50 More Years in Iraq?

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
21

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
No, I was thinking more along the lines of tactics. Yes, we have million dollar tanks and f-16’s but we are fighting the war more like a police force than a military force, while the other side fights with car and suicide bombers. Both conflicts are urban guerilla conflicts. [/quote]

Makes sense.

Well, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is alive and kicking (that was just mean, sorry). It’s not ending up anytime soon.

A piece of advice: Don’t try to use that analogy again. The Zionists had the worst of intentions regarding Palestine. There’s enough written evidence of their disdain for the Arabs who lived in Palestine to fill books. They clearly were interested in expropriation. That’s not something the US is up to, even in the minds of the wildest conspiracy theorists.

22

Is the American public war weary? I’d give that one a ‘Yes’. Would they love to hand this off to some UN-type peace keeping force and drastically reduce our presence in Iraq? There’s another ‘Yes’. Is the United States spending itself into bankruptcy to fight this war? Probably; maybe not as a percentage of GDP though.

I would say that the Plan is right on schedule.

23

[quote]lixy wrote:
Well, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is alive and kicking (that was just mean, sorry). It’s not ending up anytime soon.
[/quote]

You summed up my thoughts on the situation in the above sentence.

ie: either is the Iraq situation.

24

[quote]lixy wrote:
Will the US military ever get out of Iraq? I’m putting money on NO![/quote]

In light of your newest thread, I think… You never had any respect for the Iraqi citizen and lawmakers. They will vote to ask the USA to leave, and we will be reluctantly happy to abide their wishes, as well as the wishes of those of us at home. Then Iraq will be in their own hands.

Without the oppressive daily threat that Saddam represented.

And you still think having Saddam still in power was better then what we have today. Isn’t that what you said, lixy? I remember specifically asking you this on another thread, and you agreed. Bravo.

25

[quote]kroby wrote:
lixy wrote:
Will the US military ever get out of Iraq? I’m putting money on NO!

In light of your newest thread, I think… You never had any respect for the Iraqi citizen and lawmakers. They will vote to ask the USA to leave, and we will be reluctantly happy to abide their wishes, as well as the wishes of those of us at home. Then Iraq will be in their own hands.

Without the oppressive daily threat that Saddam represented.

And you still think having Saddam still in power was better then what we have today. Isn’t that what you said, lixy? I remember specifically asking you this on another thread, and you agreed. Bravo.[/quote]

Lixy destroyed himself, Its great I mean sure I had to push a few buttons but all in all Lixy is his own worst enemy.

26

I don’t think the US will be in Iraq in the sense that is now, for fifty years. I think we will however, have some involvment with the middle east, forever. The US has ALWAYS been involved in the middle east, since it was founded.

It doesn’t seem practical that the US would be able to maintain a decent force in Iraq with all the stuff going on with Iran, and now Russia with the missle defense system. I think at some point someone is going to get pushed a lil too far, and the US will have other things to demand its attention besides Iraq. While it would be nice to leave Iraq, and have a period of peace, I think we are going to leave Iraq and go headlong into another war.

That might be a little far fetched, but it is the one possibility that I fear most.

27

[quote]vroom wrote:

How come Jerffy and Thunderbolt don’t agree with your statements?

They are under the impression that Iraq was important for other reasons… or so it would seem.

Jerffy, Thunder, you guys almost ready to cede American authority to a world government yet? You guys loathe GWB right?[/quote]

Just saw this: and no, I don’t agree.

The Iraq war was in many ways based on the opposite - something had to be done in the failure of “international institutions” to provide security to nations and regions.

I have no truck with HH’s new attachment to the CFR-as-conspiracy theory.

As for GWB, my opinion is low, but my dislike is based on rational reasons, not spooky innuendoes about what he is “really up to” (world governments! Conquest of oil! and so forth).

28

[quote]lixy wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Ooh, ooh, I feel left out. What do I only care about? I won’t even fire back at ya, promise. I’m simply amused and curious in trying to predict what you’ll say.

Nah, I won’t put you in the JeffR bunch. That’s the “Rightwingoverse” as Pookie puts it.

TB and Zap are a bit less brainwashed, but in the event of someone criticizing the US on any account, they tend to join JeffR

You come closer to the center in my opinion. You clearly are less reticent to voice criticism at the administration when necessary. I’m certain you could benefit from diversifying your news sources. Try something European once in a while (not the US versions, they’re usually edulcorated not to shock your sensibilities). Might expand your horizons…

Since we’re at it, let’s see about the other regulars. we have a totally different category for guys like Tokoya who breathes to bash Muslims wherever they are. I’d say he’s the same as JustTheFact, but while the latter delight at accusing the Jews for every ill of this world, Tokoya replicates that for the Arabs/Muslims.

