T Nation

3 On 4 Off First Time Cycle


#1

I'm wanting to start my first cycle I'm just really not sure which way to go about it. I'm one of these people that really needs to stay under the radar so to speak. I can't be ballooning out and putting on 15 pounds in 4 weeks due to certain reasons. I am quite happy to carry on with gradual gains of 3/4 pounds at a time. I'm at a weight plateau 190lbs been here for about a year now.

I was thinking about 3on/4off/3on/4off. Has anybody tried this approach first time round. I've got 3000mg of test p clomid and nolva and some anavar. Thankyou


#2

10 weeks test p, anavar in the last few weeks. PCT starting after last injection of tp. Using hcg, clomid and nolva. Eat more carbohydrates for gain mass, specially after your workout


#3

Speaking from personal experience –

I was in a similar situation and did four consecutive 2 on/5 off short cycles about a year ago. I was using one of the ‘cut cycle’ blends, consisting of test p/tren ace/mast p at 50mg each per ml. I injected ED for 12 days, then would wait 2-3 days before starting nolva for PCT (forget if it was 3 or 4 weeks). I would then be completely off for another week or two before starting up again.

At that dosing, I was taking about a gram total per week, with moderately increased caloric and macro intake. The first two ‘on’ periods, I gained 10-12 pounds each time. During the ‘off’ periods following those, I would lose about half. Third ‘on’ I gained only 6-8 (and lost half again when off), and the fourth one I barely gained any weight at all (but this was largely because I did not increase calories again).

So. Over the course of 21 weeks I gained and lost, gained and lost, until I ended up close to 20 pounds heavier than I started at. Gaining 10 pounds in 2 weeks can be noticeable, but not majorly so. Especially if people already know that you are a dedicated lifter.

Just making an assumption, but if you are military and are worried about throwing red flags leading to someone having you tested for use, you don’t really need to. Military urinalysis is solely focused on recreational and hard drug use, not on anabolics. Testing for anabolics is expensive, to the point that the only way you should have to worry about being tested is if you are popped for possession and they want to prove use as well (happened to a guy I worked with years ago - truth was, he was holding for someone else when it was found, and tested clean because it really wasn’t his). So if you are on a ship or living in the barracks, I would think hard about how/where you are going to hide it, and how to keep a roommate/headmate from catching you injecting or finding paraphernalia.

Anyways. Point being, short cycles (in spite of prevailing wisdom here) CAN be a viable way to cycle. True, you would probably see better gains if you just did a 10-12 week continuous cycle, but if you are trying to stay under the radar this would be a good way to go. Given what you are saying you have on hand, you would only be able to do 2-3 shorts at most with high enough dosages to gain. Using prop and anavar (assuming it’s real var) for short cycles probably isn’t the best plan. If you were able to inject 100mg ED along with 60-80mg daily of var, you might see some decent gains given the short time period. The rule with short cycles though (from what I have read) is to hit it hard from the beginning, meaning high doses (1gram per week or more).

If you can get ahold of some more prop and var (you didn’t say how much of that you have), then you could do a decent amount and should see some decent progress. I would also get some arimidex (or other AI). I don’t have much experience with var personally, but I’ve never heard of it having any estrogen control characteristics.


#4

Thanks for your reply. I’ve got 40x50 mg tabs of anavar was really hard to get that. Some people have told me it’s real var but underdosed more like 20mg so probably just use it for another time . I’ve got some arimidex on order and more test p so that’s not a problem. I was military but not anymore so that’s not reason lol.

Should I take the arimidex the whole time on even if it’s only 2 or 3 week cycles?
For pct nolva 40/20/20 wait another week then cycle again?
That has definitely helped me though thankyou.


#5

I can’t be doing long cycles like 10/12 weeks.


#6

I’m assuming you were planning on 500 mg testosterone propionate per week, as you have 3 g and are planning 6 weeks total use.

I’d use an aromatase inhibitor during the cycles if not knowing personal response. Many can use 500 mg/week testosterone without need of an anti-aromatase, but a significant fraction of users can get gyno from this.

If using Nolvadex as the SERM for PCT, I’d take 120 mg total on Day 1, for example 40 mg three times, and after than 20 mg/day for the remainder of two or three weeks. It could be discontinued at 2 weeks if having 100% confidence, judging by feeling, that your natural T production seemed fully returned. If not 100% confident, then another week. With such a short cycle, ordinarily 2 weeks would be sufficient.


#7

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
I’m assuming you were planning on 500 mg testosterone propionate per week, as you have 3 g and are planning 6 weeks total use.

