T Nation

4 Qs: Westside, Stretching, Growth Factor Training, a Shoulder Exercise


#1

Hello CT,
some questions about different topics if you donâ??t mind:

1.) Dynamic Effort at Westside Barbell:
-they use a 3 week wave (Pendulum Wave)

 After this 3 week wave, do they rotate the exercise ( example: deadlift à deficit deadlift à sumo
 Sumo deadliftà rack pull or so) or  change the resistance ( band tension , chains, chains+ bands,
 straight weights?) or is it the same exercise all the time in the year?

2.) stretching

-some hyperthropie programs like the work of John Meadows or dogg crap have as part of their
training stretching to reduce soreness or â??â??make room for new musclesâ??â?? however I canâ??t
remember to see it used in a strength program!
Do you use stretches in strength programs or whatâ??s your opinion on that?
Including them will work in a westside based training?

3.) another shoulder exercise

 I use/ rotate barbell and dumbbell overhead presses, do you have a tip for another pressing/
 shoulder exercise ?

4.)growth factor, frequency?

This type of training works because you release growth factors, however why is it not optimal to
do this type of training for a muscle group daily?

Thanks in advance CT:)

p.s in your log, in your new videos about isometrics, you arms and especially bicep looks huge, and you have improved your pecs since your last photo update thread?!
Do you want to break some program writing records? So many aweasome CT programs in so little time!:slightly_smiling:


#2

[quote]Akidara wrote:
Hello CT,
some questions about different topics if you donâ??t mind:

1.) Dynamic Effort at Westside Barbell:
-they use a 3 week wave (Pendulum Wave)

 After this 3 week wave, do they rotate the exercise ( example: deadlift �  deficit deadlift �  sumo
 Sumo deadlift�  rack pull or so) or  change the resistance ( band tension , chains, chains+ bands,
 straight weights?) or is it the same exercise all the time in the year?

2.) stretching

-some hyperthropie programs like the work of John Meadows or dogg crap have as part of their
training stretching to reduce soreness or â??â??make room for new musclesâ??â?? however I canâ??t
remember to see it used in a strength program!
Do you use stretches in strength programs or whatâ??s your opinion on that?
Including them will work in a westside based training?

3.) another shoulder exercise

 I use/ rotate barbell and dumbbell overhead presses, do you have a tip for another pressing/
 shoulder exercise ?

4.)growth factor, frequency?

This type of training works because you release growth factors, however why is it not optimal to
do this type of training for a muscle group daily?

Thanks in advance CT:)

p.s in your log, in your new videos about isometrics, you arms and especially bicep looks huge, and you have improved your pecs since your last photo update thread?!
Do you want to break some program writing records? So many aweasome CT programs in so little time!:)[/quote]

  1. I don’t like to answer questions about other people’s systems. It is not my expertise.

  2. My second book (Theory and Application of Modern Strength and Power Methods) has a whole chapter on EQI (eccentric quasi isometrics) which is basically holding an isometric contraction in a stretched position. At the moment it’s something I use a lot in my own training (push-ups with feet and hands elevated, dips, lunges) and it does have an impact on strength mostly by increasing strength in the stretched position as well as mobility and especially whole body rigidity which is so important to strength performance.

  3. I personally like the behind the neck press. It is the pressing exercise with the greatest deltoid activation and if you have normal shoulders it is perfectly safe. In fact when my shoulder was injured that’s the only press I could do without pain.

  4. What do you mean? Using growth factor training for the same muscle group everyday or doing all of your training as growth factor?


#3
  1. Behind the neck presses are awesome. I have not had shoulder issues in a year straight, and with all the overhead stuff I do, that is a nice feeling. But I attribute that some to the BTN Snatch Presses. My medial deltoids have taken on an entirely different shape, as have my post deltoids. This is a press that from my (albeit limited) experience has very few drawbacks that other presses can have (if done safely and assuming you are starting with the bar).

I love my standard military presses too, but the BTN Snatch version is best all around press for me in terms of: keeping my shoulders healthy and good mobility, overall shoulder/deltoid shape/figure (some lightings make my shoulders look like rugged shaped stones, as opposed to a pumpkin or cannonball).

I read an article a while ago, and if I remember correctly the writer of the article had suggested that BTN Snatch Presses could be an explanation for Klokov’s upper chest development.

Also during a wrestling match a few months ago I took some blunt force to my right AC joint. At first I was just icing it (had to drive 10 hours to the next venue so plenty of time to ice). Wasn’t until the adrenaline had wore off from the weekend and I had gotten back home until I could really “read” the injury or perform any evaluation.

Lucky for me it wasn’t anything serious (in my entire training career I have spent countless hours prehabing and rehabbing and mobility this and shoulder health that). The joint was bruised, trap was a little sore and my anterior deltoid didn’t take well to too much pressure.

