T Nation

30m Sprints

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
utfootball4 wrote:
we use to do stuff like depth jumps/drop but found that its very diffcult to do them when the speed volume is high like they are now.

Well that’s what I mean. If the sprint volume is high, you probably don’t need the power phase because the sprint work is doing that. I guess what I’m trying to say is that football is a little more acceleration and a little less top speed.

So I guess more short sprint work would do pretty much the same thing. I don’t know how much speed or special endurance you are doing, but that could be extra volume not really neccessary for a football player. Ya get what I’m trying to say?

i think i will drop the bsq on fri and do walking lunges 3-4sets and jump squats four weeks before his indoor season starts, what u think?

I think that is probably a good idea, since he’s already got the back squat on Monday.

BTW, I hope you know that I’ll probably be stealing that bb circuit for my own uses and for some of the players I work with!

[/quote]

hes doing alot of speed work see below for more details- this week speed workouts:

Week 4:
Mon: 780m
Warmup C
4x30
4x30 3 point
3x3x60 (30) 2/5
med throws see sheet
running A’s 5x30

Tue:
warmup 1+hurdles
bb circuit
med ball 360 throws
core: 500

Wed: 600m
Warmup W
4x30
4x30 3 point
3x20-20-20 efe
3x60 40+

Thur:
Rest

Fri: 780m
Warmup Z
4x30
4x30 3 point
3x3x60 (30) 2/5
med throws see sheet
running A’s 5x30

now with the strength lay out tell me what u think:
mon:
power clean
spilt jerk
back squat/depth drop to mini hurdle hop 3x through

wed:
hang clean
snatch dl/slj x2
bp

fri:
power clean
jump squat wave loading 6-8 sets
225 rep work

now my question is should i add the walking lunges in and if so which day, i just dont see much value in during light single leg work and most of my guys have problems with there piriformis when during heavy single leg work??

Remember that Charlie also works with some of the most rate dominant athletes that the Cannucks can muster, so those athletes will always need a lesser Power Conversion phase since they usually have a much smaller explosive strength deficit.

Plus, Charlie’s main focus is always the track work, whereas other team sport coaches might move fully away from running for a time (Schroeder). So, a power phase might be more necessary if this set-up is used.

Also, remember that the ‘NSCA 6-week power conversion phase’ is again based on a) linear periodization model, and b) results from years of observations of DI scholarship FB players who may train up north (ie, rate dominant, less running work). So, your athletes may need a longer conversion phase.

I thought stride length was predominantly determined by power at toe-off, which results in the bound length between strides… hmmm.

So, if we are saying that a shorter person predetermines a shorter stride length, then are we somehow discounting the results of Weyand’s work?

Namely that a shorter person has a shorter stride length, so in order to keep up they would have to have a higher turnover rate… but Weyand has shown that shorter ground contact times are caused by greater ground contact forces… which would result in a longer stride length due to longer airborne bound lengths…

oops… we then would disprove the height idea…

So, are we saying Weyand was a cookoo and stride length is more related to height than to power at toe-off, or…?

Height correlation to stride length seems very closely related to the flexibility and stride length camp…

Or maybe UTFootball’s little brother absorbs force amazingly well during the ground contact phase (due to all the squats and PC’s), but has little concentric power at toe-off (relative) due to a lack of unilateral work and strength exercises that emphasize power during full hip extension…

Just stirring the pot a bit…

J

[quote]Jumanji wrote:
Remember that Charlie also works with some of the most rate dominant athletes that the Cannucks can muster, so those athletes will always need a lesser Power Conversion phase since they usually have a much smaller explosive strength deficit.

Plus, Charlie’s main focus is always the track work, whereas other team sport coaches might move fully away from running for a time (Schroeder). So, a power phase might be more necessary if this set-up is used.

Also, remember that the ‘NSCA 6-week power conversion phase’ is again based on a) linear periodization model, and b) results from years of observations of DI scholarship FB players who may train up north (ie, rate dominant, less running work). So, your athletes may need a longer conversion phase.

