T Nation

38, Tired and Frustrated


Does anyone have any experience with using tongkat ali? Supposedly it is supposed to stimulate the leydig cells similar to hcg and improve sperm quality and sperm production. Wondering if it has any legitimacy as HCG is supposed to be damn expensive and want to trigger the boys from shrinking anymore and crawling back up inside.


I went ahead and purchased some tongkat ali to try it out. I took some yesterday after work and immediately felt something with in 10 minutes but probably was a placebo effect. I felt energized right off but reason I believe it may have been placebo was it was so god awful tasting I think it just woke me up lol. I did have some dreams last night that I remembered and I don’t usually do that but not sure if it was actually from the tongkat. Unfortunately they were not good dreams and woke me up upset and a little anxiety but read for 20-30 min and was able to get back to sleep. This morning I doubled the dose just to see how I respond and feeling pretty good roughly 2 hours later, really awake and ready to go. Again too early for me to say it is actually from the tongkat though. I mostly am taking to see if my testicular atrophy diminishes and will report back on that aspect.


Apparently my E2 has dropped into single digits. I am going to stop AI and not take anymore unless I feel symptoms and probably only take half or .25mg. My blood pressure is still high and I am curious if anyone has ever had blood pressure high with low E. Most things I’ve read says the fluid retention with high E can cause blood pressure spikes but one source stated low E could cause fluid retention also so wondering if it could be caused by that. Hopefully someone can give some insight. Again could be the way he takes my blood pressure, need to verify with someone else taking it though.

My test has dropped back down from 4 weeks ago also, went from around 1000 back down to in the 500’s. When I tested with 1000 I was using 10 clicks of a 10% cream and when I ran out went to 5 clicks of 20% cream which is what I was doing with the test in the 500’s. Essentially should be same dosage but wondering if I am absorbing different due to the different strength of cream, just a theory though. Hoping I’m not just losing absorption. I am now up to 8 clicks and if no improvement or little improvement going to start fighting for injections.

Overall I do feel pretty decent though. Joints are hurting some but I also just got done with a week long of hiking around the mountains hunting so that doesn’t help matters. A little more tired than what I had been but still don’t think I have recovered all my sleep from my hunt either. Like I said though I still feel better than what I was before TRT so still feeling positive.


Body has few mechanisms for retaining water. From my experiences with low E2, yes, one can retain water even with crashed E2.

Different gels can effect with different results ( I have had bad experience and doctor confirmed that individuals responds differently to different gels.)

Fight for injections and learn to self inject. Good luck!


Anyone know what the symptoms of “too low” of DHT is? I tried googling but only got how to lower DHT and a little on if women have lower DHT. I was taking saw palmetto to lower the conversion rate (per my doctors instructions, no symptoms either) and started getting a headache that never went away and started feeling tired more often. I decided to see if it was the possible cause of my feeling lower than previously and stopped taking the saw palmetto. Headache has mostly gone away but still a slight ache still there here and there. Not prone to headaches so bugging me out a little. Still feeling sluggish but not sure if DHT will take a while to rebound. If anyone has had any experience with lowering DHT I would love any insight you might provide.


Still around floating the forum but haven’t really updated my own thread. Feeling pretty good right now. I crashed my E2 down to around 5, I believe is the number he gave with my test somewhere around mid 500. Without him saying anything I quit taking my arimidex (was at 1mg a week) for a couple weeks, as I started to feel tired all the time and joints were not feeling great. Played around with my dosage multiple times being paranoid on both sides of feeling I might be too low to thinking I was too high. Before I went in for bloods I had only been taking a 1/4 mg a week. I got bloods back and was up around 50 on my E and test was back up to 847. I am currently taking 1/4 mg of arimidex twice a week and will stick to that. Been doing that for about 2 weeks now and a feeling good. Hoping to get into labcorp to get DHT and free T ran as my doctor doesn’t test for free and his DHT cost over $200 where through discount labs I can get it for $85 I believe. The closest labcorp is 45 min away though so makes it harder to get there with having to miss work and all. Sorry kind of a rambling post but wanted to get enough info in it but not wanting to write a novel explaining everything.


I’d get off cream. Take the shots and split it up throughout the week and you might be able to get off ai for good. I’ve read AI side effects suck. Even if it doesn’t lower e2 you still can feel like crap on it. Some Folks say they have zero issues.

