T Nation

3 Month Plateau


#21

[quote]56x11 wrote:

[quote]bwilliamsr89 wrote:

[quote]56x11 wrote:

[quote]Zooguido wrote:
Hi, guys. Been stuck between 225-235 for the past 3, 4ish months. I started lifting again in December after a hip injury and ballooned from 190 to 220 in a month. Steadily made progress up to 230ish, and I’ve been stalled for quite some time.

I’m 6’9", 23 years old. Current lifting goes as such and has been this way for the past 7 months without missing a day lifting (basically KingBeef’s routine from the past sticky in the BB thread with a few modifications):

Sunday: Chest/Calves
Incline DB: 35x10, 45x10, 55x10, 65x8 (sometimes 10), 75x6-8.
Flat BB: 155x8, 185x8, 205x6
Decline DB: 60x8, 70x8, 80x8
Standing Calves: 3 sets of 90x12(3s hold at top, controlled stop at bottom)
Seated Calves: 3 sets of 90x12(3s hold at top, controlled stop at bottom)

Monday: Back
Wide Grip Pull Ups: 40-50ish in under ten minutes, no weight right now
DB Rows: 80x10, 90x10, 100x8, 110x6-8
Neutral Grip Lat PullDowns: 120x8, 140x8, 160x6
Seated Straight Bar Rows: 90x8,100x8,110x8

  1. Incline DB Front Raises: 20x15x4
  2. Incline DB Shrugs: 50x8x3 (3s hold at peak contraction of each rep)
    External Rotations: 3x20

Threw in 1 and 2 for mid/lower trap growth, as mine are lacking (all of me is lacking, but these in particular lol).

Tuesday: Legs
Leg Press: 2ppsx12,3ppsx12,4ppsx12,5ppsx12,6ppsx12,7ppsx10,8ppsx8
Glute Raises: 30,30,30,30
Squats: 225x8,245x8,265x6
Deads: 225x5,275x5,315x5,365x5, sometimes 405 for reps if 365 felt good.
1a. Leg Curls: 70x12,90x12,110x12,130x8 (3 second negatives on all reps)
1b. Leg Extensions: 90x12, 110x12, 130x12, 150x12 (3 second negatives on all reps)

Wednesday: Arms Supersets

  1. Straight Bar Tricep Pushdowns: 50x10, 60x10, 70x10, 80x10, 90x10
  2. Pinwheel Curls: 20x10, 25x10, 30x10, 35x10, 40x10
  3. Skullcrushers: 75x8, 95x8, 115x6-8
  4. Preacher Curls: 75x8, 85x8, 95x6-8
  5. French Presses: 80x10, 90x10, 100x10, 110x6-8
  6. Alternating Standing Biseb Curls: 25x10, 30x10, 35x10, 40x10

Thursday: Shoulders
OH DB Press: 30x10, 40x10, 50x10, 60x8, 70x6-8
Cable Lateral Raises: 25x12, 30x12, 35x12
DB Lateral Raises: 15x12, 20x12, 25x12
Rear Delt Machine Flies: 60x15, 70x15, 80x15
Cable Crosses: 20x30, 30x20-30, 40x15-20
Shrugs: 95x12, 105x12, 115x12, 135x12 (3s hold at peak contraction)
External rotations: 20, 20, 20

Diet is as such:

Meal 1, between 830-930am: 18oz greek yogurt:
50g protein, 510 cals

Meal 2, between 11-12: Rice w/ 3 tbsp olive oil and 2 slices of swiss cheese cooked in + small salad:
600 cals/18g protein from rice, 140 cals/12g protein from cheese, 360 cals from olive oil

Preworkout snack, between 1-2:
protein bar: 30g protein, 390 cals
BCAA’s

Post Workout Shake, between 3-4:
24g protein, 140 cals

Meal 3, between 5-7: 3/4 Box of Pasta, 8 oz sauteed chicken breast, small salad:
1400 cals, 100g protein

Meal 4: 2 Servings of Pasta, 6 oz Greek yogurt:
560 cals, 30g protein

I also have a sweet tooth, so I’m usually constantly snacking on some sort of candy (reeses, heath, lol… consistently adds up to ~400 cals from there):

Total Cals: 3974 + (400 from candy [not sure if this is even relevant])
Total Protein: 264g

Also taking: Fish Oil, Creatine, Probiotics.

