T Nation

30m Sprints

[quote]sasquatch wrote:
utfootball4 wrote:
sasquatch wrote:
I was going to respond, but then I read every response of yours and have come to the conclusion that you are not here to get better, you just wanted a pat on the back.

Everyone who has taken the time to respond has made valid points and you have deflected them all and used elite sprinters as your argument. You make excuses and attempts at validation. You’ve made your own thread useless

I’m even fairly certain that this is not your little bro, but in fact you.

if u dont want to respond then dont, i really dont care what you think… im gonna say what i think of his runs and you guys can do the same, its not like i never played sports myself, i ran a 10.5m 100m and played rb/wr at div 1 school in texas. anyways enough on ur stupid post. thanks to the guys who make comments valid comments.

yet you respond!

If you ran a 10.5 and played D1 football in Texas, you wouldn’t be asking these questions or you would receive the critiques with an open mind.

Though, some of this does explain your posting style and proves what I think about Texas’ education system.[/quote]

yep ur right i responed!!

its funny that everyone else gave very good posts besides you, what does that say?? me running 10.5 and playing div 1 doesnt mean anything, doesnt mean i cant get other people opinion and compare thoughts…

I think he might be keeping his head down a tad too long. I know it’s the “in-thing” (for good reason probably), but on that third video, you can see that his stride has shifted away from acceleration (his ground contact is right underneath him) and his head is still down with his upper back rounded. You know what I’m trying to say there?

It could be the youtube inability to go frame-by-frame, but after enough tries you can stop it at contact and see what I’m talking about. I guess it could be that he might need to drive out for a little longer, but with his weightroom numbers, it doesn’t seem like horsepower is a big issue.

I do think his steps are a litle choppy, but he’s not overstriding (in fact, if you get a freeze frame of him at contact in that first video, it looks real good to me). Is he relaxing enough? Is he trying to put his foot down instead of just stepping down? I know how active you are at CF, so I’m sure you’re coaching him on these things, just maybe some thoughts.

You obviously know the kid’s fast, but of course we can all get better. I probably said a lot of things that you already know (or may not even be accurate), I’m just throwing some shit out there to maybe give you some ideas.

[quote]utfootball4 wrote:
sasquatch wrote:
utfootball4 wrote:
sasquatch wrote:
I was going to respond, but then I read every response of yours and have come to the conclusion that you are not here to get better, you just wanted a pat on the back.

Everyone who has taken the time to respond has made valid points and you have deflected them all and used elite sprinters as your argument. You make excuses and attempts at validation. You’ve made your own thread useless

I’m even fairly certain that this is not your little bro, but in fact you.

if u dont want to respond then dont, i really dont care what you think… im gonna say what i think of his runs and you guys can do the same, its not like i never played sports myself, i ran a 10.5m 100m and played rb/wr at div 1 school in texas. anyways enough on ur stupid post. thanks to the guys who make comments valid comments.

yet you respond!

If you ran a 10.5 and played D1 football in Texas, you wouldn’t be asking these questions or you would receive the critiques with an open mind.

Though, some of this does explain your posting style and proves what I think about Texas’ education system.

yep ur right i responed!!

its funny that everyone else gave very good posts besides you, what does that say?? me running 10.5 and playing div 1 doesnt mean anything, doesnt mean i cant get other people opinion and compare thoughts…[/quote]

It says --you don’t like to hear the truth!

And getting other peoples opinion would infer you are willing to then listen. You are not. You are not comparing thoughts–you are trying to defend.

From my memory–

you have suggested that some issues someone poointed out were because he was in the middle of a workout. He had done heavy squats the day before…
Then why the hell take a video of him then for evaluation.

You have compared him to Ben Johnson, Maurice Drew, and Flo Jo for cripes sake trying to defend his style–or lack there of.

And lastly his other issues may be due to what phase of training he is in. When he goes to the next phase that will be corrected.

Whatever dude. If you show me one post where you are accepting critique and working on an action plan–I will relent. Until then–you came here for a pat on the back for your 6.5 55m and you didn’t get it.

Unfortunately sasquatch, I’m starting to think you have a valid point here.

