5/3/1 for MMA and Boxing

[quote]Robert A wrote:
Multiple dislocations, if they were the typical anterior dislocations I would be very careful about dips, flat benching of any kind, really any exercise that subjects your shoulder to alot of extension. To be fair, partial ROM like board presses or rack pressouts may not aggravate it. If you don’t mind me asking what did you do for PT and for how long?[/quote]

I believe the term for what happened is subluxation. Each time it popped back in on its own, and kind slipped down as opposed to backwards.

Dips don’t bother it at all, never have. But flat benching certainly can, and I now only use dumbells, as they don’t bother it nearly as much.

I went to physical therapy for a good long time, probably about three or four months. They had me doing all sorts of shit- straight arm pulldowns with very light weight for reps, rowing motions with bands, some machine that Drago used in Rocky IV that keeps your arms going in circles facing away, and then towards you, and then a series of different exercises using resistance from therapists that are designed to strengthn the rotator cuff muscles.

It did feel much better after all of that, but I dislocated it later on in a BJJ class, and once again doing something else.

A couple months ago I threw a wide left hook at the heavy bag and felt it slip, but that was the first time it had happened in a long while.

The stability in the thing is fucked. I’m very careful with it, and I know that surgery is probably the only solution. But even with that, there’s no guarantee that it works, and the road back from shoulder surgery is really fucking long. Not to mention I’ve never been put under before, so I’m very scared of having a bad reaction to anasthesia and dying.

I’ve been doing weighted pushups to delay the shoulder replacement as long as possible. I wish I never seen a bench press before b/c the pushups provide all the bennifits w/o any of the lifetime of regrets.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]HallikFrank wrote:
Have you looked into rehabbing the shoulder? Also, a lot of people find benching with a close grip easier on the shoulders. Make sure to balance your pressing with lots of pulling and upper back work- that is vital to shoulder health. If I remember correcty, Jim suggests a 2:1 ratio of pulling to pressing. Do pull-ups in between your other sets. For instance, do 5 pull-ups after every set you do - thats a good way to increase pulling volume, and its easy to recover from.
[/quote]

I do a large amount of upper back work. They’re some of my better lifts… can do pullups for reps with a 45 on me, and I’m very consistent with that because of the reasons you’ve cited.

I was considering doing close grip bench as an alternative. I believe Jim Wendler said this in his book, and I was thinking of giving it a shot. I haven’t done close grip in a long ass time so I’m not sure how it affects my shoulder really.

In that case I would give close-grip bench a shot. My right shoulder got a little fucked up from wide grip benching, but after I changed my grip to a narrower one it has literally never bothered me again. Actually, I feel stronger and more stable with the closer grip, despite the fact that I got some really long arms. If CGBP still bothers your shoulders, go with weighted dips (as long as its pain-free).

Hope it works out for you, man.

http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma.cfm?go=forum_framed.posts&forum=24&thread=1732354&page=1&pc=44

[quote]So, obviously, it’s pretty solid. I use a slightly diff rep system now so I can lift a little heavier since it’s only 2x a week but I’ve been using something similar. I still every now and then do some heavy lifting or crazy volume shit just to keep myself sane. Like last week I did 10x10 preacher curls and skull crushers. I don’t think I’ve done that since high school, but training lifting heavy just twice a week gives me a ton of flexibility as far as auto-regulation.

For myself I don’t do any planned accessory work (now) because I’m doing a stupid amount of volume on a bunch of other body-weight exercises, running, and swimming in addition to muay thai and mma.