I was basically wondering what I could do to push past this plateau. Do I need more quality protein? More calories? Finding a new mode of progression? New routine? I’ll post pics in the comment right below this, for reference. My bf% is quite low, despite like 50% of my diet being carbs lol.

In terms of my lifts, progress has been coming where it matters on squats and deads, but bench and overhead press have stalled. Rows are progressing, but slowly. I can do unassisted pull-ups now as of the past week. Wide grip. Never been able to do that before.

I might just be obsessing over the scale, but I feel like my bodyweight should probably be going up if i’m attempting to “bulk”.

Really appreciate the insight any of you could provide. I’m so sorry for writing so much. Hah.[/quote]

It will take longer for you to fill out with quality mass. However, once you do, you will be that much more impressive (just look at side-by-side photos of Arnold and Franco in their prime). So use that as one of your motivators.

Contrary to what another poster stated, your programming can be improved for your goals - which, presumably, is hypertrophy and not athletic performance.

I’ll just comment on your Sunday:Chest/Calves routine for now because that’s all the time and inclination I have right now (your other days can be improved upon as well). You can take my advice or leave it. No harm, no foul if you disagree.

  1. Ditch the bb bench. Since you’re not a powerlifter, there are better options - especially for someone at your height. This is the single biggest flaw, IMO, that I see for your chest day.

[/quote]

I agree with some of what you said, but there is nothing wrong with the bb bench if it suits you. Learn to bench with your chest, and its a great movement. You referenced Arnold, not that I’m a fan of him or anything, but I do believe the bb bench was one of, if not THE, reason his chest developement was great. Same with Surge Nubret, who also had a phenomenal chest. And personally, I feel it in my chest more with bb bench than dumbells. Wouldnt it be better to help the OP figure out whats best for HIM instead of speaking in absolutes?[/quote]

  1. I referenced Arnold to give an example of, when all things are equal (or close), the taller muscular man simply looks more impressive than a shorter muscular man. The OP states he is 6’9"; people at this height will fill out at a slower rate, generally speaking. So I wanted the OP to make sure he stays patient and know it’s a long road he’s on.

  2. Speaking of that long road, I’ll state an obvious rule because so many seem to forget it. That rule is: do everything within reason to stay injury free. Yes, people can (and often should) train around injuries. But it’s better to stay injury free in the first place. People of the OP’s height have a higher chance of injury utilizing a bb bench. And the OP gave every indication that he is primarily interested in hypertrophy above all else. For this reason, I strongly recommended the db floor press to replace the bb bench.

This is not an “abolute” as you accuse of me of; I am hedging the odds in the OP’s favor as much as possible given what he brings to the table and his goals.

You mentioned Serge Nubret. He is actually one of my favorite physiques and his pec development is one of the best all time, IMO. However, for every Serge, there are countless other trainees for whom the standard bb bench is less than optimal for pec hypertrophy (if that is the primary goal).

Also, if you re-read my original reply to the OP, I actually mention the guillotine press, which is a variation on the bb bench. In my reply I specifically state the following:

" You’ll hear people talk about the guillotine press and how it’s great for pec hypertrophy. I don’t disagree. However, the guillotine press is an advanced movement and you should hold off on it for now (should you choose to incorporate this down the road, that’s up to you)."

As you can see, I advised the OP that a variation on a bb bench can be effective for hypertrophy and it’s an option that he may want to explore in the future. So again, you’re incorrect in accusing me speaking in absolutes. Or you misinterpreted what I wrote.

Now go back and re-read the very first post by the OP. In it, he specifically mentions the following: “…bench and overhead press have stalled.” I don’t know (nor do I care) how you train, but if a beginner lifter comes to me for advice and tells me that he’s plateaued on a certain movement, I have him do a variation on that movement.

If an advanced lifter has plateaued on a lift, one can debate on this; some coaches will argue that more focused work on that same lift is the cure. This is another topic.

The OP gave every indication that he is relatively new to this game. Beginners who are training on their own (as in no direct supervision by a skilled and experienced coach) are asking for trouble if they continue to grind away on a lift in which his morphology makes the lift sub-optimal AND (by his own admission) he has stalled.

[/quote]

“ditch the bb bench” seems like an absolute to me. Same with, “there are better options”. The OP gave no inclination that the bench was a bad movement for him, or that it made him injury prone. All I said was, let him figure out what’s best for him. Your assuming for him, that its a bad movement, and “there are better options”.