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
I think he might be keeping his head down a tad too long. I know it’s the “in-thing” (for good reason probably), but on that third video, you can see that his stride has shifted away from acceleration (his ground contact is right underneath him) and his head is still down with his upper back rounded. You know what I’m trying to say there?

It could be the youtube inability to go frame-by-frame, but after enough tries you can stop it at contact and see what I’m talking about. I guess it could be that he might need to drive out for a little longer, but with his weightroom numbers, it doesn’t seem like horsepower is a big issue.

I do think his steps are a litle choppy, but he’s not overstriding (in fact, if you get a freeze frame of him at contact in that first video, it looks real good to me). Is he relaxing enough? Is he trying to put his foot down instead of just stepping down? I know how active you are at CF, so I’m sure you’re coaching him on these things, just maybe some thoughts.

You obviously know the kid’s fast, but of course we can all get better. I probably said a lot of things that you already know (or may not even be accurate), I’m just throwing some shit out there to maybe give you some ideas.[/quote]

yes i am very active on charlie francis site in fact hes doing cf spp workouts at this time. i do agree with you about his head position, so do u think we need to tell him to get into the running position sooner since his head is already up?

the thing i was trying to say about his stride length is, hes only 5’7 so his stride will never be huge and i was comparing him to maurice drew since they have similar build and numbers and if u look at drew 40yd video his stride isnt long.

the things we worked on today was just staying relax and letting the speed come and also driving the knees.

[quote]utfootball4 wrote:
yes i am very active on charlie francis site in fact hes doing cf spp workouts at this time. i do agree with you about his head position, so do u think we need to tell him to get into the running position sooner since his head is already up? [/quote]

Maybe. I honestly don’t feel confident saying something definitive after just a couple youtube videos (and the fact that I’m not a sprint coach), but maybe something to keep in the back of your head.

[quote]

the thing i was trying to say about his stride length is, hes only 5’7 so his stride will never be huge and i was comparing him to maurice drew since they have similar build and numbers and if u look at drew 40yd video his stride isnt long.

the things we worked on today was just staying relax and letting the speed come and also driving the knees.[/quote]

That’s a good point about the stride length. With his build, he’s really going to have to dominate that start, even for the 60m. To get into that elite range, he’s probably going to have to get his squat up even higher (although you probably already know that), it sounds crazy to think that a 585 squat isn’t enough, but maybe to get to the next level he does need a little more horsepower.

You definitly sound like you’ve got him off to a great start. I think as long as you keep him on the right training plan and just keep coaching him on stepping down and relaxing he’ll continue to improve.

How old is he, BTW?

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
utfootball4 wrote:
yes i am very active on charlie francis site in fact hes doing cf spp workouts at this time. i do agree with you about his head position, so do u think we need to tell him to get into the running position sooner since his head is already up?

Maybe. I honestly don’t feel confident saying something definitive after just a couple youtube videos (and the fact that I’m not a sprint coach), but maybe something to keep in the back of your head.

the thing i was trying to say about his stride length is, hes only 5’7 so his stride will never be huge and i was comparing him to maurice drew since they have similar build and numbers and if u look at drew 40yd video his stride isnt long.

the things we worked on today was just staying relax and letting the speed come and also driving the knees.

That’s a good point about the stride length. With his build, he’s really going to have to dominate that start, even for the 60m. To get into that elite range, he’s probably going to have to get his squat up even higher (although you probably already know that), it sounds crazy to think that a 585 squat isn’t enough, but maybe to get to the next level he does need a little more horsepower.

You definitly sound like you’ve got him off to a great start. I think as long as you keep him on the right training plan and just keep coaching him on stepping down and relaxing he’ll continue to improve.

How old is he, BTW?
[/quote]

hes 20yrs old, he does track in the offseason to work on his speed and football in the fall as a rb/kr. we have been improving his top speed each year considering hes only 5’7, i think it would really help if he got down to 195-200lb but he dont want to since he play fb. what do u guys think about jump squats, speed squats, walking lunges, bc right now his weights are as follows:

mon:
power clean
back squats
bench press

wed:
hang clean
snatch deadlifts
speed bench press

fri:
power clean
back squats
bench press

also do u guys think that sled pulls may help?

i would consider adding in some form of unilateral work definantly can help with his frist step speed.

id consider adding in some box jumps every so often also prior to a big squat session and if you do drop the cleans etc that day only.

