How? If more androgen receptors means that testosterone (whether naturally produced, as in men, or exogenous) will have a greater effect on the muscles in that area, how does that not translate to a bigger bench press? Please explain, because I really don’t understand your reasoning.
I spotted him for 2 lightning fast reps of 200kg. He also high pulled 230-240 to around his chest. I could barely lift 200kg in the deadlift at the time. So I wanted to refuse the spot.
Granted I didn’t phrase the question well.
All the muscles would be growing at different rates but in the same proportion whether natural or assisted. Hence the androgen receptor argument doesn’t make much sense.
I was just being a douche bag.
I used to lift with a guy who’s working set was 315 when I could barely get the barbell up. I think my only purpose was to record his last words.
I don’t see your reasoning either. Test isn’t the only thing that determines muscle size. If androgen receptors were the only things that determined muscular size, you should be right, but I see no indication of that. There are a lot of things that determines muscle size and strength and if you increase a particular factor one that physiologically favors the shoulder girdle without altering the others, proportions would change. If you were correct, trained and untrained individuals would maintain the same proportions which is demonstrably false.
You are absolutely right. I was trying to point out that his argument about more AR in the shoulder area equating to disproportionately larger benches on steroids was flawed because if it were true, we would be seeing the same thing on naturals. My apologies (to @chris_ottawa as well) , perhaps my English failed me today lol.
That’s the complete opposite of how I understand things. Assuming that the shoulder girdle does in fact have more androgen receptors and that the density of androgen receptors in a muscle group does in fact affect how the muscle responds to the anabolic effects or androgenic hormones, it only makes sense that increased androgenic hormone levels would equal more hypertrophy in the muscles that contain more androgen receptors.
We have to add another two categories to natural and assisted - male and female. The physical differences between men and women are largely due to hormone levels, and that is a scientific fact. There are a lot of natural women with muscular legs, but significantly less with a well developed upper body.
[quote=“dt79, post:46, topic:227781, full:true”]
more AR in the shoulder area equating to disproportionately larger benches on steroids was flawed because if it were true, we would be seeing the same thing on naturals[/quote]
How? In men vs. women, yes, largely because of testosterone.
Perhaps I have not made my point properly so let’s start again.
I’m not sure why this has to be over-complicated.
It’s very simple actually.
Are naturals experiencing disproportionate growth in the shoulder girdle? If not, why would an assisted lifter experience it simply due to increased amounts of the same hormone.
It depends what you consider to be proportionate growth. Do men not make faster progress than women in the muscles of the shoulder girdle? How often do you see a girl bench 135lbs. in a commercial gym? A man who can’t do that would be embarrassed. You have natural women at one end of the spectrum and enhanced men at the other, natural men and enhanced women would be somewhere in the middle. The idea is that androgenic hormones have an anabolic effect on all muscles, but the magnitude of the effect would vary between muscle groups depending on the amount of androgen receptors and level of androgenic hormones. It’s like if I have ten buckets in my yard and you have two, who is going to catch more water when it rains?
Anyway, it’s unrealistic to expect all muscles (or lifts) to progress at the same rate, weak muscle groups and weak lifts vary from person to person and for various reasons.
Their point is that you should not be comparing men vs. women, but men (using assistance) vs. men (not using assistance).
Men, regardless of using or not have the same amount of androgen receptors in their shoulder girdle. If the notion that androgen receptors equaled greater gains, THEN a natural man’s muscles surrounding shoulder girdle would be noticeably (significantly) larger than other muscles.
After making several mental gymnastic hoops, the conclusion that the effects of increased androgen receptors in the shoulder girdle makes a noticeable difference in the bench press, when using AAS, does not compute.
I don’t think you understand. Not everyone has the same amount of androgen receptors, that is going to vary from person to person. Increased androgen receptors doesn’t equal greater gains, it equals an increased response to androgenic hormones in those particular muscles. And I think that training might make a difference too. On top of that, this isn’t my theory, this is something that other people with more knowledge on the subject than myself have concluded. Do you think that increased muscle doesn’t equal increased strength potential?
And nobody said anything about comparing men vs. women except me. Why would you not consider women in this debate? Most of the differences between men and women have to do with hormones, ever notice that women who take steroids sometimes start to look like men?
I thought it was clearer, I meant the amount of androgen receptors I have now, does not increase when I take AAS.
Right, if what you are suggesting is true, that would be true exogenous or endogenous, right?
I think we will have to agree to disagree since you’re basing this off someone else’s theory.
Not that I’m aware of, no.
Yes, that’s why I’m considering women in this equation.
Shit man, I have too much free time on my hands. I need to find a new hobby. Maybe I should find myself a girlfriend, but I don’t think my wife will be happy.
Yeah, you can try to find more information on this, I can only assume that it’s true since it’s from a credible source (Nuckols). For some reason he didn’t include references in his article. If you are really interested you can send him an e-mail or facebook message.
I tried looking around for more information on this, unless you have a subscription to researchgate or similar sites there isn’t anything else publicly available that I can find. I have heard it elsewhere too, but Nuckols was the best source I could easily find when flipcollar disputed my comment.
Fuck it, I was going to write a long eloquent response, but I’m with DT.
@chris_ottawa If you’re every stateside, I’ll buy you a finger of scotch and I’ll set you straight.
Yeah I should be able to. I may check with Neil first and see if he is ok with me posting it, and even see (as no one is selling it or even has it available) if he would be interested in me putting the whole book somewhere on the net to benefit other lifters and continue his brothers legacy…
It does increase, not only would there be a higher concentration of AR, but they would upregulate, too.