-Friday-
Warm-Up: prehab, activation, mobility, foam roller
Clean Variation
Squat (531 + WidowMaker) + Neck Harness
Bench (531) + 1 Arm Rows

-Sunday-
Warm-Up: prehab, activation, mobility, foam roller
Snatch Variation
Deadlift (531) + Neck Harness
Overhead Press (531) + Rows

A few training cycles from now I’ll do a more aggressive lifting plan but for now this is actually helping quite a bit and I don’t see a plateau coming any time soon so I’ll probably stick with this for quite some time till I feel iffy. [/quote]

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Robert A wrote:
Multiple dislocations, if they were the typical anterior dislocations I would be very careful about dips, flat benching of any kind, really any exercise that subjects your shoulder to alot of extension. To be fair, partial ROM like board presses or rack pressouts may not aggravate it. If you don’t mind me asking what did you do for PT and for how long?[/quote]

I believe the term for what happened is subluxation. Each time it popped back in on its own, and kind slipped down as opposed to backwards.

Dips don’t bother it at all, never have. But flat benching certainly can, and I now only use dumbells, as they don’t bother it nearly as much.

I went to physical therapy for a good long time, probably about three or four months. They had me doing all sorts of shit- straight arm pulldowns with very light weight for reps, rowing motions with bands, some machine that Drago used in Rocky IV that keeps your arms going in circles facing away, and then towards you, and then a series of different exercises using resistance from therapists that are designed to strengthn the rotator cuff muscles.

It did feel much better after all of that, but I dislocated it later on in a BJJ class, and once again doing something else.

A couple months ago I threw a wide left hook at the heavy bag and felt it slip, but that was the first time it had happened in a long while.

The stability in the thing is fucked. I’m very careful with it, and I know that surgery is probably the only solution. But even with that, there’s no guarantee that it works, and the road back from shoulder surgery is really fucking long. Not to mention I’ve never been put under before, so I’m very scared of having a bad reaction to anasthesia and dying. [/quote]

Thanks, that is a better picture. A couple of questions with the caveat that nothing on the internet takes the place of a real exam or actual diagnosis.

1.) Did the PT say anything about your labrum or rotator cuff during the physical exam/orthopaedic exam.
2.)Where exactly does it hurt. Does it hurt during the exercise, after the exercise, or both.
3.) Can you do pushups without pain.
4.) You said overhead work does not bother your shoulder, how is your pressing strength?
5.) What is your posture like? Specifically, do you look more military or silver back gorilla like in your thoracic spine?
6.) And most importantly, wide hooks are from the Debil. I say this because for the life of me I cant throw one with any power. If anyone wants to start a thread to help me please do.

P.S. I am jealous of the Rocky IV workout. If you tell me you got to run laps around a track and punch a speed bag as you passed I am going into full on hater mode.

Xen - good post.

someone has been to PT classes…
good questions.

my junk is as jacked or more jacked then Irish-
and it never ceases to amaze me how many people
recommend that I pick up the barbell bench again

I guess it comes with the territory this is a weightlifting site :slight_smile:
sometimes its really well informed people trying to help and that’s cool
and sometimes its people who just can’t conceive
of anyone training any kind of fighting and not benching.

So pardon this rant.

after breaking my collar bone 2x dislocating the same shoulder numerous times
AC joint separation more then once, torn junk , check.

I’m 39 and had a long long decent athletic career- long for a wrestler/judo player anyway.

I need to do dislocates and band work everyday when I wake up
and sometimes at night. before training is mandatory
and I get to tell any kind of humidity change…

when your shoulder’s are done- other stuff starts to give you issues.
like your elbows
you start to get biceps tendinitis pretty quickly, and often it will manifest in both sides,
as your ‘good’ shoulder starts to take up the slack.

Its fun not to much fun being able to train lower body ‘heavy’
and yet if I can OH press 135 for 8 its 'good"
If I can bench press 225 for more then 4 that would be ‘outstanding’

its kind of easy to jettison an exercise like this.

dont get me started on things like why I feel the bench is mostly irrelevant for grapplers/fighters
that is another thread.

[quote]JRT6 wrote:
I’ve been doing weighted pushups to delay the shoulder replacement as long as possible. I wish I never seen a bench press before b/c the pushups provide all the bennifits w/o any of the lifetime of regrets.[/quote]

Exactly. I swear to god that my shoulder problems stem from high school football and benching maximal weights incorrectly- with the arms flared, and all the stress on the shoulder.

