[quote]Angus1 wrote:
…
[/quote]
This is a very comprehensive post. Thumbs up.
The original 531 works for a lot of people including myself, but a lot of people got strong even before Jim Wendler was born. Pick any decent program that you think you’ll enjoy, believe in it, stick to it, and make sure all the other factors are conducive to reaching your goals. Yes, even a typical bodybuilding split can make you strong. If you like 5x5, then check out CT’s double progression stuffs on his thread in the micro-PA forum. I haven’t tried it, just skimmed through it, but it sounds similar so give it a look.
[quote]Chris-Adams wrote:
What are your lifts? (you have already mentioned your bench press)
If you plan on continuing to use to use 5/3/1 it might be a good idea to post on the 5/3/1 forum on here as Jim Wendler will reply. [/quote]
Bench 100-104
Squat 115-120
dead 165-170
ohp 67-70
bodyweight 74
[quote]TrevorLPT wrote:
Lots to cover here. Here are some ideas and answers in no particular order:
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Yes, people do get stronger using the original 5/3/1 format. I am one of those people.
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The fact that Wendler later came out with changes in Beyond does not make 5/3/1 a bad program, it just makes Beyond 5/3/1 a BETTER program in Wendler’s opinion, in most cases. Personally I’ve run cycles of the original and with the changes made in Beyond (FSL and Jokers) and both worked for me.
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“so basically in the first weeks of the cycles i was doing 5 reps with around 75% in the 2nd and 3d week this doesnt get much better. How am i supposed to build strength with this?” Firstly, you’re supposed to do as many reps as possible with 75%, not 5. Secondly, you can get stronger while using sub maximal weights, provided that you push yourself and add weight over time.
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What do you mean that your were doing the program with “nothing extra?” Which template were you following?
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Why were you doing 5 reps in your 5’s week? Im pretty sure my first cycle had me hitting around 10 reps in my first 5s week, as you’re meant to push the last set.
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“The whole 531 basic template is becoming 2 extra warm up sets and 1 workset and now i add some extra worksets in the form of jokers and fsl. The only difference is starting to be in one week i do 5reps the other triples and in the last i do singles.” You’re doing things wrong.
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“As i move up the tm weight every cycle the lifts basically start feeling heavier.” That’s what happens as you increase the weight you’re lifting. Heavy weights feel heavier.
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I really think you’re doing some pretty fundamental things wrong and therefore not actually doing the program. If you’d like some help, post an exact workout you’ve done and briefly outline the format of your cycles and deloads. That said, you also sound like you don’t really “believe” in the program, so its unlikely to work for you anyway. There are lots of other programs to chose from. It sounds like you have a pretty clear idea of what you’re looking for so I’m sure you’ll find something.
[/quote]
Hi, I understand that any program that has you progressing in weight systematically will work. My problem is more that is seems very sub optimal to have this little volume in the 80+% range.
The doing 5 reps with 75% was a write up mistake, i did amrap on every last set on every workout. Some workouts i reached 12 reps with this, but still i dont see the use of 12 reps with a weight that is in my opinion only optimal for hypertrofy and even that it wont achieve with only 12 reps. I am sure this weight and max reps has a place in a good program , i just dont see it/ understand why it would be usefull when it is being the only real workset.
I started with nothing added, but i think after 1 workout i already added boring but big. Which i dropped after 6 weeks and exchanged for jokers and fsl.
The bbb is another thing i cant wrap my mind around… 50% of the tm, had me working with 45% of my actual 1rm. Now i might be and probably i am wrong on this, but everything i read on strength and hypertrofie training has me believing 45% is pretty useless for muscle building.
I meant the same weight is even starting to feel heavier, my body was getting used to lower weights and lower volume. So where i did warm up sets with say 70 kg in the past on the bench, it now sometimes is workset weight and feels like serious weight, not to mention my 90%+ work, wich obviously is supposed to feel heavy, but im saying it started to feel heavier.
To be honest i think with the added jokers this is starting to feel better, but on the original 531 this was crazy.
If i wouldnt believe in the program i wouldnt be doing it, like i said i know every program that progresses systematically will work,its just that im a micromanaging guy. I never “just do” something. I need to know why i am doing things and i am constantly questioning assumptions and trying to optimalize what i do.
