burnout or that it doesn’t have any benefits within the conjugate system (alongside ME work), otherwise they wouldn’t bother doing it.
But, Jim Wendler is constantly asked about incorporating DE days/assistance into 5/3/1 on his Q&A and he constantly replies that Westside style DE work would be a waste of time in 5/3/1.
[/quote]
I do believe Wendler suggests things like plyometrics and box jumps and that kind of thing. It’s not Westside DE work, but it is speed work of a type.
[quote]Karl Hungus wrote:
[quote]TRTblastcruise wrote:
“Now if you take a step back and look, the PURPOSE of dynamic day is to basically move the weight from point A to point B as fast as possible” Jim Wendler
“Let?s look at the purpose of the dynamic method, or training with submaximal weights with maximal speed. This system builds a fast rate of force development. With bands and chains added, it teaches one to accelerate and reduce bar deceleration. With the lighter weights, one can control and perfect form.” Louie Simmons
Yes, it is a break from lifting heavy, but the point of DE days is not simply to prevent burnout.
[/quote]
Read all of what I wrote. I in no way suggested that DE work magically prevents burnout or that it doesn’t have any benefits within the conjugate system (alongside ME work), otherwise they wouldn’t bother doing it.
But, Jim Wendler is constantly asked about incorporating DE days/assistance into 5/3/1 on his Q&A and he constantly replies that Westside style DE work would be a waste of time in 5/3/1.
[/quote]
I did read what you wrote. You said DE days are incorporated to prevent burnout.
I’m not trying to argue, just threw some quotes in there like you did.
[quote]TRTblastcruise wrote:
[quote]Karl Hungus wrote:
[quote]TRTblastcruise wrote:
“Now if you take a step back and look, the PURPOSE of dynamic day is to basically move the weight from point A to point B as fast as possible” Jim Wendler
“Let?s look at the purpose of the dynamic method, or training with submaximal weights with maximal speed. This system builds a fast rate of force development. With bands and chains added, it teaches one to accelerate and reduce bar deceleration. With the lighter weights, one can control and perfect form.” Louie Simmons
Yes, it is a break from lifting heavy, but the point of DE days is not simply to prevent burnout.
[/quote]
Read all of what I wrote. I in no way suggested that DE work magically prevents burnout or that it doesn’t have any benefits within the conjugate system (alongside ME work), otherwise they wouldn’t bother doing it.
But, Jim Wendler is constantly asked about incorporating DE days/assistance into 5/3/1 on his Q&A and he constantly replies that Westside style DE work would be a waste of time in 5/3/1.
[/quote]
I did read what you wrote. You said DE days are incorporated to prevent burnout.
I’m not trying to argue, just threw some quotes in there like you did. [/quote]
No. If you read all of what I wrote, not just one sentence taken out of context… What I really said is that DE work allows more volume to be used in Westside training, in addition to the more taxing ME work which has to be done at very low volume and frequency otherwise lifters would end up burning out. The quote I posted backs that up.
Because 5/3/1 doesn’t have trainees working near their max and therefore can be done much more frequently than Westside ME work, there is no need to add in DE work to add volume and frequency.
You seem to be suggesting that I said that DE work has some sort of mystical healing effect that prevents burnout (I’ll leave it to Thibs to suggest that).
[quote]Karl Hungus wrote:
No. If you read all of what I wrote, not just one sentence taken out of context… What I really said is that DE work allows more volume to be used in Westside training, in addition to the more taxing ME work which has to be done at very low volume and frequency otherwise lifters would end up burning out. The quote I posted backs that up.
You seem to be suggesting that I said that DE work has some sort of mystical healing effect that prevents burnout (I’ll leave it to Thibs to suggest that).
[/quote]
The words you said exactly: Lift rotation and DE days are used to to prevent burning out due to the constant max effort work. That’s all I said.
As for that last part, WTF are you talking about? Seriously - nothing I wrote says anything about mystical anything.
Well there you go horsepuss. The answers are: Don’t do it!; Try it!; You’re an idiot!; and How could you be so stupid as to contradict the Wendler/Simmons?!
Take the concepts you like and leave behind what you don’t.