And his weight is the biggest factor. He needs to eat more. Not change every exercise that stalls. You can change reps/sets/exercise order without getting rid of a time proven mass builder like the bench, especially if it doesn’t aggravate his shoulders or anything. Db floor press is a poor substitute for a full Rom bench imo. No stretch in the chest. All I’m saying is. Don’t throw.the baby out with the bath water.


#22

[quote]bwilliamsr89 wrote:

[quote]56x11 wrote:

[quote]bwilliamsr89 wrote:

[quote]56x11 wrote:

[quote]Zooguido wrote:
Hi, guys. Been stuck between 225-235 for the past 3, 4ish months. I started lifting again in December after a hip injury and ballooned from 190 to 220 in a month. Steadily made progress up to 230ish, and I’ve been stalled for quite some time.

I’m 6’9", 23 years old. Current lifting goes as such and has been this way for the past 7 months without missing a day lifting (basically KingBeef’s routine from the past sticky in the BB thread with a few modifications):

Sunday: Chest/Calves
Incline DB: 35x10, 45x10, 55x10, 65x8 (sometimes 10), 75x6-8.
Flat BB: 155x8, 185x8, 205x6
Decline DB: 60x8, 70x8, 80x8
Standing Calves: 3 sets of 90x12(3s hold at top, controlled stop at bottom)
Seated Calves: 3 sets of 90x12(3s hold at top, controlled stop at bottom)

Monday: Back
Wide Grip Pull Ups: 40-50ish in under ten minutes, no weight right now
DB Rows: 80x10, 90x10, 100x8, 110x6-8
Neutral Grip Lat PullDowns: 120x8, 140x8, 160x6
Seated Straight Bar Rows: 90x8,100x8,110x8

  1. Incline DB Front Raises: 20x15x4
  2. Incline DB Shrugs: 50x8x3 (3s hold at peak contraction of each rep)
    External Rotations: 3x20

Threw in 1 and 2 for mid/lower trap growth, as mine are lacking (all of me is lacking, but these in particular lol).

Tuesday: Legs
Leg Press: 2ppsx12,3ppsx12,4ppsx12,5ppsx12,6ppsx12,7ppsx10,8ppsx8
Glute Raises: 30,30,30,30
Squats: 225x8,245x8,265x6
Deads: 225x5,275x5,315x5,365x5, sometimes 405 for reps if 365 felt good.
1a. Leg Curls: 70x12,90x12,110x12,130x8 (3 second negatives on all reps)
1b. Leg Extensions: 90x12, 110x12, 130x12, 150x12 (3 second negatives on all reps)

Wednesday: Arms Supersets

  1. Straight Bar Tricep Pushdowns: 50x10, 60x10, 70x10, 80x10, 90x10
  2. Pinwheel Curls: 20x10, 25x10, 30x10, 35x10, 40x10
  3. Skullcrushers: 75x8, 95x8, 115x6-8
  4. Preacher Curls: 75x8, 85x8, 95x6-8
  5. French Presses: 80x10, 90x10, 100x10, 110x6-8
  6. Alternating Standing Biseb Curls: 25x10, 30x10, 35x10, 40x10

Thursday: Shoulders
OH DB Press: 30x10, 40x10, 50x10, 60x8, 70x6-8
Cable Lateral Raises: 25x12, 30x12, 35x12
DB Lateral Raises: 15x12, 20x12, 25x12
Rear Delt Machine Flies: 60x15, 70x15, 80x15
Cable Crosses: 20x30, 30x20-30, 40x15-20
Shrugs: 95x12, 105x12, 115x12, 135x12 (3s hold at peak contraction)
External rotations: 20, 20, 20

Diet is as such:

Meal 1, between 830-930am: 18oz greek yogurt:
50g protein, 510 cals

Meal 2, between 11-12: Rice w/ 3 tbsp olive oil and 2 slices of swiss cheese cooked in + small salad:
600 cals/18g protein from rice, 140 cals/12g protein from cheese, 360 cals from olive oil

Preworkout snack, between 1-2:
protein bar: 30g protein, 390 cals
BCAA’s

Post Workout Shake, between 3-4:
24g protein, 140 cals

Meal 3, between 5-7: 3/4 Box of Pasta, 8 oz sauteed chicken breast, small salad:
1400 cals, 100g protein

Meal 4: 2 Servings of Pasta, 6 oz Greek yogurt:
560 cals, 30g protein

I also have a sweet tooth, so I’m usually constantly snacking on some sort of candy (reeses, heath, lol… consistently adds up to ~400 cals from there):

Total Cals: 3974 + (400 from candy [not sure if this is even relevant])
Total Protein: 264g

Also taking: Fish Oil, Creatine, Probiotics.

