T Nation


I am a broke college student and love being on more than off so I decided to get some 4-ad-ec until I go back home and get some M-10. My questions are how long will one bottle last? How do I take it? And I am already quite muscular at around 240lbs. so should I up the dosage a little like some of the bigger guys did with Androsol and M-10(2 doses a day)? I really would appreciate some feedback, thanks a lot!!

I forgot to ask if I should take M/Vitex while on the 4ADEC or should I use it strictly post cycle? Damn Im slow!!! Also I want to take this for an 8 week period. In that case should I still bump up the daily dosage or not? I really do appreciate this men!

I really don;t think it would be problem uping the dose to 2 a day. It says on the bottle no more than 2 a day, and I don;t think Biotest is the kind of company that would put something on like that unless it was damn sure.
As a side note, I have been using this stuff at one dose a day, on the fat fast and have seen some really good results. I am actually gaining muscle and strength while on a 1400 Kcal a day diet!
For me it is pretty powerfull stuff, but I would assume like anything else that it would be highly individual. I would try one dose a day for a week then progress to 2 doses a day for a week and assess the differences.
A bottle will last you 14 days on one day and 7 on 2 a day. Pretty expensive at 2 a day just like methoxy.
It is up to you but I know I couldn;t afford that(college student)
:slight_smile: Groove

was thinking about using 4-AD while on my current cutting (1,900 cals) was wonder when you take the one dose, your current stats, and traing methods. Thanks dude

No problem happy to reply.
I take my dose in my powerdrive drink about 1/2 an hour before training. I am not sure if this is the best way to take it but it just maskes the awfull taste. I really don;t think it matters when you take it because it is supposed to work for 24 hours, so as long as you take it roughly the same time every day things should be fine.
I am currently doing the 1-6 program designed by poliquin, I am going to complete my 2nd week on tuesday. Prior to this I did 5X5 training 4 times a week for three weeks, and I tried meltdown before this and it just burnt me out. The general consensus on this board is that 5X5 training is best for cutting or another type of low rep high set protocol, and I agree.
I am 5 9.5 at 184 pounds currently, and I am estimating my BF % at around 13.5 to 15 %,(I am getting it tested at the end of my Fat fat/probably in a week or so) Before starting the fat fast I was 196 at 17.5 % BF. I have been doing the fat fast for twenty days so far but have been incorporating carb refeeds on wednesdays and sundays as Per Joels cheaters diet recommendations, and I think it has made a difference.
I would not suggest consuming 1900 cals a day without an androgen or maybe a double dose of methoxy because you will loose to much LBM. I have actually gained muscle mass eating 1400 cals a day, and yes I’ll admit a little cardio.
What kind of diet are you going to be following? What are your stats now? I would be glad to help further if you need it.

i am in week 8 of my planned 11 week cutting cycle. Started at 200 lbs 18-20% bf (estimate) now i am at about 15% (skin fold)and my weight has droped to about 186. I have been using no supps other than oils and whey. Most of my fat sits on the lower waist and love-handles, pretty lean everywhere else. I am 5’10". I know i have droped some lbm because i look very flat. Thats why i was considering the 4-ad (it seems cheap to run for 2 weeks) Have also be thinking about adding t2, but not sure since all other stimulants have been useless in the past. I couls have been leaner by now but the first 3 weeks of my cutting i took sat & sun off and ate anything i could get my hands on. I have still been taking sat & sun off but eat really clean and seem to be really lean come mon. vs before. I only train 3 days /week but do cardio 5 days a week. Well this is getting long so i will leave it at that and wait for your reply.oh ya 280 g pro /day, 36 g carbs/day 77 grams fat /day

First I wouldn’t hestitate to use 4 Ad. Get it in as soon as you can to preserve your lBM. Also are you talking about using T2 or T2 Pro? T2 Pro isn;t a stimulant like ephedrine or caffeine. It just makes your thyroid function at a high normal level so that your metabolism won;t shut down while cutting. Also what kind of cardio are you doing? I would recommend HIIT rope work, and maybe cut that down to 2 or 3 days as you will lose LBM at 5 most likely. I would replace the cardio with an additional day in the gym giving you a 4 day a week split. I could give you a good 5X5 program if you like. You might also considering implementing controlled carb refeeds every 5 or 6 days. As per Joels recomendation they are to last 7.5 hours and be about what you would eat in a day(1900 kcal) consisting of 80 % carbs a little protein and as little fat as you can.
Also for your regular days I would cut the protein down to maybe 200 grams and up the fat. How many grams of EFA’s are you getting a day? Flax?
Also because you on a low carb diet I will assume you are eating a lot of meat. I would supplement with folic acid and ALA. Also I have just recently decided to start supplementing with calcium, although you may be getting enough dairy, but I am not. Any other questions you think of give me a shout back
:slight_smile: Groove

why do you suggest the ala? what effect will that have? I have used it in the past but with creatine. if you want drop me an e-mail and we can get into greater detail, i am very interested in what you have to suggest. take my full pusting name (above) and add the popular hotmail extention to it. Just throw something in the subgest line so i see it

Perhaps Groove has other reasons for recommending it, but the ALA will certainly help keep your insulin sensitivity up while going on a prolonged, low-carb diet.