I thought stride length was predominantly determined by power at toe-off, which results in the bound length between strides… hmmm.

So, if we are saying that a shorter person predetermines a shorter stride length, then are we somehow discounting the results of Weyand’s work?

Namely that a shorter person has a shorter stride length, so in order to keep up they would have to have a higher turnover rate… but Weyand has shown that shorter ground contact times are caused by greater ground contact forces… which would result in a longer stride length due to longer airborne bound lengths…

oops… we then would disprove the height idea…

So, are we saying Weyand was a cookoo and stride length is more related to height than to power at toe-off, or…?

Height correlation to stride length seems very closely related to the flexibility and stride length camp…

Or maybe UTFootball’s little brother absorbs force amazingly well during the ground contact phase (due to all the squats and PC’s), but has little concentric power at toe-off (relative) due to a lack of unilateral work and strength exercises that emphasize power during full hip extension…

Just stirring the pot a bit…

J[/quote]

not sure if u have read some of cf books and viewed his dvd’s but he dont believe in power phases for any athlete who does lots of speed work and trying to get faster, bc u cant copy sprinting speeds in the weight room and there is no higher speed then sprinting, so do u think my bro would still benefit from a power phase even though hes doing lots of sprinting, jumps, med throws? also i thought the ol’s increase power through full hip extension?? do u think the risk is worth it by performing single leg lifts med-heavy weight and causing piriformis irritation? could you lay out a sample strength workout just to give me a sample idea of what you are talking? thanks

Yes, I am very familiar with Charlie’s work, and he is spot on… with the style of training he does, and the type of athletes he works with…

Your brother obviously is powerful with his numbers… he is just fine…

Remember, even Charlie has said that a long to short program can work better for certain athletes (pretty sure)… but not the type he works with…hmm.

The Olympic lifts work through full hip extension? What I mean is to work through full hip extension when running… namely 30 degrees behind neutral.

Squats, Deads, OL’s do not work this range… 4-Way hip, Reverse Hypers, Weight vest skips and bounds, bungee skips and bounds, sled work does work this… Korfist has a great article on this type of athlete and the steps towards correction…

I would bet that your brother has a very tight core region, from the video and the comments you just made, I would recommend Cressey’s MM DVD and Stretch to Win… If he works those two products religiously, his hip region will loosen, regain a healthy status, and toe-off will be easier… I think he fights his own toe-off power quite a bit due to tightness… and doesn’t do enough work in this area… he is obviously strong… but looks like a tied up clunker… powerful, but tied up.

I would love to see his numbers if he were fluid. Might make a run into your 100m range…

Good luck.

J

[quote]Jumanji wrote:
Yes, I am very familiar with Charlie’s work, and he is spot on… with the style of training he does, and the type of athletes he works with…

Your brother obviously is powerful with his numbers… he is just fine…

Remember, even Charlie has said that a long to short program can work better for certain athletes (pretty sure)… but not the type he works with…hmm.

The Olympic lifts work through full hip extension? What I mean is to work through full hip extension when running… namely 30 degrees behind neutral.

Squats, Deads, OL’s do not work this range… 4-Way hip, Reverse Hypers, Weight vest skips and bounds, bungee skips and bounds, sled work does work this… Korfist has a great article on this type of athlete and the steps towards correction…

I would bet that your brother has a very tight core region, from the video and the comments you just made, I would recommend Cressey’s MM DVD and Stretch to Win… If he works those two products religiously, his hip region will loosen, regain a healthy status, and toe-off will be easier… I think he fights his own toe-off power quite a bit due to tightness… and doesn’t do enough work in this area… he is obviously strong… but looks like a tied up clunker… powerful, but tied up.

I would love to see his numbers if he were fluid. Might make a run into your 100m range…

Good luck.

J
[/quote]

where can i find that article?