I was basically wondering what I could do to push past this plateau. Do I need more quality protein? More calories? Finding a new mode of progression? New routine? I’ll post pics in the comment right below this, for reference. My bf% is quite low, despite like 50% of my diet being carbs lol.

In terms of my lifts, progress has been coming where it matters on squats and deads, but bench and overhead press have stalled. Rows are progressing, but slowly. I can do unassisted pull-ups now as of the past week. Wide grip. Never been able to do that before.

I might just be obsessing over the scale, but I feel like my bodyweight should probably be going up if i’m attempting to “bulk”.

Really appreciate the insight any of you could provide. I’m so sorry for writing so much. Hah.[/quote]

It will take longer for you to fill out with quality mass. However, once you do, you will be that much more impressive (just look at side-by-side photos of Arnold and Franco in their prime). So use that as one of your motivators.

Contrary to what another poster stated, your programming can be improved for your goals - which, presumably, is hypertrophy and not athletic performance.

I’ll just comment on your Sunday:Chest/Calves routine for now because that’s all the time and inclination I have right now (your other days can be improved upon as well). You can take my advice or leave it. No harm, no foul if you disagree.

  1. Ditch the bb bench. Since you’re not a powerlifter, there are better options - especially for someone at your height. This is the single biggest flaw, IMO, that I see for your chest day.

[/quote]

I agree with some of what you said, but there is nothing wrong with the bb bench if it suits you. Learn to bench with your chest, and its a great movement. You referenced Arnold, not that I’m a fan of him or anything, but I do believe the bb bench was one of, if not THE, reason his chest developement was great. Same with Surge Nubret, who also had a phenomenal chest. And personally, I feel it in my chest more with bb bench than dumbells. Wouldnt it be better to help the OP figure out whats best for HIM instead of speaking in absolutes?[/quote]

  1. I referenced Arnold to give an example of, when all things are equal (or close), the taller muscular man simply looks more impressive than a shorter muscular man. The OP states he is 6’9"; people at this height will fill out at a slower rate, generally speaking. So I wanted the OP to make sure he stays patient and know it’s a long road he’s on.

  2. Speaking of that long road, I’ll state an obvious rule because so many seem to forget it. That rule is: do everything within reason to stay injury free. Yes, people can (and often should) train around injuries. But it’s better to stay injury free in the first place. People of the OP’s height have a higher chance of injury utilizing a bb bench. And the OP gave every indication that he is primarily interested in hypertrophy above all else. For this reason, I strongly recommended the db floor press to replace the bb bench.

This is not an “abolute” as you accuse of me of; I am hedging the odds in the OP’s favor as much as possible given what he brings to the table and his goals.

You mentioned Serge Nubret. He is actually one of my favorite physiques and his pec development is one of the best all time, IMO. However, for every Serge, there are countless other trainees for whom the standard bb bench is less than optimal for pec hypertrophy (if that is the primary goal).

Also, if you re-read my original reply to the OP, I actually mention the guillotine press, which is a variation on the bb bench. In my reply I specifically state the following:

" You’ll hear people talk about the guillotine press and how it’s great for pec hypertrophy. I don’t disagree. However, the guillotine press is an advanced movement and you should hold off on it for now (should you choose to incorporate this down the road, that’s up to you)."

As you can see, I advised the OP that a variation on a bb bench can be effective for hypertrophy and it’s an option that he may want to explore in the future. So again, you’re incorrect in accusing me speaking in absolutes. Or you misinterpreted what I wrote.

Now go back and re-read the very first post by the OP. In it, he specifically mentions the following: “…bench and overhead press have stalled.” I don’t know (nor do I care) how you train, but if a beginner lifter comes to me for advice and tells me that he’s plateaued on a certain movement, I have him do a variation on that movement.

If an advanced lifter has plateaued on a lift, one can debate on this; some coaches will argue that more focused work on that same lift is the cure. This is another topic.

The OP gave every indication that he is relatively new to this game. Beginners who are training on their own (as in no direct supervision by a skilled and experienced coach) are asking for trouble if they continue to grind away on a lift in which his morphology makes the lift sub-optimal AND (by his own admission) he has stalled.

