T Nation

3 Months Since HCG Therapy, More?

hi Guys

This is a post/question, linked to my previous posts:
Well a month after completing my PCT for my 2nd cycle, i find that my oestrogen levels are high, my test levels are average/low, my prolactin level is slightly low, I still have acne and my lovely gains have dissipated.

Ive started Nolvadex to try and get my estogen levels right. My nuts havent gotten back fully to their normal size even though I did use HCG while on cycle. The HCG while on cycle was:
2000ius Monday, 1000ius Wednesday, 500ius Friday
1000ius Monday, 500ius Wednesday, 500ius Friday
250ius Monday, 250ius Wednesday, 250ius Friday

Its been about 3 months (if not slightly longer) since the above HCG therapy. Would it be safe to go on another HCG therapy and would a more nominal dosage be preferable (250ius a day or something)…also for how long and what amounts. Im assuming another 3 weeks. 250ius daily or every other day?

some help please.

thanks

Nolvadex increases estrogen levels, not decreases them.

ah ok that makes sense and probably why im still getting acne.

So from what I understand, Nolvadex binds to estrogen blocking the estrogen receptors thereby increasing free testosterone. Increase in free test = increase in estrogen?

ok so its a bit of a catch 22. On one hand i want to bring up my natural testosterone but on the other hand i want to reduce the estrogen in my body. How would I go about doing this? Also would it be safe to use HCG now to help get my nuts back (dosage suggestion?).

thanks Bill

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Nolvadex increases estrogen levels, not decreases them.[/quote]

Glad to help!

Nolvadex binds to estrogen receptors. In some tissues, the receptor is unactivated by the Nolvadex (tamoxifen) and so the Nolvadex, at moments when binding the receptor, blocks estrogen from acting.

In other tissues, Nolvadex actually activates the estrogen receptor and so behaves estrogenically.

This is unfortunately the case in the skin, which is why Nolvadex increases acne.

Its action in blocking the effect of estrogen in the hypothalamus can and usually does result in increased LH production, which stimulates greater testosterone production.

Unfortunately, along with greater T product comes higher estrogen production, as there is more T available for the body to convert to estrogen.

To control estrogen levels, an aromatase inhibitor (AI; also called anti-aromatase) is needed.

While dosages should be checked with blood testing, a reasonable starting point is about 0.36 mg letrozole per day, or about 0.72 mg every other day. This is an amount corresponding to taking a total of 2.5 mg per week.

Glad to help!

Nolvadex binds to estrogen receptors. In some tissues, the receptor is unactivated by the Nolvadex (tamoxifen) and so the Nolvadex, at moments when binding the receptor, blocks estrogen from acting.

In other tissues, Nolvadex actually activates the estrogen receptor and so behaves estrogenically.

This is unfortunately the case in the skin, which is why Nolvadex increases acne.

Its action in blocking the effect of estrogen in the hypothalamus can and usually does result in increased LH production, which stimulates greater testosterone production.

Unfortunately, along with greater T product comes higher estrogen production, as there is more T available for the body to convert to estrogen.

To control estrogen levels, an aromatase inhibitor (AI; also called anti-aromatase) is needed.

While dosages should be checked with blood testing, a reasonable starting point is about 0.36 mg letrozole per day, or about 0.72 mg every other day. This is an amount corresponding to taking a total of 2.5 mg per week.

On the HCG, if not taking care of the high estrogen level, HCG will probably push it yet higher via increasing testosterone.

I’d suggest taking a first step of getting estrogen level under control, and then if desired trying another HCG cycle.

However if you wanted to do both at the same time that would be doable.

great info…i always seem to get confused with SERMS and AI’s … I always thought Clomid and Nolvadex were basically the same except with Nolva being stronger…I obviously have gotten confused with all the info. That and i tend to research things before doing a cycle but then after the cycle I have forgotten most of the stuff since im not working with it regularly.

The AI i used before was Arimidex? Would Arimidex be effective here? How long should I use the AI? Im currently on 20mg of Nolva daily…should i stop that immediately and then start the AI or what would be the best course of action?

Also what are your thoughts on HCG …I used it during the cycle but my nuts havent come back fully…should i use it again at lower dosages? Not much experience with this…your knowledge and advice would be appreciated.

Anyway, I Must say I like the way you explain things, simple and to the point. Very helpful. Thanks again Bill.

Regards

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Glad to help!

Nolvadex binds to estrogen receptors. In some tissues, the receptor is unactivated by the Nolvadex (tamoxifen) and so the Nolvadex, at moments when binding the receptor, blocks estrogen from acting.

In other tissues, Nolvadex actually activates the estrogen receptor and so behaves estrogenically.

This is unfortunately the case in the skin, which is why Nolvadex increases acne.

Its action in blocking the effect of estrogen in the hypothalamus can and usually does result in increased LH production, which stimulates greater testosterone production.

Unfortunately, along with greater T product comes higher estrogen production, as there is more T available for the body to convert to estrogen.

To control estrogen levels, an aromatase inhibitor (AI; also called anti-aromatase) is needed.