Thankfully I can still do pushups and dips. I love them.

[quote]Robert A wrote:
1.) Did the PT say anything about your labrum or rotator cuff during the physical exam/orthopaedic exam.
[/quote]

They did, but when I had gone to a surgeon he said he didn’t believe it to be a rotator cuff. Being as I was, as I said, lazy about the MRI, I never found out, but I suspect its a torn labrum.

Front and sometimes top of the shoulder. The whole shoulder girdle hurts sometimes, but the pain is mostly in the front, just below the end of the collarbone. During the exercise it’s generally OK, but afterwards, especially with bench press, the pain can last for days. Hence my dropping of it.

There’s a little bit, and the the bad side wears out quicker than the good side, but I can still do them, and in good numbers too.

Not too bad. My numbers aren’t terrific, my max is probably 140-145, but I can do it and it’s not bad for me.

haha I really have no idea. I try to keep good posture, but I think any time you box long enough you get a little bit of rounding in the shoulders and what not. My arms do turn in slightly when relaxed though.

I haven’t thrown a left hook in years. Don’t know why I did. I’m a southpaw, so I generally only need the left for straight lefts, and my right hook is good. But what a costly mistake haha.

[quote]
P.S. I am jealous of the Rocky IV workout. If you tell me you got to run laps around a track and punch a speed bag as you passed I am going into full on hater mode.[/quote]

Hahaha it was kind of cool, not gonna lie. But no laps.

To kmcnyc,

I am sorry to hear that. I would not be the one telling you to pick up a barbell and start benching. In general I think someone should be able to perform upper body pressing to at least average (for the general population) levels or they better have a real, physical reason why they cannot. Wether or not they should is another thing entirely. You have an injury history that explains why you shouldn’t, and unless you are a super-heavy, you are not “weak” at pressing. When I say weak I mean by Wallmart/Disability forms standards, not high level Judo/wrestling standards. You seem to be managing your condition well, and despite your condition are probably in better shape than most 39 year olds.

My general rule is that unless someone has an important, to them, reason for tearing down their body, e.g. competition, then it may be better to take a step back and address some things for the “long haul”, whatever that means to them (for some it is next season or the next level of competition, others getting off the toilet at 70).

If that rant was at all directed my way thank you for interjecting. Sometimes working around a problem is the best solution.

To Irish,

This is a long post:

1.)Does your shoulder “clunk” when you move it unloaded? Decent pressing strength for a non-strength athlete.

2.)When you say the pain is mostly “in front” & “just below the end of the collar bone”, are you describing the acromial-clavicular (AC) joint? I don’t know your familiarity with the relevant anatomy so please don’t take this as condescending. The AC joint refers to the articulation between your clavicle and the acromion or your scapula(shoulder blade) AC instability is often worse with benching than over head work. Dips seem to be hit and miss with people, but I think they are risky for shoulders. AC instability really is a surgical consult because the joint does not really heal well on its own. AC separation is usually graded from 1-6 indicating how bad/what structures are trashed as opposed to merely “tweaked”. Shoulder “dislocation” or “subluxation”(in the medical sense) refers to the glenohumeral joint(shoulder blade-upper arm). Instability of the glenohumeral joint can be classified a number of ways depending on context and who is talking. They can go together.

3.)The fact the pain lingers on for days seems to indicate new damage/inflammation with benching, so please don’t do any more of that shit untill you figure this out.

4.)Static posture can be a guide about muscle length and other issues, but it is a cloudy picture. Most everyone looks like they should suffer from “upper crossed syndrome”. Very few people are actually symptomatic enough for it to be a problem. If in general your upper thoracic spine is stiff, your pectorals are shortened, and your head seems to jut forward (basically, Wanderlei Silva) then you might find a foam roller to be the best $20 dollars you ever spent. On the other hand you might look like Silva and have no problems.