[quote]Edders wrote:
utfootball4 wrote:
can you guys check my lil bro running tech hes running a 30m sprint from a 3point position and a 60m sprint from a standing where he acc for 40m then maintain for 20m? thanks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPLqZCLppeU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvvpD38-hbQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTp_vJrTOe8

You want the truth right? You did ask on an open forum right? Okay.

He has the stride of a midget. But it’s not just that his stride is short, he also seems to have a problem actually lifting his feet and knees up. And he’s also leaning slightly back for the final half or so. I don’t like how he moves his head either. And as far as his arm swing, well it leaves much to be desired.

Please get him some good coaching. I’m sure he’ll improve fast.

[/quote]

he was running thinking of strength and not grace

[quote]Jumanji wrote:
Yes, I am very familiar with Charlie’s work, and he is spot on… with the style of training he does, and the type of athletes he works with…

Your brother obviously is powerful with his numbers… he is just fine…

Remember, even Charlie has said that a long to short program can work better for certain athletes (pretty sure)… but not the type he works with…hmm.

The Olympic lifts work through full hip extension? What I mean is to work through full hip extension when running… namely 30 degrees behind neutral.

Squats, Deads, OL’s do not work this range… 4-Way hip, Reverse Hypers, Weight vest skips and bounds, bungee skips and bounds, sled work does work this… Korfist has a great article on this type of athlete and the steps towards correction…

I would bet that your brother has a very tight core region, from the video and the comments you just made, I would recommend Cressey’s MM DVD and Stretch to Win… If he works those two products religiously, his hip region will loosen, regain a healthy status, and toe-off will be easier… I think he fights his own toe-off power quite a bit due to tightness… and doesn’t do enough work in this area… he is obviously strong… but looks like a tied up clunker… powerful, but tied up.

I would love to see his numbers if he were fluid. Might make a run into your 100m range…

Good luck.

J
[/quote]

dont worry i found the articles, he made some good points, the weightroom is only a small piece of his program and thats why we only do the 2-4 big lifts and let our track work take care the rest, if i were to add more weight room type drills then something would have to give.

“utfootball”.

IF you put it all together, it might be a blend that even old charlie francis hasnt done or discredited.

So dont make these the end all, be alls.

That say he tone down a bit on his speed work and focus on getting past that 40" vertical, or better yet gaining 3" on it in the next 6 months should translate over to the sprinting.

That even though he’s doing well, you want a most impressive performance if allowed.

That at 5’7" im not sure about staying at fullback is the best choice cause hes going to really need to carry more weight. And I didnt even say nothin abot height.

That he might move over to one of the “speed positions”.

That the start still sucks and even old charlie francis can decide for 5 years its not as importance as it once was and 5 years later come back and say it should never be neglected.

I say shoot for getting that 40" vertical, moving to a speed position.

If the core is already tight make it even tighter, to a painstaking amount that almost nobody will be sane enough to do. I mean the entire core, abs, obliques, lower back is physically strong and physicall tight.

That the 40" vertical alone at a moderate weight, say 205lbs will yield that 2 or 3" extra per stride.

To findout by talking with some who aren’t at the very top, what training peices appeared to be “breakthru’s”.

[quote]djrobins wrote:
“utfootball”.

IF you put it all together, it might be a blend that even old charlie francis hasnt done or discredited.

So dont make these the end all, be alls.

That say he tone down a bit on his speed work and focus on getting past that 40" vertical, or better yet gaining 3" on it in the next 6 months should translate over to the sprinting.

That even though he’s doing well, you want a most impressive performance if allowed.

That at 5’7" im not sure about staying at fullback is the best choice cause hes going to really need to carry more weight. And I didnt even say nothin abot height.

That he might move over to one of the “speed positions”.

That the start still sucks and even old charlie francis can decide for 5 years its not as importance as it once was and 5 years later come back and say it should never be neglected.

I say shoot for getting that 40" vertical, moving to a speed position.