I am not someone who just eats as much as i can or eats 6000 calories to be safe like certain people advise, when i can finetune it and eat 4000 calories and get 95% of the same gains and many less kilo’s of fat.
I know especially because i am not strong i come across as a hater that is disrespecting some accomplished guy in Wendler, but i really dont see things so black and white as to where i just have to accept everything from someone that knows more than me on a specific topic. I will question things and give my opinion and if i get schooled in the process i will benefit from it and get smarter.
[quote]Angus1 wrote:
Jim Wendler and his 5/3/1 program are held in high regard on this website so if you come across as knocking him or his program you can expect a fiery response.
Plenty of people use the program and achieve very good results however that doesn’t mean there aren’t a few issues with it. One of the things Wendler followers used to hate was when a lifter would bastardise the program. One of the common problems lifters had was the lack of heavy lifting. As you said it’s basically 2 warm up sets then one all out set for as many reps as possible.
This works for many but some lifters found 1 all out set for reps wasn’t enough to make strength gains so they would add too it. So what happened was a few years later Wendler himself changed his own program and added first set last, working back down, joker sets etc…
Jim is smart he knows that different lifters respond to different stimulus so he released more books with many variations from the original. There are now so many variations that you could say your doing 5/3/1 yet could be doing something completely different to anyone else doing 5/3/1.
As far as your 5x5 program is concerned you should realise that you can’t continually keep adding weight to 5 sets of 5 reps at the same weight. Eventually you will stall. One of the popular ways of progression is to switch to 3 x 5. So it’s the same thing with ramping to a top weight then doing 3 sets of same weight instead of 5. When you stall 3 times on that weight then you just ramp up to 1 top set of 5. Doing it this way you can stretch out your 5x5 program for a long time.
Once you eventually do stall on 5s you can deload and work back up in 3s. 5x3, 3x3 1x3 etc… the possibilities are endless.
This style of lifting is possibly considered old school but plenty of powerlifters still lift in a similar fashion. Andy Bolten and Ed Coan use a similar style of progression.
[/quote]
Thats why the program feels so “random” to me, because with the beyond 531 templates, you can basically do whatever you want (with all the variations and autoregulation )in the 80+ % ranges.
It seems clear that this is where the gains are made, but to me it is starting to look like as long as you are doing something progressively in that range you will be good.
And the basic 531 template just turned into a warmup but with specific percentages + 1 workset.
I will probably stick to the program some more and see where it goes.
But if i dont see changes i will consider your suggestion very much.
I already switched between 3x5 and 5x5 in the past but this "Once you eventually do stall on 5s you can deload and work back up in 3s. 5x3, 3x3 1x3 etc… the possibilities are endless. " sounds very interesting and new to me and i will look into it more, thanks.
[quote]Mizery wrote:
The original 531 works for a lot of people including myself, but a lot of people got strong even before Jim Wendler was born. Pick any decent program that you think you’ll enjoy, believe in it, stick to it, and make sure all the other factors are conducive to reaching your goals. Yes, even a typical bodybuilding split can make you strong. If you like 5x5, then check out CT’s double progression stuffs on his thread in the micro-PA forum. I haven’t tried it, just skimmed through it, but it sounds similar so give it a look.[/quote]
" If you like 5x5, then check out CT’s double progression stuffs on his thread in the micro-PA forum."
I will give it a look.
[quote]Respeezy wrote:
[quote]Mizery wrote:
The original 531 works for a lot of people including myself, but a lot of people got strong even before Jim Wendler was born. Pick any decent program that you think you’ll enjoy, believe in it, stick to it, and make sure all the other factors are conducive to reaching your goals. Yes, even a typical bodybuilding split can make you strong. If you like 5x5, then check out CT’s double progression stuffs on his thread in the micro-PA forum. I haven’t tried it, just skimmed through it, but it sounds similar so give it a look.[/quote]
" If you like 5x5, then check out CT’s double progression stuffs on his thread in the micro-PA forum."
I will give it a look.[/quote]
Paul Carter’s Primer 4: Big, Bad, Basic Workouts also sounds like a similar program to 5x5, but it’s 4x4.
I’ll read it.