5.) Finally, if you know what trigger points are: The supraspinatus, infraspinatus, pectoralis major, pectoralis minor, and subscapularis can all refer pain in the pattern you describe. If you poke around in your shoulder girdle in the front/roll your back around on a tennis ball and find some spot that is intensely painful and radiates to your shoulder that may be part of the picture.

Regardless here are a couple of links to some decent self-care/pre-hab pamphlets that may prove to help/hurt/or be completely irrelevant since as always caveat emptor and this does not constitute a real examination or advice.

http://www.lasportsandspine.com/pdfs/shoulder1.pdf

Robert A- thanks keep it going!!!
the turn of this thread is going well.
Not entirely directed your way.

I took a massage degree after college but the terminology is hazy to say the least.

Irish I know you read it but
Go peep the over 35 mobility for old farts thread I am a HUGE fan of PVC and Foam

Things like thoracic mobility , and very basic drills like wall slides, and scap or pushup plus
go a long long way.

for me- I have found that simply using prelipins table works 531 isnt too far off that.

[quote]kmcnyc wrote:
Robert A- thanks keep it going!!!
the turn of this thread is going well.
Not entirely directed your way.

I took a massage degree after college but the terminology is hazy to say the least.

Irish I know you read it but
Go peep the over 35 mobility for old farts thread I am a HUGE fan of PVC and Foam

Things like thoracic mobility , and very basic drills like wall slides, and scap or pushup plus
go a long long way.

for me- I have found that simply using prelipins table works 531 isnt too far off that.[/quote]

Thank you,

Wall slides/wall angels and the pushup with a plus are fantastic. Thank you for mentioning them. I guess a couple observations for anyone who has not done them:

Wall slides/wall angels: Wall angel exercise - YouTube
Sometimes people can cheat the movement by excessive external rotation of the arms. If you are familiar with an americana, top-wrist lock, or ude garami (for this example they are similar enough in gross movement) than you are familiar with the “cheating” motion and probably with why it may not be a great long term thing. A more common cheat/compensation is excessive lumbar extension/arching because of either poor thoracic extension or limited hip extension due to short muscles. If you feel “tight” when you do a hip flexor stretch this one can sneak up on you (or at least it does for me and I know what to look for).

Pushups with the plus/scapular protraction/pushing shoulder forward:

These are fantastic. One area of concern, and the link above is kind of on the line, is that it is easy to get too much scapular elevation/shoulder shrug at the top of the movement. This usually happens when we try to exaggerate the movement (really it should be a couple of inches at most), use too much load (no one looks cool doing these so on the knees is ok), or doing too many in too fatigued a state (this is activation, Perfect practice makes permanent, not metabolic training.) Having this error can be costly because then the movement is practice contracting the scapular elevators and relaxing the scapular depressors under load. In other words; practicing the exact fuck up the exercise is supposed to un-fuck. Like I already wrote the link above may be starting down this path, but it is tough to tell with the shirt on, and demo’s are often exaggerated.

edited for grammer

To anyone,

I just glanced over kmcnyc’s mobility thread and it should probably be required reading for life in general and anyone who wants to train in specific. One problem is that it is in over 35 so a tendency is to decide “I am too young/in too good of shape/too sexy for pre-hab/too-busy to warm up”. So it might go ignored, especially in a combat sports forum. Seriously, look at it anyway. If you practice any kind of combat sport/martial art you are probably banged up enough to benefit. If you aren’t, either you aren’t training, or please start a thread and teach me. Seriously, Irish was no help on the long hook maybe someone can teach me how to never get hurt. Here is the link:

solid posts robert a

[quote]Robert A wrote:
To Irish,

This is a long post:

1.)Does your shoulder “clunk” when you move it unloaded? Decent pressing strength for a non-strength athlete.
[/quote]

Yea it clunks and clicks all over the place haha. It’s shitty pressing strength I know, but I’m working on it.

