T Nation

5/3/1 While Cutting

Hey I’m starting cutting these days and I’m pretty sure 5/3/1 is the way to go for me. Do you guys have any recommended variations for the assistance work?

Higher rep schemes and lower rest times. Throw in the prowler for conditioning. Otherwise, follow whatever works for you for cutting diet-wise.

Jim wrote a conditioning template in one of his q and a articles here

[quote]Broski wrote:
Higher rep schemes and lower rest times. Throw in the prowler for conditioning. Otherwise, follow whatever works for you for cutting diet-wise. [/quote]
I ment specifics like X exercise on Y day for Z sets and W reps. Any suggestions?

[quote]yanivgoft wrote:

[quote]Broski wrote:
Higher rep schemes and lower rest times. Throw in the prowler for conditioning. Otherwise, follow whatever works for you for cutting diet-wise. [/quote]
I ment specifics like X exercise on Y day for Z sets and W reps. Any suggestions? [/quote]

Honestly, just read 5-3-1, there’s plenty in there for assistance exercises. As already mentioned, if your focus is cutting you’ll want higher reps and less rest. Here’s a rough start though:

Assitance on BP/MP days:

  1. BP or MP - 5/3/1 scheme
  2. Tris and/or Chest: DB Presses (flat bench, incline, decline); CG bench; Illegal Wides; Incline BP; Dips; JM Press
  3. Lats: DB Rows; BB Rows/Kroc Rows; Chest Supported Rows
    4a: Upper Back/Rear Delts: Shrugs (BB, Reverse BB, Squat Shrugs); Seated DB Power Cleans; Reverse Flyes
    4b: Elbow Flexion - Hammer Curls, BB Curls, Preacher Curls etc.

Assitance on Squat/DL days:

  1. Squat or DL - 5/3/1 scheme
  2. Posterior Chain - Good Mornings, RDLs, GHR; Hip Thrusts
  3. Quads / Unilateral Leg Movement: Leg Press, Reverse BB Lunge; Bulgarian Split Squats
  4. Core (Abs/Obliques): Hanging Leg Raises; Front Squat Holds; Weighted Eagle Sit Ups; DB/BB Side Bends

Keep the assistance work high reps (10-20) with 3-5 sets. Switch assistance exercises every 2-3 weeks.

Or just read the book and switch back and forth between triumvirate and boring but big. But again, higher reps with shorter rest times (45-60 seconds, 90 seconds tops) if your goal is to cut while still building, or at least maintaining, your strength.

And if cutting is your goal, I’d definitely follow his pre and post workout suggestions. Do some foam rolling and mobility work before you workout, followed by jumping rope or something to get you loose and get your heart rate up.

Then on days you feel up to it, finish the workout with some sprints, run a timed mile, bike a few miles or swim a bunch of laps at an intense pace, something like that. Some type of intense cardio for 10 minutes or so. You can also do this on off days.

[quote]Rock978 wrote:

[quote]yanivgoft wrote:

[quote]Broski wrote:
Higher rep schemes and lower rest times. Throw in the prowler for conditioning. Otherwise, follow whatever works for you for cutting diet-wise. [/quote]
I ment specifics like X exercise on Y day for Z sets and W reps. Any suggestions? [/quote]

Honestly, just read 5-3-1, there’s plenty in there for assistance exercises. As already mentioned, if your focus is cutting you’ll want higher reps and less rest. Here’s a rough start though:

Assitance on BP/MP days:

  1. BP or MP - 5/3/1 scheme
  2. Tris and/or Chest: DB Presses (flat bench, incline, decline); CG bench; Illegal Wides; Incline BP; Dips; JM Press
  3. Lats: DB Rows; BB Rows/Kroc Rows; Chest Supported Rows
    4a: Upper Back/Rear Delts: Shrugs (BB, Reverse BB, Squat Shrugs); Seated DB Power Cleans; Reverse Flyes
    4b: Elbow Flexion - Hammer Curls, BB Curls, Preacher Curls etc.

Assitance on Squat/DL days:

  1. Squat or DL - 5/3/1 scheme
  2. Posterior Chain - Good Mornings, RDLs, GHR; Hip Thrusts
  3. Quads / Unilateral Leg Movement: Leg Press, Reverse BB Lunge; Bulgarian Split Squats
  4. Core (Abs/Obliques): Hanging Leg Raises; Front Squat Holds; Weighted Eagle Sit Ups; DB/BB Side Bends

Keep the assistance work high reps (10-20) with 3-5 sets. Switch assistance exercises every 2-3 weeks.

Or just read the book and switch back and forth between triumvirate and boring but big. But again, higher reps with shorter rest times (45-60 seconds, 90 seconds tops) if your goal is to cut while still building, or at least maintaining, your strength.[/quote]
Thank you sir! I read most of the book, he just showed what types are there I just wanted to ask if there is anything suggested as the assistance :slight_smile: So thank you I guess this is what I’ll do!

