T Nation

4-AD/T levels/blood tests

Bill if I remember correctly you say that 4-AD even at high amounts doesn’t cause supraphysiological increases in free T. This has been my feeling as well. I was just wondering if you’ve seen and/or done any blood tests to confirm this? I’m also wondering how much of an increase in Testosterone does it typically take before one starts to see water retention due to aromitization to estrogen? Thanks in advance

bump

I’ll bump this up where hopefully Bill will see it but I believe I recall Bill saying that 4AD will actually cause a small amount of T inhibition and that the conversion of 4AD to T is at the rate to just make up for the amount lost due to inhibition so that you will end up will no net gain in T…the conversion of 4AD just balances out the inhibition. And Bill used that point to portray the fact the the anabolic nature of 4AD is not from conversion to T, but that 4AD is anabolic in and of it’s self.

From the blood profiles I had done, Mag-10 raised free T a little, and 4AD raised free T a little more from baseline. Mag-10 supressed total T considerably while 4AD only a little.

Yes, that’s correct. By the way, the decrease in total T, while perhaps sounding alarming, when free T remains the same, means only that SHBG has decreased. This is expected with androgen use.

Free T is the measure of what the testosterone activity is, whereas the amount bound to SHBG is only the product, so to speak, of free T and amount of SHBG and means nothing beyond that.

Estrogen levels don’t increase on MAG-10. Any water retention is not from estrogenic water retention, but androgenic water retention – which principally is I think from glycogen associated water in muscles. This can include facial muscles. There can also be an increase in blood volume with androgen use. Generally it’s not subcutaneous water, but for some people there can be though nowhere near as bad as with estrogenic water retention.

My blood results concur with Mr. Roberts statement that estrogen is unaffected by Mag-10. The same was true with the 4-AD. Interestingly though, estrogen actually increased with clomid.

I was wondering if taking Tribex with your 4AD would bolster T levels (or at least prevent inhibition). In which case, would there be a synergistic effect, similar to MAG- 10, but with T instead of 1AD? Would this theoretically be stronger than MAG?

Interesting info. there and thanks for supplying it. If I may ask what were the specifics of your blood tests…I assume you got before tests done to establish baseline levels. How long were you taking the products and at what dosages etc?

I did 4 weeks of two servings a day(both for mag-10 and 4AD). I used Mag-10 first followed by 3 weeks clomid and then 2 weeks of nothing before I began the 4AD. Blood work was conducted prior to the “cycles” as well as every four weeks throughout. The profiles were pretty much complete so lipids, hormones and, liver measures. I should add however that I was also on low dose accutane while on the Mag-10 so my lipids were all out wack. However liver measures were unaffected and hormones were as mentioned. I’m sorry but I don’t have the exact numbers at my disposal right now. As far as body comp goes I gained around 12lbs lbm on Mag-10 while losing about 3 lbs of fbm (at about 5200 kcals/day). I was dieting during the 4AD and didn’t get all that much body comp done however I gained maybe a pound lbm while shedding about 9 pounds of fat (I’m down to about 6% bf by hydrostatic weighing now).

Bill Roberts comments got me to thinking. If T levels don’t really change and if you were using androsol in a morning only dose then, would it be possible to pass a drug test in just over 24hrs. Since T:E ratio should be same and 4AD level should be back to normal the next day. If there is a gapping hole in this reasoning please rip into my argument.
Yo.

With Androsol, perhaps. With 4-AD-EC, I’d give it longer due to the longer duration of action.

But it seems to me it would be pushing it unnecessarily to take Androsol right up to 24 hours of being tested. If not actually in the system (which would give an advantage) it should make no difference in performance whether it’s been 24 hours or several days since use, so if there’s any risk at all in pushing it that close, it would make more sense to allow a few days just to be absolutely sure.

Bill I agree with you entirely. The thing is that I’m subject to out of competition testing and so they just call you and say you have to come in for a piss test. Usually though you can hold them off until the next day if you have to. So as a randomly tested athlete my only real options are low does test proprionate, low dose 4-AD and a handfull of other options. Thank you for your response though I appreciate it. I was also curious if you knew whether or not concurrent use of tribex on the cycle I discribed above would affect my T:E ratio. If you don’t know thanks anyway.

yo

How about Mag-10? I was going to go off a week before urinalysis testing for an upcoming show.

Mag10 - Is this a good product to use post AAS cycle during recovery? My desire is to use Mag10 along with Clomid and Tribex500 to preserve gains while not hindering the recovery process as I really like getting the ol’ boys back up and running asap. What effect does Mag10 have on HPTA?

Thanks

Given the blood profiles I’ve had done (see above), I’d strongly suggest 4AD instead of Mag-10 as Mag-10 was very supressive (at least relatively).
-Endocrine

This thread would seem to be suggesting that MAG-10 is effective to further lower T levels in men who just barely qualify for HRT. Would that still be true even with unchanged free T? Perhaps it depends on the doctor. What say you, Bill? I’ve never seen MAG-10 recommended to the end, or with this bonus benefit.

I don’t know if Tribex affects testosterone to epitestosterone ratio, but I wouldn’t expect it would.

There are doctors who make a judgment on whether an individual has testosterone deficiency based on total testosterone rather than free, although this is a poor method.
If this is the method used then the drop
in apparent testosterone levels (actually, drop in SHBG with free testosterone remaining the same) could probably in many cases be sufficient to be thought an indication for testosterone replacement therapy. A doctor
more on the ball, though, would note that free
testosterone was good and from that should conclude that there was no need for hormone replacement therapy.