In the “objective” guys category, I’ll have to give the gold to etaco. An amazing poster who, despite our obvious differences of opinion, I respect so much for cool-headedness, insight and poise. I guess it’s easier to come off that way when you don’t voice your opinion on every single topic.

Then would come Varq and Pookie. Both are litterally living encyclopedias who are pretty objective.

Right after those, I’d put Dustin closely followed by Vroom.

Further to the left, we’d come across the Finish guy/gal Karva, Beowolf, 100meters in that order. Of course, after that, it’d be Brad, LifticusMaximus and myself.

Here you go: T-Nation political forum’s spectrum in a nutshell![/quote]

Just an observation, on Lixy’s “spectrum” those at one distant end of the “Rightwingoverse” are brainwashed - but ipso facto, there should be an equivalent “Leftwingoverse” of equal brainwashing on the other side.

If you look squarely at Lixy’s model, in that unfortunate extreme category, he includes Brad, Lifticus, and - heh - himself.

29

[quote]lixy wrote:

I’ll say HH cares about the US. JeffR and TB only care about defending the “rationale” of Bush.[/quote]

As usual, you would be dead wrong. But why break the streak you have going?

30

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

I have no truck with HH’s new attachment to the CFR-as-conspiracy theory.

[/quote]

Thunder,
I respect your views greatly.

I hope I’m wrong about the CFR. Are you familiar with the work of Dr. Carroll Quigley? Harvard Prof, DoD advisor, worked for the US Dept of the Navy, and a whole lot of other things. He’s not a whack job. He crows about the Elite and its goals.

I used to downplay conspiracy theories, but this man is very convincing.

Seriously, I hope I’m wrong. Show me I’m in error. I would be truly grateful.

31

My crystal ball tells me that 50 years from now, lixy will still be full of shit.

Besides, who cares about the bases? Bases aren’t occupation so the point is mot. Seems the only people to care about our bases is lixy and Osama…Separated at birth?

32

[quote]pat36 wrote:
Besides, who cares about the bases? [/quote]

Probably not Americans. If they had foreign bases on their soil, maybe they’d start caring.

Bases in over 120 countries is enough to scare the shit out of any sensible person. You seem to think that your sphere of influence is the whole planet, and that causes a great deal of deaths, pain and suffering.

Answer this: Would you not care if, say China. set up military bases in Georgia? I’m curious to see what your take on that is.

33

[quote]lixy wrote:
pat36 wrote:
Besides, who cares about the bases?

Probably not Americans. If they had foreign bases on their soil, maybe they’d start caring.

Bases in over 120 countries is enough to scare the shit out of any sensible person. You seem to think that your sphere of influence is the whole planet, and that causes a great deal of deaths, pain and suffering.

Answer this: Would you not care if, say China. set up military bases in Georgia? I’m curious to see what your take on that is.[/quote]

Did you ever wonder WHY America has bases all over the planet? We’re certainly not colonizing, as most people want to come here. Why is that?

Then, if all those countries felt threatened by our presence, why don’t they simply all kick us out at the same time? We certainly couldn’t handle something like that.

Could it be that American presence is somehow beneficial to the host nation? Why are Americans and NOT Chinese invited to station troops in a host country? Could it be that Americans are GOOD?

So Lixy, instead of supposing that America is the neighborhood or global bully, how about examining your premises?

34

[quote]pat36 wrote:

Besides, who cares about the bases? Bases aren’t occupation so the point is mot. Seems the only people to care about our bases is lixy and Osama…Separated at birth?[/quote]

I’ve always been amazed at how this is a “legitimate” grievance.

OBL may hate the presence of US military bases in various Muslim countries - no doubt that is completely true.

But so what? Does that mean the complaint is legitimate? The apologists around here and elsewhere seem to think so in this “the US is making him do this with their occupation via military bases!”

My answer is “who cares?” Just because OBL believes that doesn’t mean he is entitled to a change in that policy nor to use violence to hope to intimidate countries into change. After all, if a base is in a sovereign nation not under OBL’s control (that is all of them, by the way), it’s not OBL’s call as to whether that base is there, it’s that country’s call. He can hate it, but it is not his prerogative.

If I was suddenly enraged at the presence of Japanese owned companies and property in Canada, the correct answer is “so what?” That is Canada’s call to make, not mine.

If I were to start waging my campaign of violence against the Japanese in Japan and where the Japanese visit for their actions in Canada, would any of the numbskulls around here say “well, Thunder’s violence is motivated by his hatred of what the Japanese are doing with permission in Canada, so we should consider that it might be Japan’s fault…”

Of course not. This shibboleth that there is any merit in OBL’s grievance is based on utter nonsense - if OBL doesn’t like what is happening in countries that he isn’t a part of, wouldn’t we say to mind his own business?

Yup - because that is exactly what his apologists would tell an American who was complaining about what another country was doing with its own sovereignty: butt out and it’s none of your business.

