4 Months after Starting Androgel

Pharma / TRT Testosterone Replacement
1

Hi I started androgel a while back and i have just got my latest bloods done.

The latest bloods show the situation after being on the recommended daily replacement of 2 pumps = 40mg testosterone. The July bloods show what life was like on half this dosage.

Basically on more testosterone i now make LESS testosterone and more oestrogen.

I did however feel much better on 2 pumps of the gel, but recently i have started to feel a bit more tired on this dose.

Anyway after these bloods i emailed the doc and he said to try 3 pumps of the gel (60mg)

So i have been doing this now for a week. I will get new bloods done in about a months time.

My concern is that i don’t really feel that much better on the 3 pumps. I feel ok, but overall on TRT i have generally not experienced any really great feeling like i have done over the years on thyroid meds (i also take T4 every day and have done so for 10 years).

I have been reading on here about HCG and was wondering if this could be a better way of naturally increasing my testosterone production. Before i tried TRT i tried Clomid on a low dose and this sent testosterone to the top of the range, but it also sent oestrogen sky rocketing and i could tell the clomid didnt make me feel good.

Before i started TRT my issue was a tired body. My muscles were weaker and i had lots of aches and pains. I don’t work out in a gym, but work in construction and play sports quite a lot (football, squash, swim, cycle). My bloods this january show mid level testosterone, but high SHBG and so my issue was this really. So me and the doc agreed it would be worth trying the TRT.

I have not really seen much change in my sex drive on the TRT. It was ok before TRT so not my main issue. In fact i have a feeling my drive is now a bit less on TRT and my penis doesn’t seem as hard when aroused.

It would be interesting getting some info on what people think. HCG sounds like it might be of more use for me, especially as i read on here it helps the adrenals out.

September bloods (2 pumps 40mg)

FSH 3.72 IU/L (Range: 1.5 - 12.4)

LH 2.03 IU/L (Range: 1.7 - 8.6)

Oestradiol 67.2 pmol/L (Range: 41 - 159)

Testosterone 11.1 nmol/L (Range: 8.64 - 29)

Free Testosterone - Calc. X 0.185 nmol/L (Range: 0.2 - 0.62)

Prolactin 225 mU/L (Range: 86 - 324)

SHBG 44.3 nmol/L (Range: 18.3 - 54.1

July bloods (1 pump gel 20mg)

FSH 8.9 IU/L (Range: 1.5 - 12.4)

LH 6.09 IU/L (Range: 1.7 - 8.6)

Oestradiol 59.6 pmol/L (Range: 41 - 159)

Testosterone 16.6 nmol/L (Range: 8.64 - 29)

Free Testosterone - Calc. 0.251 nmol/L (Range: 0.2 - 0.62)

Prolactin 257 mU/L (Range: 86 - 324)

SHBG 54.1 nmol/L (Range: 18.3 - 54.1

2

You are one of many men who just don’t do well on T-gel, most men start to absorb more poorly as time moves forward. HCG will not lower your high SHBG, TRT is the only course of action. Your labs are no good even with LH at 6, HCG won’t do any better.

Here at this point in time it looks like you were on your way to seeing LH suppressed, but didn’t quite make it there.

The T-Gel didn’t work well at all, look at your LH value, it should be suppressed (.2) and it is not. The bigger androgel dose pushed LH lower, but didn’t completely suppress you which is why your levels are lower.

I’m afraid you have been on natural testosterone and maybe a little exogenous testosterone the entire time you’ve been using the T-gel.

You haven’t really been getting much of any exogenous testosterone into your system at this point in time. You have experienced a placebo effect and you convinced yourself you felt better and maybe you did but it wasn’t because of TRT.

3

OK I can see the switch over from zero T to a replacement dose has basically shut my own production down and not given any extra.

Would you not see how more gel works out first eg 3 shots.

4

You can take a bath in androgel and wouldn’t see much of a increase, men start absorbing worse as time goes on. I had to use androgel and axiron together just to shut me down leaving me with lower levels than pre-TRT which was 120 ng/dL.

You can keep piling on more androgel and maybe see an increase for a little while, but I know how it ends.

Androgel Gel is too little test percentage to see optimal levels, a very small percentage will see optimal T levels on Androgel and that isn’t going to be you.

Injections is 100% absorbed and will provide the best results.

5

Agree with Systemlord, I did lots of research before I started my journey on TRT. I heard some real horror stories about T gel’s. Some guys did well with them but many others did not do well at all. Seems as though the absorption just isn’t good with some men. As he said, go to injections dude. I do injections and I am so glad I chose to go this route. They are very cheap and they work very well. I would forget about the Gel’s brother.

6

I got into the mid 700s on 3 pumps axiron daily.

7

Where are you located?

8

I am in the UK.

I am going to try less testosterone from today and see how i get on. So just one pump (20mg).

My worry is that i am pushing up oestrogen with the testosterone more than the testosterone is going up. The clomid experiment shows this is how my body reacts.

I enclose bloods in January of this year showing where i was before i started this journey. All i took was my regular 125mcg T4.

I will also show you my results from clomid usage.

Jan 2019 before trying any testosterone replacement.