Within a matter of about 7-8 days I was able to muscle/power snatch again, another few days I could deadlift and squat, and about 14 days post injury I was right where I left off - in fact the little break had allowed me some recovery time. But how did my shoulder feel so good so fast?

Two exercises, both done with an empty bar. First, snatch-grip front raises, from hip to overhead lockout. After 10 of those I would perform (with the same empty bar) 10 snatch presses. (3-4 sets, would sometimes even try for 20 reps per exercise)

I have done a shit load of rehab for like 10 years straight (pretty severe ADD as a young trainee) and nothing has had the positive effect on my shoulders like BTN Snatch Presses. I do them in some capacity two times per week. Once as an accessory exercise out of the rack, and another time as part of a snatch complex.


#4

1.) I can understand that, however the Westside guys are hard to contact:P. Anyways thanks for answering.
2.) okay thanks CT! Looks like I will add them too in my RE work and stretch!
3.)ahh yes good idea, I will add them and landmine presses too for my RE work.

4.) I mean, using GFT for the same muscle group every day! (Example: Shoulders on Monday, Shoulders on Tuesday, Shoulders on Wednesday…) Since the GF work uses the metabolic pump to build muscles and doesnâ??t destroy the muscles (like focusing on the eccentric or lots of mechanical tension) I didnâ??t understand why I canâ??t do it daily. I mean you simply pick a light weight and pump your muscle with as much blood as possible, why shouldnâ??t you do that daily? If you compare that to a workout where you use heavy weights and focus on the eccentric, which has as a result that you are sore for 5 days. In that case it makes sense to have a low frequency and hit the muscle only once a week.

I hope you understand what I mean CTâ?¦
Thanks in advance, and thank you for answering the other questions!


#5

[quote]Akidara wrote:
4.) I mean, using GFT for the same muscle group every day! (Example: Shoulders on Monday, Shoulders on Tuesday, Shoulders on Wednesday…) Since the GF work uses the metabolic pump to build muscles and doesnâ??t destroy the muscles (like focusing on the eccentric or lots of mechanical tension) I didnâ??t understand why I canâ??t do it daily. I mean you simply pick a light weight and pump your muscle with as much blood as possible, why shouldnâ??t you do that daily? If you compare that to a workout where you use heavy weights and focus on the eccentric, which has as a result that you are sore for 5 days. In that case it makes sense to have a low frequency and hit the muscle only once a week.

[/quote]

In theory it’s doable since growth factor training doesn’t cause muscle damage. However it still depletes muscle glycogen and could over time desensitize the muscle to stimulation.

It could be done with one or two supersets (for 3 sets) per day and I would stop using this strategy when it’s harder to get a great pump.


#6

[quote]Akidara wrote:p.s in your log, in your new videos about isometrics, you arms and especially bicep looks huge, and you have improved your pecs since your last photo update thread?!
Do you want to break some program writing records? So many aweasome CT programs in so little time!:)[/quote]

Thank you. To be honest the videos are actually not very flattering, skin is much thinner looking in person and the way I’m built (narrow clavicle) I always look smaller in a shirt than a tank top or without a shirt. But I hate training in a tank top!

Yes my chest is probably my best improvement since the last photo update, mostly because the “photo update” was done at a time where I couldn’t do any heavy pressing work and pec training was hard. Arms are improved to, mostly because I began training them hard again :slight_smile:


#7

@howie424 thanks for posting there too!

Seems like youâ??re a big fan of the BNT Snatch Press: P
Interesting thought about Klokovâ??s chest. Does he performs lots of normal push and military presses? If yes then I would say thatâ??s the reason for his upper chest development?
Nice tip with the snatch grip front raises to overhead!


#8

@CT

Thanks for answering again! I didnâ??t know about the muscle glycogen and I did not thought of the desensitize of the muscle to stimulation, interesting thought, learned something! Everything should be now clear about GFT, thanks CT! :slight_smile:

Well, you also look very athletic to me, very good balance of muscle mass and athleticism at the moment in my opinion! If you still have the round delts and traps like in your pic update thread you have a killer physique.


#9

[quote]Akidara wrote:
@howie424 thanks for posting there too!

Seems like youâ??re a big fan of the BNT Snatch Press: P
Interesting thought about Klokovâ??s chest. Does he performs lots of normal push and military presses? If yes then I would say thatâ??s the reason for his upper chest development?
Nice tip with the snatch grip front raises to overhead!
[/quote]

Yes, the Military and Push Presses contribute greatly also. The snatch presses have really made my upper chest look wider and have a better shape. Which is good for me because I do not horizontal press very frequently so my chest is relatively underdeveloped.


#10

Jason and Felix, two guys I train (who are in my squat clean drills) changed their look in only 3 weeks because I have them do A LOT of behind the neck pressing exercises.

Snatch grip behind the neck press in squat (erroneously called Sots press)
Snatch grip behind the neck press
Snatch grip push press
Muscle snatch

They do at least two of these 3 days a week. And often do complexes involving 2 or 3 of these.