It’s a recurring theme on these boards. They take ai , start feeling good, then it all goes tk shit. They modify dose and they feel good again, then it drops… never ending cycle…


Would you be able to give more detail on symptoms you had when your E was down at 5? Curious what you noticed physically and mentally? Did you have brain fog, was sleep differnt, did you sweat more, libido and erections? Thanx.


I don’t see shots helping as on a cream as I am on a lower everyday dose. From everything I have read the larger doses can cause more conversion to E so going to shots would increase that conversion unless I injected everyday. That doesn’t appeal to me. Nothing I have read or heard says a cream will increase E conversion over shots. I have read it will with DHT especially applied to the nuts like I am, but not E. So not sure how shots would change my situation. I would rather be on shots so I don’t have to worry about losing absorption but as of right now I am doing good on it. Just having trouble with E conversion but a lot of that is probably due to me having some extra weight that I am currently trying to shed.


The most obvious to me was constantly being tired and joints were hurting. No brain fog or difference in sleep that I noticed. Libido didn’t really seem to be any lower but never have had an issue with that. Morning wood did seem to diminish along with pleasure of ejaculation. Most of my symptoms seemed a lot like pre TRT for me minus the brain fog. I was falling asleep constantly after work and nodding off a lot if I was the computer or in a meeting very long. Joints were probably my most telling though as when I went up stairs it sounded like I had a paper ball being wadded up in my knees. Still do sound like that but do not hurt as much anymore.


This sounds like crashed E2.


Yeah it was, I was crashed to around 5 I believe


Yes with HCG that is the case not being able to control E2 as it signals the testes to produce test and you cannot stop that conversion with an AI. Cream though is no different than shots except method of administration it is still test cyp. I do have more control than that of the gels that use the pump system as I am on a compounded cream and have more flexibility than you probably believe I have. I could lower my dose if I wanted to but I feel real good right now so don’t really want to. If I do happen to crash my E2 again then I might do that but as of right now I am going to wean off AI as my weight lowers. As I said I was taking 1mg a week so understandable I crashed it, I have made adjustments and testosterone is higher than when I crashed so should be in a good spot now. I am also hopefully going to get into get more blood drawn before my next doc appointment so I will catch any problems sooner than later this time.


My BP has raised since being on TRT and was wondering if anyone here has had any success using L-citrulline or l-arginine to lower theirs? Seem to be getting headaches in the gym now especially on leg days that I also believe is being caused by the elevated BP. Trying to get it fixed as naturally as possible before resorting to BP meds. While I also don’t really have any ED issues I would like to have a harder erection so any experience with that would be nice to know also. Thanks guys.


While on TRT estrogen has been tied to my BP issues which a micro dose AI saw it drop to a normal level.


I have had crashed E2, somewhat higher E2 and in between and still had slightly raised BP. I am on a AI now currently doing a .5mg a week. If it wasn’t for the headaches I would question the way my doc takes my BP though, as I have seen a 30 point swing in a matter of 10-15min in his office just by sitting on a exam table, back unsupported and him holding my arm to sitting in a regular office chair with arm on armrest. I need to schedule more bloods though and will get my E2 checked again. I went from being crashed down to around 5 at 1mg a week to really cutting back on the AI and jumping back up to around 50. I’ve adjusted dose of AI again so figure I should be in a decent spot but don’t know for sure yet.


Obviously no body wants to inject but it really isn’t bad, you dont even feel it and it takes less time then creams and gels. The only thing that bothers me is that I used gel for a month and put off injections thinking that they would hurt or that i wouldnt be able to do it.


The reason I’m not on injections is because my doctor isn’t allowed to prescribe them in the state I live. Some type of certification thing he doesn’t have. He can get them for me through another doctor but doesn’t want to go through the hassle. If I start having problems with the cream that is what I will move to and have no issue doing so. As of right now the only issue I am having is raised BP where I don’t think injections will make a difference.


You could better control your all your levels on injectables, example daily injections lowers E2 like no other protocol.

Defy Medical, problem solved.


I fail to see how daily injections vs daily creams would be much different unless you were having absorption issues and then would be the other way around with low t and low e2. Could you explain your thinking on this?