I’d use an aromatase inhibitor during the cycles if not knowing personal response. Many can use 500 mg/week testosterone without need of an anti-aromatase, but a significant fraction of users can get gyno from this.

If using Nolvadex as the SERM for PCT, I’d take 120 mg total on Day 1, for example 40 mg three times, and after than 20 mg/day for the remainder of two or three weeks. It could be discontinued at 2 weeks if having 100% confidence, judging by feeling, that your natural T production seemed fully returned. If not 100% confident, then another week. With such a short cycle, ordinarily 2 weeks would be sufficient.

[/quote]

why not use the ai anyways for safety reasons? i mean in case im not prone to gyno would it be better to get away without using ai?

do you recommend hcg use during 500 test (during cycle) to afterwards aid in pct recovery?


#8

Yes, I 'd recommend using the AI for safety reasons. In the above, what I was trying to say, in some cases someone knows for a fact already, from experience, that he needs no AI with this kind of cycle, and in that case then it’s not necessary. As it’s your first cycle, I would use it.

In a 3 week cycle, HCG is completely unnecessary. Testicular function is maintained just fine without HCG over a period that short. Where HCG use during the cycle becomes important is with longer cycles. For an 8 week cycle it’s a nice little improvement to the cycle but for most is not actually necessary, by 12 weeks it becomes a very obvious difference for recovery in most cases and very preferably should be done, and much past that it becomes typically a near-necessity or actual necessity.

Three weeks, no need at all. There will be no detectable, if any, loss of testicular function in that time period.


#9

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Yes, I 'd recommend using the AI for safety reasons. In the above, what I was trying to say, in some cases someone knows for a fact already, from experience, that he needs no AI with this kind of cycle, and in that case then it’s not necessary. As it’s your first cycle, I would use it.

In a 3 week cycle, HCG is completely unnecessary. Testicular function is maintained just fine without HCG over a period that short. Where HCG use during the cycle becomes important is with longer cycles. For an 8 week cycle it’s a nice little improvement to the cycle but for most is not actually necessary, by 12 weeks it becomes a very obvious difference for recovery in most cases and very preferably should be done, and much past that it becomes typically a near-necessity or actual necessity.

Three weeks, no need at all. There will be no detectable, if any, loss of testicular function in that time period.[/quote]

What are your thoughts on starting HCG later in the cycle for longer cycles, say around week 8 in a 12 week cycle?


#10

That’s perfectly fine and works just as well.

If using only non-aromatizables, then it’s an advantage to run throughout, to maintain normal estradiol level.

Also, while unnecessary (testosterone dose could just be adjusted instead) using throughout gives a result about equivalent to using an extra 100-200 mg/week of testosterone.

Some just like doing it. It’s certainly not necessary: using at the end only is fine.


#11

Thanks Bill!


#12

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
That’s perfectly fine and works just as well.

If using only non-aromatizables, then it’s an advantage to run throughout, to maintain normal estradiol level.

Also, while unnecessary (testosterone dose could just be adjusted instead) using throughout gives a result about equivalent to using an extra 100-200 mg/week of testosterone.

Some just like doing it. It’s certainly not necessary: using at the end only is fine. [/quote]

Awesome / great info / help


#13

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
That’s perfectly fine and works just as well.

If using only non-aromatizables, then it’s an advantage to run throughout, to maintain normal estradiol level.

Also, while unnecessary (testosterone dose could just be adjusted instead) using throughout gives a result about equivalent to using an extra 100-200 mg/week of testosterone.

Some just like doing it. It’s certainly not necessary: using at the end only is fine. [/quote]

that’s what I do. A couple of weeks seems to be all I need to plump the plums back up


#14

If you read the sticky on cycles, there’s a great write up on 2 on 2 off cycles. They’re good for flying under the radar and you can basically cycle year round. Gains are slower but better than nothing.

I love long cycles and feel amazing for 8 weeks but taking 12 off in between (pct+time off) I lose everything I worked for. I might just go on TRT and do blast/cruise cycles but right now the 2 on 2 off work for me.

Protocol according to the sticky (if you’re too lazy to read it)
2 on, 2 off, 2 on, 2 off, 2 on, 3 off

Three weeks is where I really start to feel and see a jump but waiting 4 weeks to go back on is too long for me.


#15

Like I said, the 2 on/5 off worked good for me. I am doing a 12 week cycle right now, and may stay on test indefinitely afterward. If I do, I’m thinking a few short-blast tren runs per year will be fun.