I’m not a big fan of speed squats if you aren’t a powerlifter. I mean, I guess they have some benefit, but why not just do jump squats or oly lifts? I feel like both of those exercises are going to give him more benefit. It really all depends on how he converts power. If he naturally converts his strength well to power, that’s going to work well for him, if not, he might need a power block with some jump squats, plyos, speed-strength work, etc.

Does he do any work for the back? Pull-ups, etc.

Is it me or does this kid not look very smooth sprinting? He looks too “choppy”

Compare it to this guy (10.5 100M):

http://www.inno-sport.net/Articles%20Media/Good%20Accel.mov

[quote]big49ersfan wrote:
i would consider adding in some form of unilateral work definantly can help with his frist step speed.

id consider adding in some box jumps every so often also prior to a big squat session and if you do drop the cleans etc that day only.

[/quote]

thanks for your help, i was thinking about maybe dropping the bsq on fri and adding in some jump squats and walking lunges - what u think? we did box jumps in his gpp program but drop them now, i forgot to add that we complex all lower lower body movements for example:

mon:
back squat/hurdle hop

wed:
snatch dl/standing lj

fri:
same as mon

i just dont want to add too many jumps since he is doing a lot of speed work, med ball throws and jumps in the weightroom.

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
I’m not a big fan of speed squats if you aren’t a powerlifter. I mean, I guess they have some benefit, but why not just do jump squats or oly lifts? I feel like both of those exercises are going to give him more benefit. It really all depends on how he converts power. If he naturally converts his strength well to power, that’s going to work well for him, if not, he might need a power block with some jump squats, plyos, speed-strength work, etc.

Does he do any work for the back? Pull-ups, etc.[/quote]

if i use your example i would say he may need a power phase, but as you may know Cf isnt really big on power phases bc he say with all the speed work, med throws, ol’s and jumps you shouldnt need a power phase and also u cant copy sprinting speeds in the weight room - whats ur thought?? you can also see the above post about the jumps hes doing.

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
I’m not a big fan of speed squats if you aren’t a powerlifter. I mean, I guess they have some benefit, but why not just do jump squats or oly lifts? I feel like both of those exercises are going to give him more benefit. It really all depends on how he converts power. If he naturally converts his strength well to power, that’s going to work well for him, if not, he might need a power block with some jump squats, plyos, speed-strength work, etc.

Does he do any work for the back? Pull-ups, etc.[/quote]

i forgot to add he did lots of heavy back work etc in his gpp program but once the sprinting intesity goes up something as to give so we had to cut alot of the aux stuff out, he perform his big lifts and speed work on m-w-f, and perform recovery stuff on t-th-sat like bb circuit, med ball circuits and tempo runs - below you can see the two bb circuits he performs - they are from lsu sprint program:

Circuit A:
Leg curls
twist lunges
good mornings
bent rows
lat pd bh
dips
bh sh press
leg ext
twist situps
hang leg lifts
russ twist

Circuit B:
single leg curl
sdl
good mornings
bent row
lat pd fr
bh press
single leg ext
weight ball crunch
hang leg lift side
russ twist
weighted v up

[quote]Ze wrote:
Is it me or does this kid not look very smooth sprinting? He looks too “choppy”

Compare it to this guy (10.5 100M):

http://www.inno-sport.net/Articles%20Media/Good%20Accel.mov[/quote]

yes his stride isnt long but do you think his 5’7 height plays a role.

Just want to thank all the guys who made comments they are really helping, so once again thanks a lot.

[quote]utfootball4 wrote:

if i use your example i would say he may need a power phase, but as you may know Cf isnt really big on power phases bc he say with all the speed work, med throws, ol’s and jumps you shouldnt need a power phase and also u cant copy sprinting speeds in the weight room - whats ur thought?? you can also see the above post about the jumps hes doing.