While they are in a hypertrophy phase (as far a Olympic lifting goes) and gained mass all-over (they are up 6 and 8lbs respectively) the change in their upper body makes it look like and an ever bigger change.

I firmly believe that snatching performance is highly correlated with shoulder strength.


#11

If you are interested in the 11 weeks Olympic lifting training cycle you can either contact me on facebook or https://jumpshare.com/v/1VxkW5FwMFohXT0UawTo


#12

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Jason and Felix, two guys I train (who are in my squat clean drills) changed their look in only 3 weeks because I have them do A LOT of behind the neck pressing exercises.

Snatch grip behind the neck press in squat (erroneously called Sots press)
Snatch grip behind the neck press
Snatch grip push press
Muscle snatch

They do at least two of these 3 days a week. And often do complexes involving 2 or 3 of these.

While they are in a hypertrophy phase (as far a Olympic lifting goes) and gained mass all-over (they are up 6 and 8lbs respectively) the change in their upper body makes it look like and an ever bigger change.

I firmly believe that snatching performance is highly correlated with shoulder strength.[/quote]

CT, Do you have any technique tips for the snatch grip behind the neck press and behind the neck pressing in general?


#13

[quote]StateOfPsychosis wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Jason and Felix, two guys I train (who are in my squat clean drills) changed their look in only 3 weeks because I have them do A LOT of behind the neck pressing exercises.

Snatch grip behind the neck press in squat (erroneously called Sots press)
Snatch grip behind the neck press
Snatch grip push press
Muscle snatch

They do at least two of these 3 days a week. And often do complexes involving 2 or 3 of these.

While they are in a hypertrophy phase (as far a Olympic lifting goes) and gained mass all-over (they are up 6 and 8lbs respectively) the change in their upper body makes it look like and an ever bigger change.

I firmly believe that snatching performance is highly correlated with shoulder strength.[/quote]

CT, Do you have any technique tips for the snatch grip behind the neck press and behind the neck pressing in general?
[/quote]

Initiate the movement with the traps… imagine that a powerful shrug is propelling the bar upwards then the arms finish the press


#14

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
If you are interested in the 11 weeks Olympic lifting training cycle you can either contact me on facebook or https://jumpshare.com/v/1VxkW5FwMFohXT0UawTo[/quote]

Hello Mr. Thibaudeau!!!
I admire the things that you’re doing on this forum. I do not want to waste your time but I wanted to ask for help in laying the workout plan for two days in weeks witch include some snatch and clean mostly for fun and as mobility and posture imprower tool? I have access to the gym only on Monday and Thursday but at home I have a dumbbell’s and also planned to do some isometric exercises which you described in a weekend.


#15

@Akidara: Rogue Fitness sells a book by Louie Simmons now, you might find what you were looking for in regards to West Side there.


#16

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]StateOfPsychosis wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Jason and Felix, two guys I train (who are in my squat clean drills) changed their look in only 3 weeks because I have them do A LOT of behind the neck pressing exercises.

Snatch grip behind the neck press in squat (erroneously called Sots press)
Snatch grip behind the neck press
Snatch grip push press
Muscle snatch

They do at least two of these 3 days a week. And often do complexes involving 2 or 3 of these.

While they are in a hypertrophy phase (as far a Olympic lifting goes) and gained mass all-over (they are up 6 and 8lbs respectively) the change in their upper body makes it look like and an ever bigger change.

I firmly believe that snatching performance is highly correlated with shoulder strength.[/quote]

CT, Do you have any technique tips for the snatch grip behind the neck press and behind the neck pressing in general?
[/quote]

Initiate the movement with the traps… imagine that a powerful shrug is propelling the bar upwards then the arms finish the press[/quote]

Awesome.

Thanks for your time.


#17

[quote]sput79 wrote:
@Akidara: Rogue Fitness sells a book by Louie Simmons now, you might find what you were looking for in regards to West Side there.[/quote]

Which book do you mean?


#18

Good morning coach: Can this 15 week be practiced by a beginner?, is it one session per day? Can I see more info, videos, tips in you Facebook Christian Thibaudeau?


#19

[quote]Rickectonomore wrote:
Good morning coach: Can this 15 week be practiced by a beginner?, is it one session per day? Can I see more info, videos, tips in you Facebook Christian Thibaudeau?[/quote]

It’s 10 weeks not 15. It was written for 3 athletes I train and since I coach them daily they don’t need videos. I just thought I’d share it with those interested since I’m seeing great results. But I do not want to spend more time on it.


#20

[quote]Rickectonomore wrote:
Good morning coach: Can this 15 week be practiced by a beginner?, is it one session per day? Can I see more info, videos, tips in you Facebook Christian Thibaudeau?[/quote]

It can only be practiced by a “beginner” if he is technically efficient at the full Olympic lifts