[quote]Rock978 wrote:

[quote]yanivgoft wrote:

[quote]Broski wrote:
Higher rep schemes and lower rest times. Throw in the prowler for conditioning. Otherwise, follow whatever works for you for cutting diet-wise. [/quote]
I ment specifics like X exercise on Y day for Z sets and W reps. Any suggestions? [/quote]

Honestly, just read 5-3-1, there’s plenty in there for assistance exercises. As already mentioned, if your focus is cutting you’ll want higher reps and less rest. Here’s a rough start though:

Assitance on BP/MP days:

  1. BP or MP - 5/3/1 scheme
  2. Tris and/or Chest: DB Presses (flat bench, incline, decline); CG bench; Illegal Wides; Incline BP; Dips; JM Press
  3. Lats: DB Rows; BB Rows/Kroc Rows; Chest Supported Rows
    4a: Upper Back/Rear Delts: Shrugs (BB, Reverse BB, Squat Shrugs); Seated DB Power Cleans; Reverse Flyes
    4b: Elbow Flexion - Hammer Curls, BB Curls, Preacher Curls etc.

Assitance on Squat/DL days:

  1. Squat or DL - 5/3/1 scheme
  2. Posterior Chain - Good Mornings, RDLs, GHR; Hip Thrusts
  3. Quads / Unilateral Leg Movement: Leg Press, Reverse BB Lunge; Bulgarian Split Squats
  4. Core (Abs/Obliques): Hanging Leg Raises; Front Squat Holds; Weighted Eagle Sit Ups; DB/BB Side Bends

Keep the assistance work high reps (10-20) with 3-5 sets. Switch assistance exercises every 2-3 weeks.

Or just read the book and switch back and forth between triumvirate and boring but big. But again, higher reps with shorter rest times (45-60 seconds, 90 seconds tops) if your goal is to cut while still building, or at least maintaining, your strength.[/quote]
Oh and I wanted to ask, what about Power Cleans? Can I do them as assistance? I just recently started cleaning and I really wanna get better at it and still do it

For sure. I never incorporated them into 5-3-1 programming, but have seen others post on here about doing so and having some success, and believe one of Wendler’s Q&As says you can do the same.

Makes sense to work them in on one of your Squat/DL days. Maybe on squat days since you don’t do quite as much pulling then – probably by replacing the quad movement (#3) with power cleans. I think others have mentioned that they’ll do power cleans before their squat/DL, but I’ve never been big on anything that might keep me from being 100% for the day’s main lift.

[quote]Rock978 wrote:
For sure. I never incorporated them into 5-3-1 programming, but have seen others post on here about doing so and having some success, and believe one of Wendler’s Q&As says you can do the same.

Makes sense to work them in on one of your Squat/DL days. Maybe on squat days since you don’t do quite as much pulling then – probably by replacing the quad movement (#3) with power cleans. I think others have mentioned that they’ll do power cleans before their squat/DL, but I’ve never been big on anything that might keep me from being 100% for the day’s main lift.[/quote]
Yeah, after this post I went on and finished reading the book, Jim says to do power cleans with the 5/3/1 method and do them before SQ/DL and he has a big emphasize on that, any idea why? I just started cleaning and I wanna get better but keeping my SQ and DL strong is more important to me…

[quote]yanivgoft wrote:

[quote]Rock978 wrote:
For sure. I never incorporated them into 5-3-1 programming, but have seen others post on here about doing so and having some success, and believe one of Wendler’s Q&As says you can do the same.

Makes sense to work them in on one of your Squat/DL days. Maybe on squat days since you don’t do quite as much pulling then – probably by replacing the quad movement (#3) with power cleans. I think others have mentioned that they’ll do power cleans before their squat/DL, but I’ve never been big on anything that might keep me from being 100% for the day’s main lift.[/quote]
Yeah, after this post I went on and finished reading the book, Jim says to do power cleans with the 5/3/1 method and do them before SQ/DL and he has a big emphasize on that, any idea why? I just started cleaning and I wanna get better but keeping my SQ and DL strong is more important to me…[/quote]

My understanding is that he doesn’t really expect someone to go all out on the cleans. It’s more of an exercise for power. If you don’t try to go real heavy, it can serve as a warm-up. If you try to do cleans after squats or deadlifts, your muscles will be fatigued and it’s much harder to get the pop you need for power cleans.

[quote]yanivgoft wrote:
Hey I’m starting cutting these days and I’m pretty sure 5/3/1 is the way to go for me. Do you guys have any recommended variations for the assistance work? [/quote]

My 2 cents.

If you feel you need to lose fat don’t rely on a workout to do it. What you ate is most responsible for your current state so address that first. Any 5/3/1 template will help you retain the muscle you currently have. Spend your time cleaning up your diet and slowly dialing up conditioning.

“very few people can out train a poor diet” - Wendler

[quote]HARA wrote:

[quote]yanivgoft wrote:
Hey I’m starting cutting these days and I’m pretty sure 5/3/1 is the way to go for me. Do you guys have any recommended variations for the assistance work? [/quote]

My 2 cents.

If you feel you need to lose fat don’t rely on a workout to do it. What you ate is most responsible for your current state so address that first. Any 5/3/1 template will help you retain the muscle you currently have. Spend your time cleaning up your diet and slowly dialing up conditioning.