[/quote]

I definitly agree with you that a power phase might not needed IF he’s training stricly for sprinting. I just feel that football, especially as a fullback, starts to drift away from pure speed to situations where strength-speed is required. ie, having to transfer power with a broke stride (like after a spin move carrying the ball) where you have to start up again, or a drive block, etc.

I guess it depends on what his goals are. I mean, it’s not THAT different, but if football is more important that sprinting to him, he a phase where he focuses on power absorbtion/production with some stuff like depth drops work to split-squat drops and single-leg drops along with hammering some unilateral stuff like around-the-clock lunges and explosive step-ups might help him out on the football field.

Again, that’s all the 5% stuff (you’ve got the 95% down for sure it seems) that you gotta tweak based on what you’re seeing cause you’re in there watching him train.

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
utfootball4 wrote:

if i use your example i would say he may need a power phase, but as you may know Cf isnt really big on power phases bc he say with all the speed work, med throws, ol’s and jumps you shouldnt need a power phase and also u cant copy sprinting speeds in the weight room - whats ur thought?? you can also see the above post about the jumps hes doing.

I definitly agree with you that a power phase might not needed IF he’s training stricly for sprinting. I just feel that football, especially as a fullback, starts to drift away from pure speed to situations where strength-speed is required. ie, having to transfer power with a broke stride (like after a spin move carrying the ball) where you have to start up again, or a drive block, etc.

I guess it depends on what his goals are. I mean, it’s not THAT different, but if football is more important that sprinting to him, he a phase where he focuses on power absorbtion/production with some stuff like depth drops work to split-squat drops and single-leg drops along with hammering some unilateral stuff like around-the-clock lunges and explosive step-ups might help him out on the football field.

Again, that’s all the 5% stuff (you’ve got the 95% down for sure it seems) that you gotta tweak based on what you’re seeing cause you’re in there watching him train. [/quote]

thanks for your help, im kinda lost how training a tailback would be much diff from trainng a 60m sprinter bc both need strength, power, speed and with the tail back of course needing more agility etc, so why would the tailback need to do power phase and a sprinter wouldnt?

u said strength speed i thought ols were strenth speed? we use to do stuff like depth jumps/drop but found that its very diffcult to do them when the speed volume is high like they are now.

i think i will drop the bsq on fri and do walking lunges 3-4sets and jump squats four weeks before his indoor season starts, what u think?

“utfootball”

We all know we aren’t “Charlie Francis” OR “Ben Johnson” on this BBS>

YOu put up your post because you wanted to see if we’d notice anything that could help someone who was already moving.

Theres always something. And Ill give an example.

When I was in HS my school 4x100 relay could’ve at least MADE it to state every single year. Not saying they couldve won every year. But they couldve made it out.

The team downplayed the importance of “acceleration zones” on the 4x100 relay and baton handoffs.

Because of this the 4x100 relay was usually adding up each guys 100M time and adding on more for error. So 4 11.0 sec guys ar running 44.2, 44.8, 45.0 for the relay.

I mentioned it to some people, but of course people are always trying to do the minimum to get by and won’t listen to someone that may not have been naturally blessed as them.

In any case, they missed what 3 out of 4 years.

I was pretty much trying to say, if you do it perfect you can have a 1 sec or even greater improvement over doing it “naturally”.

instead you have:

  1. People running up on peoples back.
  2. 4 strides of accelerations before a handoff
  3. Runnning past handoff zones
  4. “Probing” hand as wasting 1 second of time on an exchange.

Acceleration zones and good handoffs would allow 4 11.00 runners to make a 4x100 relay of as good as 42.25 seconds and 4 10.00 runners to run a 38.0 seconds. you know what Im saying.

That when you do it right, the time is greater than the sum of the wholes.

Its why the 4 10.00 runners will put up greater than 40.00 if they are at all doing it right.

The 4x100 relays at my school where often 4 times each guys 100m time or worse!

So four 11.00 second guys putting up 45.0, 44.8, or 44.2, but never 43.00 or 42.50.