Yes, that is likely what I’m describing. That sounds similar to what the surgeon I saw said, and it’s also the whole joint that’s unstable I believe. I count myself lucky that dips don’t bother me. And I’ve done weighted dips with decent weight as well, plus about 40 lbs. and it didn’t bother me.

As for the number classification, I’m not sure bout that one.

hahaha ohh believe me I learned that quickly… when you’re not a powerlifter and you’re too old to care what you say when people say, “Oh you lift? How much you bench?” then you just flat out stop haha.

I have recently gotten into foam rolling, and I’ve checked out KMC’s thread on mobility as well. I’ve really begun to start incorporating it into my warmups before I lift or hit the bags at all, and it does seem to have made a difference.

I do the tennis ball rolling, it has helped take some of the pain away as well. But there’s not really one spot that i would say is “the spot”… its just an overall soreness in the area about two inches above where the pec inserts. I am sure what you are talking about is part of the problem haha.

Truly appreciate the links and the help, and I will most definitely be looking into those links to see if there’s anything that I can strip out and use.

best mobility stuff i’ve seen so far ( for lifting) just search for shoulder or what ever ails you

http://mobilitywod.blogspot.com/

ps
he is a crossfitter so some of the lingo is a bit obscure

Looks like I am late to the party but I use 5/3/1 and just got back into MMA/BJJ/Martial arts. I had been running the two day split for quite a while now and I love it. In the summer I was playing softball so that split worked for me well then as well.

I have been using the two lifts per day variation as Wendler recommends here: http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/default.asp?qid=118109&tid=

I do chins and dips, or mix it up with fat man rows, blast strap or TRX push ups etc. I have been back training MMA for about 8 weeks now and when I first started I reset my maxes back a few cycles. The additional training volume of sparring, rolling and striking work needed to be accounted for. Another thing that helped was going “easy” on my main lifts and not trying to set rep records every single session. In fact, some days I only hit the prescribed reps. Even taking all these precautions, the first few weeks were rough. Now my body is adjusting and I am not very sore after my sessions.

I have learned to be smarter about my programming. I learned over the summer I absolutely could not have a productive squat session the day after playing multiple games of softball and sprinting in the outfield. I’ve seen FightinIrish also remark that he does not like to train legs hard before a sparring session. I keep my conditioning to a minimum on the days before lifting or sparring.

Just be smart about how lifting fits into your overall training. I need more skill work so right now I have pulled back on my lifting a bit. As Wendler so eloquently put it, “Weight training is nothing more than GPP. GPP is not dragging a fucking sled (where non-weightlifting sport athletes are concerned). That’s the stupidest shit I have ever heard.” lol Something along those lines. I think he was just trying to convey the importance of understanding where lifting fits into an athlete’s overall scheme. Just my two cents.

I’ve been training Thai Boxing and Kali this year, and next year will be returning to BJJ after a long injury re-hab. So the 2 day split is working well for me. Although I admit to being tempted by the new Powerlifting version, I figure I’m better sticking with 5/3/1 ‘Classic’.

Dre Cappa,

Thank you for reminding me about fat man pullups/rows. I think they are the single best pre-hab/reality check I can do as far as upper body work goes.

I have a question for anyone reading: Is there a politically correct name for them? Somehow telling a fat woman with scapular retraction issues to do “fat man rows” goes over poorly.

Call them inverted or horizontal rows maybe? That sounds fancier too so she will really think you know your stuff lol (not saying you don’t).

As an aside, I would think there would be alot more activity on the combat forums. With the growing popularity of MMA I figured there would be more people on here. I see Elite is getting alot more MMA/BJJ questions these days.

[quote]Robert A wrote:
Dre Cappa,

Thank you for reminding me about fat man pullups/rows. I think they are the single best pre-hab/reality check I can do as far as upper body work goes.

I have a question for anyone reading: Is there a politically correct name for them? Somehow telling a fat woman with scapular retraction issues to do “fat man rows” goes over poorly. [/quote]