Yah I recommended it for that and also because it seems to be a good antioxidant if one should be interested in health.
What’s going on with you right now?? What type of training you doing, diet? etc
If you are bulking I will be very envious as I am on day 21 of my fat fast.
Let me know what’s going on.
:slight_smile: groove

I am about to come off my 2 week massive eating cycle and taking Mag10. My plan was to go off andro for 2 weeks per instructions and take M, t2, tribex, methoxy7, md6. But now I read recommendations to maintain LBM that you should also go on 4ADEC during my 2 week down cycle to maintain LBM. Is this OK, as I thought the whole point was to cycle off andro for 2 weeks? What happens if you do not cycle off andro, does your natural testosterone production system get totally screwed up?

First of all, sorry about the slow response, man. I didn’t catch your post right off.
Anyhow, what am I up to? I’m finishing up Ian King’s complete body Get Buffed book program right now. Back in the low rep zone and loving it.
For the immediate future (December), since I’ll be home most of the time, I’ve decided to skip out on the gym for about 4 weeks and do some Dinosaur training on the farm (My dad is a farmer.) I’ve got some really cool stuff I’m looking forward to playing around with during this time. Farmer’s walks with tractor weights (used to weigh down the front of a tractor when you’re pulling something), 100lbs each. Sledgehammer GPP, sprints, jump rope, sprinting. Something I’m really excited about is this “tool bar” we have. What it is is simply a piece of scrap iron about 3" square and about 7 feet long. I’m guessing it weighs somewhere between 150-170lbs. I’ve done militaries with it before, and I’m looking forward to pressing it overhead until my head explodes! :slight_smile: I’ve got a wheelbarrow option, as well as heavy/large tires I can flip. Now I just need to design a coherant program out of all this.
After that, starting with next term, I’m following your lead. 4 weeks of Cheater Diet/Solid-food Fat Fast. I look to be starting at about 11-12%, making the big push for the 6-8% range. I’ll be allowing up to 5 additional weeks of more ‘conventional’ dieting after CheatersDiet, if necessary, but hopefully I won’t need much more. Strength training for the duration, of course. I’m actually going to play around with Westside principles, but focus on Olympics instead of deadlifts.
After that, I’ll be employing alternating periodization, using Poliquin’s favorite maximal-strength set/rep schemes from his ‘Modern Trends’ for intensification, alternated with EDT for accumulation. That alone, if I did every Poliquin set scheme, alternated with EDT for a month each (6 workouts, 5 day split), could last up to two years!
Anyhow, those are some of the ideas I’ve been kicking around. And yourself? Are you planning to bulk once you reach a critical BF%?

Go ahead and cycle off completely. The M, Tribex and Methoxy, used simultaneously, should help you hold onto every last ounce of LBM. You’re correct, if you didn’t cyle off, natural testosterone production would be supressed.

There’s an article out there in T-mag land that is titled the “Never Ending Cycle.” It bascially says that you can have 100-200 mg of 4AD-EC a day for 12-16 weeks. Take the Tribex and M after your cycle, I’m also using Methoxy 7 with the Tribex and M right now.
Best of luck,

No problem, I figured the psot got lost in the back pages of the forum. That sounds awesome, I am really looking forward to not paying for a gym membership and trying out some GPP when I come home for the summer. I don’t really have the option to do that on Campus(boy would people ever think I was crazy hehehe) Once i get down to about 10 % bodyfat I plan on bulking up(getting BF tested next week, I’m excited) Actually today was my carb refeed and I made a big ol pot of body builders chili, and I feel like I am going to explode. I am not sure how I am going to go from eating 1400 cals to eating 4000 a day. I think my stomach shrank.
I am finding good success with Poliquins 1-6. My squat has gone up quite abit and I have had fairly decent gains in deads, bench, and definetly in chins. I can actually do wide grips with additional weight now!! I am such a wimp.hehe.
I had a fun moment at the gym last week. I loaded up 250 on the squat(not very much by t-mag standards) and nocked out six slow(5 sec eccentrics) reps. Then this huge dude come up to the squat rep behind me and knocks out 6 ass to the grass squats with 5 plates on each side. There’s always someone to humble you!
Have you had any experiences with EDT. I am debating between doing EDT and Ian’s 12 week programs for legs and upper body, after I am done 1-6. What do you think??
:slight_smile: Groove

Thanks for the info. I thought the t2, md6, methoxy, tribex, and M would help keep my LBM, so I will do that. What do you think about the post after mine that talks about staying on 4 ADEC for 12 weeks?

Have you used double the methoxy dose, which is what I am thinking of doing. Not sure if I should then take 4 doses a day or just double my morning and evening doses. Any ideas?

Groove: I think any existing muscular imbalances will have a say in whether you choose EDT or King. If they exist, go with King, if not, try EDT. The advantage with EDT is that you don’t have the self-imposed 12-week “obligation” to finish it, as you do with the King program. The reason I say that’s a problem is because what you could do is try EDT for say, a month, just to see how you like it. If you’re getting mad gains or really like it, stick with it. If you’re interested in moving on, then you could try King. See what I mean?

Dan: Regarding 12 weeks of 4-AD-EC, I would say that preventative measures have to be taken both during the cyle and after. Choose your weapon: At least ‘M’, if not Clomid/Armidex(?)/whatever.

As for doubling the Methoxy dose, I suppose that’s an option if you can afford it. No way I could right now. But honestly, I used a single does of methoxy while dieting and I felt that helped me hold onto my muscle quite well. I didn’t notice much in the way of the so-called ‘hardening’ effect, you’ll have to observe for yourself.