The same was the result on the 4x200 relay!

What Im saying is that often time, people that are better at the technical analysis might not be the one who can perform the skill. And that you have to be open minded and logically thinking to get the best.

In your brothers case you say he runs a 6.5 sec 55M time and a 10.80 sec 100M, I caught later these are fully automated. Good times.

You hope as we do that he’s not MAXED out.

You posted because if somehow you guys could get that 6.5 sec to 6.3 or 6.2 in one year of work and shave .2 or so off an already good 40 time its only going to be good for him. Another 4" or 5" of vertical jump, even if it took a year to notice and you where only reward with 2 or 3" for 6 months of hard work would be worth it.

SO we point out our observations.

Remember that 100M time that tie the world record from the jamaican sprinter earlier this year.

What did we all say, an unholy top end charge from 60M forward, probably putting out one of the highest measured “velocities” by a human being ever.

However I watched closely. The start and first 5 to 6 steps sucked for world class.

I had to clarify that, because that start and accelration for most of us here wouldve been outstanding.

I made my observations. It appeared that the start and first 4 or 5 steps where more of a stumble. And the guy was already playing catchup.

In retrospect Ben Johnson with what was considered at the time an “unorthodox” start was already nearly a full stride ahead after 4 steps!

That the 100M the 55M and even as short as the 40 yard dash is a sequence of acceleration “phases”. A “phase” might have been as short as 6 strides, and that even the most perfect human sprinter hasn’t put it all the way together yet.

That each phase would be consist of a trunk and head positioning. A foot strike point ( behind the body or slightly in front ). And leg turnover might even change from the middle 10-20 strides to the second 20-40 strides.

That it would’ve been impossible to put it all together without a 2nd set of eyes.

IE: without cameras, film, coaches, “unnatural” training techniques. We’d be much closer to Jesse Owens for top speed than we are today.

That between each phase is a transition.

That having one phase “IE popping up into sprinting position and stride for your top speed” is equivilent to running a funny car down the strip in its top gear only! No one would ever do it if given a choise.

My thing is this.

MOst of the progress which is being seeen is based off the success and failures of others before you. Its the fact we can study and improve upon people that came before us!

So yes. You guys have some improvement that can be made.

That the 6.5 second 55M can be improved to 6.3, or even 6.2.

That the work required and thoughtfullness is going to have to be better, harder and smarter than others trying to do the same thing.

That the training required to do so might be something unorthodox or something even old Charlie Francis threw away or hasn’t thought of because its “stupid”.

That some things are going to have to be done that are “unnatural”, Im not talking about roids - but plyos, weighted vests, parachutes, “unnatural” structured diet and recovery.

And that yes. Most of us will never put it all together, because its simply too paiinstaking, detailed and physically painfull.

Shoot for the moon, and if you fall short you should still make it into orbit.

And once again, I did not like the start, or first 4 or 5 steps after it. That the rate of turnover was high.

Compare to someone that is structured more like him. Not that they are 5’7", but 5’7" with similar leg length, trunk length, upper and lower leg lengths and even foot size.

And shoot small. If your bro could get 2" or 3" more out of each step, without trying harder or using more energy because he is physically stronger, more powerful and can manage his energy that much better he’d be faster.

Easiest right now is to start out with the start.

[quote]utfootball4 wrote:
we use to do stuff like depth jumps/drop but found that its very diffcult to do them when the speed volume is high like they are now. [/quote]

Well that’s what I mean. If the sprint volume is high, you probably don’t need the power phase because the sprint work is doing that. I guess what I’m trying to say is that football is a little more acceleration and a little less top speed.

So I guess more short sprint work would do pretty much the same thing. I don’t know how much speed or special endurance you are doing, but that could be extra volume not really neccessary for a football player. Ya get what I’m trying to say?

[quote]
i think i will drop the bsq on fri and do walking lunges 3-4sets and jump squats four weeks before his indoor season starts, what u think?[/quote]

I think that is probably a good idea, since he’s already got the back squat on Monday.

BTW, I hope you know that I’ll probably be stealing that bb circuit for my own uses and for some of the players I work with!