If the core is already tight make it even tighter, to a painstaking amount that almost nobody will be sane enough to do. I mean the entire core, abs, obliques, lower back is physically strong and physicall tight.

That the 40" vertical alone at a moderate weight, say 205lbs will yield that 2 or 3" extra per stride.

To findout by talking with some who aren’t at the very top, what training peices appeared to be “breakthru’s”.[/quote]

im not sure where u guys get fullback from he play tailback and kick return. so list a simple program of what u r talking about?

Lower Body I From kelly b site, is this what u r talking bout - something along these lines for a strength program

Box Squat - 50-60% x 3-5 (drop quickly to parallel with your butt off the box, sit back and explode up - use bands for increased effectiveness)

Jump Squat (full) - 30-40% x 3-5 (drop into the bottom and immediately rebound out and jump)

Speed glute ham or Dimel Deadlift x 5-15 (drop into the bottom of a glute ham and rebound up)

Lower Body II

Depth Drop into squat x 3

Depth jump x 3

40 yard dash x 3

Hang snatch (or underhand medicine ball toss) 80-85% x 3-5

“utfootball”.

When you said FB I thought you where talking in Football terms such as WR, TB, QB, OL, etc.

You meant football. My mistake. I never saw Tailback, so the FB I thought was fullback.

For tailback hell yeah. You going the right direction.

Some think my posts wording come off as “negative” but it is simply purely technical. I mean no insults
and I believe that I pretty much said what you guys want.

If he could take a 6.5sec 55M time to 6.3, or even 6.2sec the better

If that means the 40yd is shaved .1 or .15 on a consistent basis, the better.

That 2" or 3" in 6 months on the vertical, would be great and if he could clear 40" consistently on vertical hops the better. (Kelly Bagget and power cleans)

“utfootball”.

When you said FB I thought you where talking in Football terms such as WR, TB, QB, OL, etc.

You meant football. My mistake. I never saw Tailback, so the FB I thought was fullback.

For tailback hell yeah. You going the right direction.

Some think my posts wording come off as “negative” but it is simply purely technical. I mean no insults
and I believe that I pretty much said what you guys want.

If he could take a 6.5sec 55M time to 6.3, or even 6.2sec the better

If that means the 40yd is shaved .1 or .15 on a consistent basis, the better.

That 2" or 3" in 6 months on the vertical, would be great and if he could clear 40" consistently on vertical hops the better. (Kelly Bagget and power cleans)

[quote]djrobins wrote:
“utfootball”.

When you said FB I thought you where talking in Football terms such as WR, TB, QB, OL, etc.

You meant football. My mistake. I never saw Tailback, so the FB I thought was fullback.

For tailback hell yeah. You going the right direction.

Some think my posts wording come off as “negative” but it is simply purely technical. I mean no insults
and I believe that I pretty much said what you guys want.

If he could take a 6.5sec 55M time to 6.3, or even 6.2sec the better

If that means the 40yd is shaved .1 or .15 on a consistent basis, the better.

That 2" or 3" in 6 months on the vertical, would be great and if he could clear 40" consistently on vertical hops the better. (Kelly Bagget and power cleans)

[/quote]

my man do u know how rare a 40in vj is?? u still havent listed a program to get 2-3in?

Kelley bagget’s works.

Do this along with olympic lifts and/or minimally power cleans. Take this work seriously, like your life depends on it.

Minimize wasteful activities, video games, talking bullshit, laughing, having 50 friends, etc.

I gained 6" over a summer 3 months on a Bagget-like workout, but Im was not starting as closer to my peak as your bro.

We all know 40" is rare, but can be done, and all those doing it havent’ had to painstakefully grab it.

Your brother is going to gain 3" in 6 months by taking a Bagget like workout religously, and putting all other bullshit aside.

He’s going to get another 2" or so in the next 6 months.

I’d like to talk with you offline.

You pretty much want your brother to be a beast and have some brain funciton left.

He’s not going to deplete his energy playing several back to back games of hoops.