Jim Wendler uses 5/3/1 and it seems to have worked alright for him. Consider posting on the 5/3/1 forums, there’s a pretty good chance you’ll get an answer from the man himself.
[quote]Chris-Adams wrote:
Why have you done this for 3 months and plan to continue it despite not believing in the principles of the program? Do something else if you don’t believe it will work.[/quote]
This. No matter how good a program is, lack of belief in it will kill it.
[quote] its just that im a micromanaging guy. I never “just do” something. I need to know why i am doing things and i am constantly questioning assumptions and trying to optimalize what i do.
[/quote]
I would like to correct you here. Your approach would only be valid if you either had the results and experience, or sufficient education on the subject at hand to be able to question and make assumptions.
Right now, you aren’t seeing results and reading a bunch of online articles does not make you educated.
You are not a hater. But you are rather confused.
You just have to recognize that Wendler squated over a thousand pounds and you are a noob. Does that put things in perspective?
I am only writing this because i find you have a severe problem with your thought process. I agree with the others that you should do another program but if you continue with this mindset, you may not see results on anything else.
[quote]Respeezy wrote:
I started with nothing added, but i think after 1 workout i already added boring but big. Which i dropped after 6 weeks and exchanged for jokers and fsl.
[/quote]
What assistance template are you following now? What does “with nothing added” mean? Like you went in, did the OHP for 3 sets and then left?
[quote]TrevorLPT wrote:
[quote]Respeezy wrote:
I started with nothing added, but i think after 1 workout i already added boring but big. Which i dropped after 6 weeks and exchanged for jokers and fsl.
[/quote]
What assistance template are you following now? What does “with nothing added” mean? Like you went in, did the OHP for 3 sets and then left? [/quote]
I think this right here might be the core of the problem
Even if he did nothing extra (only the 5/3/1 main lift and gets out), that does not explain getting weaker. Anything in the 5/3/1 templates besides the main lifts that comprise the 5/3/1-- are assistance. Variable and pliable enough to be adjusted to YOUR personal goals, but certainly not necessary to getting stronger.
The problem here is that we aren’t getting the whole story. That’s why I asked what the point is. He seems to have already decided 5/3/1 is no good. That’s why I refrained from discussing it really.
But for those readers who could learn something? Here:
Getting weaker on a PROVEN program? Start looking at the basics: lifts, eating, rest. Which of these are failing? There are a lot of dynamics here that will affect the outcome.
Lifts? We already know 5/3/1 is a proven program. Is the lifter executing properly?
Eating? If you are eating 4000+ calories with 200g protein (minimum) you are fine. That covers 95% of lifters.
Resting? Sleeping 8 hours per night? Getting naps in the day to supplement if necessary?
Most people “getting weaker” are failing somewhere in that chain. Look: life happens. Anybody that isn’t 20 years old living at mom’s house knows that adult responsibilities tend to eat up our time. So we can’t be perfect in all these areas. Sometimes our diet suffers, our rest suffers, our lifts suffer. Stresses and distractions can cause that. As such, we are REALISTIC that our strength gains WILL be slowed by failing in areas of these 3 keys. We accept our culpability in that, and don’t blame the program.
As for 5/3/1, even the basic version should get you stronger because you are increasing the weights as per plan. A SLOWER plan than say, SS or 5x5s. But still a periodized, planned increase in cycles.
The reason 5/3/1 works, is that the variations you can apply are sneakily, while you weren’t paying attention Jim did this to you, REQUIRING YOU TO HAVE THE BASIC COMPOUND LIFTS THAT MAKE PEOPLE STRONGER as the core of the program. And letting you add the fluff around it to fit your precise desire. So most lifters almost stalker-like infatuation with abz0rz and biceps can still be satiated; while 5/3/1 snuck the actual lifts that actually mattered into their workouts. That clever git…
It’s not the only plan that works. Many others do. Many others that also include the primary compound lifts. The lifts that are the only lifts you will ever truly need to get stronger.
Any lifting program should be given a dedicated 6-months to determine your assessment. Dedicated meaning DTFP. At the end, you can look at your numbers, your body shape, any other physical markers and see if you made progress. On PROVEN programs, of which there are dozens… you WILL see progress if you truly put in a serious effort.