“very few people can out train a poor diet” - Wendler[/quote]
My diet is good, believe me, I’m literally weighing everything I put in my mouth so I can be accurate. I wasn’t asking about that, I was asking about the variations.

[quote]yanivgoft wrote:

[quote]HARA wrote:

[quote]yanivgoft wrote:
Hey I’m starting cutting these days and I’m pretty sure 5/3/1 is the way to go for me. Do you guys have any recommended variations for the assistance work? [/quote]

My 2 cents.

If you feel you need to lose fat don’t rely on a workout to do it. What you ate is most responsible for your current state so address that first. Any 5/3/1 template will help you retain the muscle you currently have. Spend your time cleaning up your diet and slowly dialing up conditioning.

“very few people can out train a poor diet” - Wendler[/quote]
My diet is good, believe me, I’m literally weighing everything I put in my mouth so I can be accurate. I wasn’t asking about that, I was asking about the variations.[/quote]

Ok, when you started your comment with “I’m starting cutting” I figured you were looking to lose weight through training. Wendler has a high volume template he posted on his website a while ago. check it out.

Been doing a modified 531 due to injury issues (shoulder). I’ve replaced the BP and MP with front squats and weighted chin ups. Also been doing a 15 minute EDT circuit after the main lifts. Also commute to work by bicycle.

Couple this with 2 24 hour fasts a week and a relatively clean diet.

I have shifted 5kg in the last 5 weeks. Abs starting to rear their ugly head as well. Most importantly IMO, is no strength loss. Still making gains in that respect.

Good luck OP

[quote]Silyak wrote:

[quote]yanivgoft wrote:

[quote]Rock978 wrote:
For sure. I never incorporated them into 5-3-1 programming, but have seen others post on here about doing so and having some success, and believe one of Wendler’s Q&As says you can do the same.

Makes sense to work them in on one of your Squat/DL days. Maybe on squat days since you don’t do quite as much pulling then – probably by replacing the quad movement (#3) with power cleans. I think others have mentioned that they’ll do power cleans before their squat/DL, but I’ve never been big on anything that might keep me from being 100% for the day’s main lift.[/quote]
Yeah, after this post I went on and finished reading the book, Jim says to do power cleans with the 5/3/1 method and do them before SQ/DL and he has a big emphasize on that, any idea why? I just started cleaning and I wanna get better but keeping my SQ and DL strong is more important to me…[/quote]

My understanding is that he doesn’t really expect someone to go all out on the cleans. It’s more of an exercise for power. If you don’t try to go real heavy, it can serve as a warm-up. If you try to do cleans after squats or deadlifts, your muscles will be fatigued and it’s much harder to get the pop you need for power cleans.
[/quote]

Pretty much this. I weouldn’t be going all out on the power cleans if you do them first.

Power cleans are an explosive movement, so I assume he recommends doing them first as they would have a similar effect as to doing a plyometric movement (like band assisted push ups before BP or box jumps before squatting/DLing) in that it may excite your nervous system and have a beneficial carry over to your DL/Squat.

And while diet is important, changing the way you train can definitely help in cutting some fat. The increased reps, shorter rest times, and finishing with some intense cardio (or maybe a barbell complex) should boost that metabolism and burn more calories after your workout. DeFranco’s Built Like a Badass Program incorporates a lot of this, and I’ve heard others say it was great for still making strength gains while cutting some fat.

[quote]Rock978 wrote:
And while diet is important, changing the way you train can definitely help in cutting some fat. The increased reps, shorter rest times, and finishing with some intense cardio (or maybe a barbell complex) should boost that metabolism and burn more calories after your workout. DeFranco’s Built Like a Badass Program incorporates a lot of this, and I’ve heard others say it was great for still making strength gains while cutting some fat.[/quote]
Hey about cardio, I remember a while back reading Matin Rooney’s Train Like a Man, and he mentioned the Terrible 275s. Would I be able to put them in this routine in some way?

I have a relevant diet plan I just worked out for myself. I’m losing weight while doing 5/3/1 (too fat and weak to really call it cutting), but still want energy/recovery during the more intense phases.

Basically, I’ve grouped the weeks of a cycle according to intensity. In order from least to most intense, they go 4, 1, 2, 3.

Therefore, I maintain a certain caloric intake for each week which averages out to a 500 kcal deficit a day over the whole cycle.

Week 4 I eat at a 1,000 kcal deficit (minus 2 pounds that week)

Week 1 I eat at a 750 kcal deficit (minus 1.5 pounds that week)

Week 2 I eat at a 250 kcal deficit (minus .5 pounds that week)

Week 3 I eat at a maintenance calorie level (stay the same weight that week)

That adds up to 4 pounds lost a cycle, which is the same as just eating at a 500 kcal deficit, but allows for greater recovery during the more intense weeks.

Just starting this my upcoming cycle, so I’ll let you know how it goes!

How long have you been cutting for? I think you might be better off just having a constant daily caloric deficit first before jumping into cycling.