He’s not going to drink so bad that he throws his liver up and out.

And he’s not going to have too much fun.

He’s going to be managed and know how and when to get full power.

PHOUC FUN, make money. And Im sure this why your looking after him.

He can have fun PHOUCIN and even that will be strategic, and only done so he’s not killing somebody.

I’m talking about having your bro fully jacked to the moon, where he’s about an inch from being in jail.

And I know I sound crazy, but your bro needs to be about an inch from crazy.

You going to somehow convey that his life depends on it.

If he has some shorties, it makes it much easier, that he can make their life better for the rest of their life if he stops phoucin around.

[quote]utfootball4 wrote:

now my question is should i add the walking lunges in and if so which day, i just dont see much value in during light single leg work and most of my guys have problems with there piriformis when during heavy single leg work??[/quote]

I remember you posting about heavy single leg work on the CF forum.

Everything’s gotta be measured risk-reward. If the walking lunges are irritating the piriformis and tightening him up, then it’s probably not worth it- he’ll gain strength but won’t be able to display it. Do Bulgarian Split Squats give the same problem?

Personally, your sprint program looks good. He may not even need power work since all of that sprint work is short-distance stuff.

Then again, sometimes a change in stimulus is good and some plyo work (along with some jump squats, reactive glute-hams, etc.) might lead to some positive changes.

You’re the only one who can really make the decisions, since you’re the one working with him up close and personally and evaluating him. I’m just trying to give you some things to think about.

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
utfootball4 wrote:

now my question is should i add the walking lunges in and if so which day, i just dont see much value in during light single leg work and most of my guys have problems with there piriformis when during heavy single leg work??

I remember you posting about heavy single leg work on the CF forum.

Everything’s gotta be measured risk-reward. If the walking lunges are irritating the piriformis and tightening him up, then it’s probably not worth it- he’ll gain strength but won’t be able to display it. Do Bulgarian Split Squats give the same problem?

Personally, your sprint program looks good. He may not even need power work since all of that sprint work is short-distance stuff.

Then again, sometimes a change in stimulus is good and some plyo work (along with some jump squats, reactive glute-hams, etc.) might lead to some positive changes.

You’re the only one who can really make the decisions, since you’re the one working with him up close and personally and evaluating him. I’m just trying to give you some things to think about.

[/quote]

thanks bro,i think my bro could do lite walking lunges but i just dont see much benefit from such a light lift, he use to do lots of single leg lifts like heavy lunges with 300+ and heavy 1 leg squats with 245+ for 5<reps but last spring those heavy movements really hinder his piriformis so we had to drop them. i agree with you about the sprint program bc if we were during a football type running program then i would say yes to more power stuff. whats ur thought on doing lite walking lunges??

i do have few questions for you. how accurate the numbers u posted are ?i’m referring to 55 and 100 m time.

[quote]soccerstud wrote:
i do have few questions for you. how accurate the numbers u posted are ?i’m referring to 55 and 100 m
[/quote]

what do u mean how accurate, they all are fat, thats why i didnt post his 40 times bc its handtimed.

[quote]utfootball4 wrote:
whats ur thought on doing lite walking lunges??[/quote]

Probably not be that much benefit. You’d get more out of doing light step-ups and doing them explosively, driving the opposite leg up.

I mean, light walking lunges could work well for recovery and stuff, but probably not much else.

[quote]soccerstud wrote:
i do have few questions for you. how accurate the numbers u posted are ?i’m referring to 55 and 100 m time.
[/quote]

FAT means “fully automatic timing”, so that’s basically the standard for accuracy.

well there is something not clear to me . how can he ran a 6.5 55m with a 0.118 m/s speed and then ran a 10.8 100m where the average speed is obviosly 0.108m/s.thats 0.095 m/s speed on the remaining 45m. i have yet to see some one that can ran 100 m and acc. on the last 20 to 30 m that way when top level sprinters try to mantain speed at best. wouldnt be more exact a 11.8 s 100m time ?