T Nation

4-AD Cycling

Okay first, when you take 4-AD, does the extra T compensate by lowering T levels? If so I don’t see 4-AD as any good. Secondly, I have just finished my 4-week oral 4-AD cycle. After a 2 week break I am going to start my cylce of Cylo-diol and Androsol. I figure I will probably cycle these 6-8 on then 2 weeks off. Is this a good idea?

Matt: “[W]hen you take 4-AD, does the extra T compensate by lowering T levels? If so I don’t see 4-AD as any good. Secondly, I have just finished my 4-week oral 4-AD cycle.” Shouldn’t you have determined the answer to your question before you did your first cycle? In any event, I’m guessing that by the tone of your question, you didn’t see any results from that cycle. If so, why would you want to do a second cycle before you determine the cause of failure in your first? (By the way, as someone who has a good deal of direct experience with using 4-AD, IMO your time off is way too short. As a general thumbrule you should take at least as much time off as you were on last.)

As I understand 4-AD can only lower your natural T levels if you take it too long - especially if it elevates your T levels for 24 hours (like Androsol). 6-8 weeks is a long time and you may hinder the performance of Androsol by “stacking” as their will be less enzymes available for T conversion. I tried stacking Androsol with Pinnacle poppers & Paradeca and got shitty results - Androsol was 100% better when I used it alone. The only thing I may stack with Androsol in the future is Fina since it is a differen’t class of steroid.

What I am trying to get at is, that if you take 4-AD and it raises T levels a certain percentage, wouldn’t the body have to make up for this by lowering T levels the same percentage? Also in my cycle I am planning to use small amounts of Androsol to increase my T throughout the day, and Cylco-diol to give me that extra boost before I go to the gym.

Matt: One of your concerns is a misconception with respect to suppression of the HPTA axis, which can be minimized by, among other things: (1) limiting your 4-AD use to day-time only; (2) limiting your cycle length to no more than 6-8 weeks; and (3) ensuring full recovery by keeping your “off” time longer than what you plan. Another misconception involves the fact that 4-AD “works” more through an intrinsic effect of its own rather than a resultant increase in T levels (although it does that also, to a small extent). Personally, I’ve done two – and I’m now on my third – eight-week cycles of transdermal (e.g., Androsol) and intranasal 4-AD (sublingual application of cyclos, in a word, sucks) and I’ve had excellent strength and mass gains with no negative consequences whatsoever. Keeping with the above, I simply: (1) apply a maximal dose of transdermal first thing in the morning only; (2) starting “inhaling” three metered sprays of an intranasal cyclo formulation every two hours immediately after waking (until no later than 6 pm); and (3) take at least eight weeks off. Viola…

Why do you say that sublingual Cylco-diol sucks?

Well, I say sublingual sucks because, quite frankly, it does. Even Pat Arnold (the dude who manufactures and distributes cyclos under the LPJ and Ergopharm names) acknowledges that the sublingual delivery method isn’t that effective, and in fact he now publicly states that transdermal and intranasal are by far the most effective delivery methodologies for 4-AD (in that order).

By the way, this stuff rocks as a workout booster, but be careful with it at first becuase it can be very intense. Another thing: I was in a hurry while writing my previous post, and I meant to say that my intranasal dosage was three sprays in each nostril every two hours, etc.

Well, since I have already ordered 180 tabs of the sublingual Cyclo-diol I was wandering if there is any special way I could take them to get a better effect?

I tried the sublinguals when they first came out, and I found from my research that the best way to maximize them is to: (1) break the lozenge up prior to usage so you get a greater surface area; (2) try to keep it firmly under your tongue until it’s completely dissolved; and (3) don’t drink anything for at least 30 mins. after it’s dissolved. [A “whole” (i.e., non-broken) 4-AD lozenge takes about 30 mins. to dissolve completely, while the Nor-4-AD takes about 45 mins. In other words, using the sublinguals correctly requires quite a bit of time and effort.] One more thing: don’t try to make an intranasal solution out of the lonzenges. There are too many fillers and such, and you simply end up with a gummy, useless mess.

Well, how long do you think a bottle of Androsol should last, to get the most out of it? Should I use Androsol and Cycl-diol in the same cycle or seperate them?

Personally speaking, I’d use both at the same time by (1) applying the Androsol first thing in the morning along with using a lozenge and (2) use, say, 5 more lozenges spaced evenly throughout the day (but discoutinuing the lozenge use by 6 p.m. to avoid any suppression). The Androsol will give you an even “flow” of 4-AD throughout the day while the lozenges will give you several complimentary “spikes”. The 180 lozenges should last you four weeks, and one bottle of Androsol at 70 sprays each morning only should last you ~20 days. (This is similar to the cycles I do, expect I substitute intranasal application for sublingual.) By the way, if you’re trying to bulk up here, make sure to consume sufficient calories, including 1.5 to 2 grams of protein per lb. of bodyweight each day during your cycle, or you’ll be wasting your time and money. If you do all this, I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised with the results… :slight_smile:

Should I start taking 2 showers a day so I can remove the Androsol at night?

If wanting to have Androsol in the system only during the day and not in the evening and at
night, ideally one would shower by 7 PM and
get it all off (which requires a good soaping not just a rinse.) However, there would be no need so far as the Androsol is concerned to also take a shower in the morning. Obviously,
you might want to out of personal preference.

The other option is to say, heck with it,
and use twice per day, but use for only 2 weeks; or use for longer than 2 weeks (no
more than 8 weeks) and then taking at least
as long off as you were on, and preferably
twice as long, if you want to be conservative.
However a small fraction of users would
probably experience problems with testosterone
recovery with the longer cycles so we don’t
recommend them.

I don’t do the two showers thing, and I don’t really understand how it would help. Maybe Bill or Brock will correct me here, but it seems to me that by the time you get around to taking the evening shower, the 4-AD going to be absorbed for the most part anyway. Also, I believe the only effective way to ensure removal of the 4-AD once applied transdermally is to use a solvent such as isopropyl alcohol, and water doesn’t do the trick. In other words, I don’t worry about the evening shower, and I haven’t had any suppression problem, but I may also get corrected here.

Since the Androsol cannot be removed with just water, would I be able to apply Androsol before my morning shower without having to worry about any of the Androsol being removed?

I definitely wouldn’t apply Androsol before the morning shower. Yes, stepping under the shower and letting the water flow over you would remove rather little 4-AD, but who takes a shower that way? You’re going to want to use soap, and if you don’t, other people are going
to wish you did; and you are going to want to towel off too, rubbing with the towel. No doubt this would remove a lot of 4-AD because a fair amount of the top layer of skin is removed by a brisk toweling, and the 4-AD is adhered to that layer.

I agree with Bob that washing off in the early evening may be “belts and suspender” in that the 4-AD is largely gone. However, if there is no shower levels certainly will remain significant up to the 16 hour point. So it’s no big deal probably, but conceivably there could be some inhibition without that second shower (not one person seems to think they experience that inhibition however.)