And nobody cares here if you are “hating” on Wendler. I’m quite certain Wendler doesn’t care. Ultimately, none of US care what YOU do. It’s YOUR body, YOUR life, YOUR lifting, YOUR goals. We don’t have a dime in it. You can hear us, you can ignore us, you can take our words and rearrange them into gentle haikus.
But when you are asking questions to which you have already made your mind up on the answers, any incoming evidence is going to be summarily prejudged and therefore NOT helping you. Your mind is made up.
[quote]
But when you are asking questions to which you have already made your mind up on the answers, any incoming evidence is going to be summarily prejudged and therefore NOT helping you. Your mind is made up. [/quote]
I adressed this in previous posts,i adressed that i am not really getting much weaker but i am definitely not getting stronger (yet), i adressed that i eat enough and sleep enough, i adressed that i dont necessarily dislike the program but i just dont see/understand the added value of it over just doing your own autoregulated work in the 80+ % range and that is not the same as per se disliking it.
You really feel at my lowely intermediate level i should dedicate 6 months to see progress? I am not experienced enough to judge that, but it seems very weird.
I feel you did not even read everything before you made your post.
My topic was basically about 2 things:
- Discussing the drop in volume, which most likely has to be the source of my problem here.
and
- Discussing 531 as a program because it seems very random to me (the sets the percentages) and i still would like an explaining on this from someone.
You are obviously entitled to say what you like, yet you dont even adress any of the topics i put up for discussion. I am not an idiot and like i also adressed before, i know any program with progressive overload will result in gains, i also know if i just keep it up i will start to see gains, that is why i am not necessarily thinking about quitting (to all th people that asked why i am doing i program i dont believe in).
So this topic is not about “5/3/1 doesnt work” which you seem to be adressing. It is about
1.The effects of the difference in volume in my programs and
2.The thoughts behind the 531 program.
I know when i write things tend to turn into an incoherent rant often, so maybe i havent been able to display this properly, if so my bad.
If you consider yourself an intermediate and are open to experimentation, get adventurous and try some different programs.
Smolov jr, Surovetsky, Conjugate System, Layer System, etc.
Attaining knowledge through practical application will suit you better than spending time contemplating and debating on things everyone other than yourself seems to understand. This is not an insult, it’s just how it is.
Respeezy, your words:
Hence, the points about 5/3/1.
YOU question the volume, as you seem to have already decided that volume is the answer (in your beginner “expert” knowledge).
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Drop in volume is NOT the problem here.
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5/3/1 is anything BUT random. Did you read the book? If not, I suggest you do. Those percentages, the cycles, the waves, the reps were set up for very specific reasons.
Now, YOU are free to do what YOU like. But here’s the rundown of why I say to dedicate yourself to a PROVEN program for SIX months minimum: Those programs know more than you do.
[quote]dt79 wrote:
If you consider yourself an intermediate and are open to experimentation, get adventurous and try some different programs.
Smolov jr, Surovetsky, Conjugate System, Layer System, etc.
Attaining knowledge through practical application will suit you better than spending time contemplating and debating on things everyone other than yourself seems to understand. This is not an insult, it’s just how it is.[/quote]
^^^^This.
[quote]Respeezy wrote:
made your post.
- Discussing the drop in volume, which most likely has to be the source of my problem here.
and
- Discussing 531 as a program because it seems very random to me (the sets the percentages) and i still would like an explaining on this from someone.
[/quote]
1- There are loads of options in the Beyond book to increase the volume. 5x5/ 5x3, 5x1 after the 5/3/1 sets as an example. Have you read the book?
2- The program starts light but you should be aiming to beat rep records regularly (all different reps). I don’t understand how you think it’s random, it’s a very simple program that will get heavier in time.
It has been mentioned before that there is a 5/3/1 forum on this website where Wendler posts himself.
Also you say your nutrition is fine but have not given any details. Often on this forum the reason for stalling is they are not eating enough despite thinking they are.
[quote]Respeezy wrote:
You really feel at my lowely intermediate level i should dedicate 6 months to see progress? I am not experienced enough to judge that, but it seems very weird.
[/quote]
Do you feel that 6 months is a long amount of time on a training timeline?