Albumin 43.9 g/L (Range: 35 - 50)

SHBG X 54.3 nmol/L (Range: 18.3 - 54.1)

Hormones

FSH 11.8 IU/L ( Men 1.5 - 12.4 )

LH 7.01 IU/L ( Men 1.7 - 8.6 )

Oestradiol 93.4 pmol/L (Range: 41 - 159)

Testosterone 18.4 nmol/L (Range: 8.64 - 29)

Free Testosterone - Calc. 0.278 nmol/L (Range: 0.2 - 0.62)

Free Androgen Index 33.89 Ratio (Range: 24 - 104)

Prolactin 263 mU/L (Range: 86 - 324)

Adrenal Hormones

DHEA Sulphate 6.570 umol/L (Range: 1.2 - 8.98)

May 2019 bloods taking 1/2 tablet clomid for 4 weeks before bloods

FSH X 23.3 IU/L (Range: 1.5 - 12.4)

LH X 17.6 IU/L (Range: 1.7 - 8.6)

Oestradiol X 241 pmol/L (Range: 41 - 159)

Testosterone X 31.2 nmol/L (Range: 8.64 - 29)

Free Testosterone - Calc. 0.497 nmol/L (Range: 0.2 - 0.62)

Prolactin 201 mU/L (Range: 86 - 324)

Prostate

PSA - Total 0.757 ug/L (Range: < 2)

Between jan 2018 and jan 2019 my overall androgens increased. My testosterone went up from 15.6, but so did SHBG, from 47.5.

So between this time period something happened with my androgens and it was in this period i started to feel weaker and have more aches and pains. Hence why after the january 2019 bloods i realised i now had a possible testosterone issue. So all this happened really starting last November aged 47. I will be 48 this november.

For me last November was a specific life changing time for my body clock. I see it as the first sign of proper aging.

I have had this thyroid problem for years so i know the two probably go together but i have tried more thyroid meds and it doesn’t alter the tiredness and pains so i can rule out thyroid. In fact going to 150 T4 makes me no as well. 125 T4 is my maximum limit it seems.

My Ft4 is 20 (10-24)
Ft3 is 4.6 (3.1-6.8)

The only other thing i have noticed is Ft3 has dropped as it used to always be in the 5’s. I wonder if this could be related to my issues. I do have T3 but i find it does relatively little for me. It used to help, but no more it seems. The T4 is more effective.

Sorry for so much info, but i thought i would give a full picture.

9

Half the clomid pill is estrogen, remember this is a fertility drug for females, this may not represent to how you will respond to TRT when on the appropriate protocol. Gels have been known to increase estrogen in some individuals more than injections, but with injections you can minimize the estrogen conversion by injecting smaller doses very frequently.

10

Ok thanks for the info. Makes me feel a bit better.

11

I need to speak to the doc about my next step.

Do you think I should go to injections or should I give hcg a go first.

Hcg seems like a better idea because I know I have low sperm counts. About 20m and the motility is average. We have a daughter and I ha be some sort sperm frozen so fertility isn’t that to important but I just wonder if hcg would be more effective for me.

I had an undescended testicle at birth and an operation aged 9 to sort it.

12

HCG will do nothing for you, look at your high LH and your T status, FT is suboptimal and so I expect HCG to show poor results because your testicles are underperforming. HCG will also create estrogen within the testicles and estrogen through the aromatase enzymes process, therefore estrogen may very well be higher on HCG v.s TRT.

When you are looking to have kids you can add HCG and FSH injections to your TRT protocol, you would then decrease your TRT dosage, add HCG and FSH.

13

If you do a search on this forum for androgel and read the posts, you wouldn’t have to ask the question. Or search youtube videos on androgel. Or the net reviews. It is weak crap and has been stated many times in just the last 3 months in these forums.

14

Keep in mind that the there are testosterone creams (NOT GEL) that are actually very strong… so that is an alternative option to injections. The issue is it has to be made at a compounding pharmacy and some of them seem to do a poor job. Empower seems to be doing a good job with theirs (that is what I am on).

Just throwing that option out there so you are made aware of it

15

Ok thanks for the info on HCG.

The doc i saw seemed to think androgel was great and dead easy to use. Who am i to argue as for me rubbing gel into the shoulder is easier than doing injections.

So even though the gel has a bad rep i am glad i have tried to to see if it works ok or not. Imagine if it had worked.

Right i need to email my doc and see what he says.

16

Ok thanks for the info.

I am in the UK, so not sure what is on the market over here.

17

Ah ok, it may not be an option over there then, I am not sure

18

It’s because the big pharma reps visit these doctors and tell them they should prescribe Androgel blowing smoke up their a$$ telling them how great a product Androgel is when in reality it’s on average the least effective, but hay androgen is patented and T-cypionate is not.

Your doctor is just naive and has been duped without doing any research of his own.

1 Like
19

If only they had patented a 20% cream instead. While it would certainly make it way more expensive, at least doctors would know about it and be able to prescribe it more easily

20

My doc is about 60 and is on it himself. He says he only takes one squirt, so 50% of the daily amount recommended. Plus he goes all over europe to conferences and was talking how bad the National Health service is in the UK for treating testosterone issue.

Apparently the best nation up on treatment (in europe i imagine) are the Italians. Their docs are really into it and go to all the conferences.

So really he should know about the issues with androgel. PLUS he makes no money from supplying it. He allows his patients to purchase it themselves so they can get the cheapest supplier. He just provides the prescriptions and i pay a yearly fee for this of ÂŁ200.

Are you saying T-cypionate is the better product to use because no one is making any money from it ?