We don’t hear that of course - we are treated with faint justifications, as if the military bases are real grievances. Is he mad that we have bases in Europe? What is the difference in having bases in Europe via permission and having them anywhere else via permission?

The apologists never say.

35

[quote]lixy wrote:
pat36 wrote:
Besides, who cares about the bases?

Probably not Americans. If they had foreign bases on their soil, maybe they’d start caring.

Bases in over 120 countries is enough to scare the shit out of any sensible person. You seem to think that your sphere of influence is the whole planet, and that causes a great deal of deaths, pain and suffering.

Answer this: Would you not care if, say China. set up military bases in Georgia? I’m curious to see what your take on that is.[/quote]

Answer: I would wander why they where building a base right by 100,000 infantry men and Army rangers.(Thats not a smart thing to do!).

36

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Then, if all those countries felt threatened by our presence, why don’t they simply all kick us out at the same time? We certainly couldn’t handle something like that. [/quote]

I beg to differ.

You could take out ANY non-nuclear country.

Nice try HH. Going into the offensive will not work this time.

My question is simple: Would you or would you not be pissed if foreign troops were stationed a few blocks away from your house? I for one, would feel that the sovereignty of my country has been violated. How about you? Answer that, then we can dwell into the “inherently good American” business.

37

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
I’ve always been amazed at how this is a “legitimate” grievance.
[/quote]

I think that Al Queda, or the islamic extremists, somehow claim “ownership” across a large chunk of land that includes many countries.

While the grievance is not legitimate, I think it is one that resonates within an extreme interpretation of their religion… and of course fundamentalist religion seems to trump government and law no matter which fundamentalists are being discussed.

I don’t see this stuff as a “legitimate claim” but instead as a type of propaganda that works well within certain regions.

38

[quote]vroom wrote:

I think that Al Queda, or the islamic extremists, somehow claim “ownership” across a large chunk of land that includes many countries.

While the grievance is not legitimate, I think it is one that resonates within an extreme interpretation of their religion… and of course fundamentalist religion seems to trump government and law no matter which fundamentalists are being discussed.

I don’t see this stuff as a “legitimate claim” but instead as a type of propaganda that works well within certain regions.[/quote]

Exactly correct - which means a discussion of “the US should think about doing things differently to stop Islamism” is a waste of time.

It would be the same as your family getting beat up because they won’t pay the mob money the mob is asking for. Is the right answer “well, even though the mob isn’t entitled to the money, they do want it, so maybe we should acquiesce and give them what they want so they will stop beating up my family and friends”?

That is exactly the case here - Islamists want something they have no entitlement to, yet brainless left-wing apologists (and right-wing increasingly) keep providing philosophical cover for the Islamists, claiming their grievances have some semblance of merit.

And your jibe about “fundamentalist religions” being equivalent across the board is in this matter, as you intend it, nonsense, but rarely can you resist that impulse.

39

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Exactly correct[/quote]

It’s nice to actually agree on something!

Too bad it didn’t last. :wink:

I don’t believe your conclusion is accurate, though it may apply to some things.

In particular, understanding the use of propaganda can allow one to act in ways that are harder to use as justification by those trying to spread the propaganda.

In the long term, perhaps combined with military actions, finding a way to do so may prove more effective and less expensive than purely military efforts.

[quote]It would be the same as your family getting beat up because they won’t pay the mob money the mob is asking for. Is the right answer “well, even though the mob isn’t entitled to the money, they do want it, so maybe we should acquiesce and give them what they want so they will stop beating up my family and friends”?

That is exactly the case here - [/quote]

This is not “exactly” the case.

You don’t get to throw it all away like this. Prior to the formation of the extreme Islamic movements, there were still things being done that pushed moderates to become extremists. However, the past is now the past and we have to deal with the present.

Things are not so simple, and I think you realize that. Of course you have to fight terrorist extremists, but you also have to find ways to fight the creation of more extremists.

Well, you don’t have to, you can also have endless costly wars.

Nonsense? You don’t find that fundamentalists, or extremists, use religion to justify illegal actions? Doing “God’s Will” seems to give people a free pass to do a lot of crap.

40

[quote]lixy wrote:
pat36 wrote:
Besides, who cares about the bases?

Probably not Americans. If they had foreign bases on their soil, maybe they’d start caring.

Bases in over 120 countries is enough to scare the shit out of any sensible person. You seem to think that your sphere of influence is the whole planet, and that causes a great deal of deaths, pain and suffering.

Answer this: Would you not care if, say China. set up military bases in Georgia? I’m curious to see what your take on that is.[/quote]

Would I like it? No, not really. Would I kill Chinese people over it, most certainly not. If got really mad, I write my congressman. I wouldn’t like it but it would not drive me to murder, unlike the people whose actions you defend.