While dosages should be checked with blood testing, a reasonable starting point is about 0.36 mg letrozole per day, or about 0.72 mg every other day. This is an amount corresponding to taking a total of 2.5 mg per week.[/quote]

ok thats a good suggestion. Makes sense.

Ive heard of a 250iu protocol for HCG as opposed to the blitzing I did on cycle…i head that is preferable as blitzing can result in desensitizing the laydic cells?
should it be 250iu every day or every other day for 3 weeks?

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
On the HCG, if not taking care of the high estrogen level, HCG will probably push it yet higher via increasing testosterone.

I’d suggest taking a first step of getting estrogen level under control, and then if desired trying another HCG cycle.

However if you wanted to do both at the same time that would be doable.[/quote]

A total of about 875-1750 IU per week is a good range. This is best divided to daily, every other day, or 3x/week dosing.

The low end of that range usually provides good results and probably is less suppressive to LH production. The high end generally provides a somewhat larger increase. The testes are probably going about all-out, for their individual capacity, for T production at that dosage point. Using yet more doesn’t seem to accomplish any more.

There is a point to frontloading HCG if the purpose is not merely avoiding long-term testicular atrophy but also getting T increase out of it, but the amount of frontload needed is not large. I only use 500 IU for the first injection, as the entire frontload.

perfect! Thanks that clarifies the HCG protocol.

Lastly just back to the AI.

Since i started Nolvadex for the last 4 days …should I just stop it and start the AI (Arimidex) and what dose of Arimidex would be preferable? Ive read that Nolvadex takes 14 days to clear ones system…and renders Arimidex less effective. Just wondering if its advisable to stop the Nolva and immediately start the Arimidex or should i wait 14 days after stopping the Nolva? Would i need to taper the Nolva since ive only been 4 days on?

I promise the above is my last question on the topic :slight_smile: thanks Bill.

Nolvadex doesn’t affect Arimidex. And there is no need to taper the Nolvadex. It can simply be discontinued.

0.5 mg every other day is a reasonable starting dose. The corresponding frontload – the amount to take only on the first day, to cause levels to quickly reach the level they will stabilize at with the ongoing dose – is 1.0 mg.

So in other words, 1.0 mg on the first day of Arimidex use, the next day is off, the day after that is 0.5 mg, the next day is off; and the 0.5 mg every-other-day protocol continues after that.

The two-week point would be a good time to check estradiol levels and adjust dose if necessary.

If you have further questions, by no means feel bound by the above promise! Further questions wouldn’t be slightest problem in any way, shape, or form.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Nolvadex doesn’t affect Arimidex. And there is no need to taper the Nolvadex. It can simply be discontinued.

0.5 mg every other day is a reasonable starting dose. The corresponding frontload – the amount to take only on the first day, to cause levels to quickly reach the level they will stabilize at with the ongoing dose – is 1.0 mg.

So in other words, 1.0 mg on the first day of Arimidex use, the next day is off, the day after that is 0.5 mg, the next day is off; and the 0.5 mg every-other-day protocol continues after that.

The two-week point would be a good time to check estradiol levels and adjust dose if necessary.

If you have further questions, by no means feel bound by the above promise! Further questions wouldn’t be slightest problem in any way, shape, or form.[/quote]

Brilliant! Thanks allot Bill. Really need to get my levels right, get rid of the acne and then once i have normalized…try another cycle but a shorter one. These longer ones really mess up ones levels, especially if one is not that experienced with cycling.

Your advice is greatly appreciated. Will start the AI tomorrow and will keep you posted with my progress.

Thanks again!

Sure thing! :slight_smile:

hi Bill,

yep you were right - im back with another question :slight_smile:
Ok so the HCG is helping me get my nuts back - yay for that. Estrogen seems to be under control but im still getting acne. Ive read that Deca although has very few sides…does shut one down quite drastically and the acne from Deca can last for months even up to 13 months at times. (well thats what i read at least).

Now at the end of the HCG im doing it would have been 3 months post cycle (from a 3 month cycle where after the 3 months …it took me 2 months to attempt the test taper)…my test levels seem ok (ive never had superman test levels…pretty average levels). Since my levels seems pretty ok, would it be safe to go on another cycle. I plan on doing an 8 week EQ and TestE cycle with Dbol in the first 2 weeks to kick start it. Ive been thinking around 300mg EQ, 600mg Test E and 30mg Dbol. PCT im going to do Clomid and Nolva, with Growth Hormone (do you think i should throw an AI in there…i think it might be overkill?)…

thanks bill, your advice is always great and appreciated.

bill, first of all, congratulations, ive read all your posts and you are really willing to help everyone.

i have almost the same problem as you, cybercom (without the elevated E). just wanted to know if the hcg protocol helped you get your testes back to normal, and how many weeks did you use the hcg? at what doses? with or without an AI?

as i read in another BR post, only when you are fully recovered with your T production you can attemp to do another cycle. so, did you do 3 weeks of hcg with an AI and then jumped right back to another AS cycle? (you were off almost 3 months before the hcg didnt you?)

all my bloodwork is within normal range, test is same as before cycle, but testes are not as full as before. been off for almost 3 months now, any sugestions on hcg protocol to restore testicle size before doing another cycle?
thank you in advance for your answer, Bill or cybercom!!