[/quote]

“ditch the bb bench” seems like an absolute to me. Same with, “there are better options”. The OP gave no inclination that the bench was a bad movement for him, or that it made him injury prone. All I said was, let him figure out what’s best for him. Your assuming for him, that its a bad movement, and “there are better options”.

And his weight is the biggest factor. He needs to eat more. Not change every exercise that stalls. You can change reps/sets/exercise order without getting rid of a time proven mass builder like the bench, especially if it doesn’t aggravate his shoulders or anything. Db floor press is a poor substitute for a full Rom bench imo. No stretch in the chest. All I’m saying is. Don’t throw.the baby out with the bath water.
[/quote]

You are reading too much into what I wrote. It is clear that you like the bb bench and you give every indication that it’s working for you.

Did I say, ditch the bb bench forever? No.

Your first response indicated that you simply mis-read my advice to the OP and I took the time to clarify.

At this point, you’re giving some strong indications that you’re just looking for an internet argument.


#23

[quote]bwilliamsr89 wrote:

[quote]56x11 wrote:

[quote]bwilliamsr89 wrote:

[quote]56x11 wrote:

[quote]Zooguido wrote:
Hi, guys. Been stuck between 225-235 for the past 3, 4ish months. I started lifting again in December after a hip injury and ballooned from 190 to 220 in a month. Steadily made progress up to 230ish, and I’ve been stalled for quite some time.

I’m 6’9", 23 years old. Current lifting goes as such and has been this way for the past 7 months without missing a day lifting (basically KingBeef’s routine from the past sticky in the BB thread with a few modifications):

Sunday: Chest/Calves
Incline DB: 35x10, 45x10, 55x10, 65x8 (sometimes 10), 75x6-8.
Flat BB: 155x8, 185x8, 205x6
Decline DB: 60x8, 70x8, 80x8
Standing Calves: 3 sets of 90x12(3s hold at top, controlled stop at bottom)
Seated Calves: 3 sets of 90x12(3s hold at top, controlled stop at bottom)

Monday: Back
Wide Grip Pull Ups: 40-50ish in under ten minutes, no weight right now
DB Rows: 80x10, 90x10, 100x8, 110x6-8
Neutral Grip Lat PullDowns: 120x8, 140x8, 160x6
Seated Straight Bar Rows: 90x8,100x8,110x8

  1. Incline DB Front Raises: 20x15x4
  2. Incline DB Shrugs: 50x8x3 (3s hold at peak contraction of each rep)
    External Rotations: 3x20

Threw in 1 and 2 for mid/lower trap growth, as mine are lacking (all of me is lacking, but these in particular lol).

Tuesday: Legs
Leg Press: 2ppsx12,3ppsx12,4ppsx12,5ppsx12,6ppsx12,7ppsx10,8ppsx8
Glute Raises: 30,30,30,30
Squats: 225x8,245x8,265x6
Deads: 225x5,275x5,315x5,365x5, sometimes 405 for reps if 365 felt good.
1a. Leg Curls: 70x12,90x12,110x12,130x8 (3 second negatives on all reps)
1b. Leg Extensions: 90x12, 110x12, 130x12, 150x12 (3 second negatives on all reps)

Wednesday: Arms Supersets

  1. Straight Bar Tricep Pushdowns: 50x10, 60x10, 70x10, 80x10, 90x10
  2. Pinwheel Curls: 20x10, 25x10, 30x10, 35x10, 40x10
  3. Skullcrushers: 75x8, 95x8, 115x6-8
  4. Preacher Curls: 75x8, 85x8, 95x6-8
  5. French Presses: 80x10, 90x10, 100x10, 110x6-8
  6. Alternating Standing Biseb Curls: 25x10, 30x10, 35x10, 40x10

Thursday: Shoulders
OH DB Press: 30x10, 40x10, 50x10, 60x8, 70x6-8
Cable Lateral Raises: 25x12, 30x12, 35x12
DB Lateral Raises: 15x12, 20x12, 25x12
Rear Delt Machine Flies: 60x15, 70x15, 80x15
Cable Crosses: 20x30, 30x20-30, 40x15-20
Shrugs: 95x12, 105x12, 115x12, 135x12 (3s hold at peak contraction)
External rotations: 20, 20, 20

Diet is as such:

Meal 1, between 830-930am: 18oz greek yogurt:
50g protein, 510 cals

Meal 2, between 11-12: Rice w/ 3 tbsp olive oil and 2 slices of swiss cheese cooked in + small salad:
600 cals/18g protein from rice, 140 cals/12g protein from cheese, 360 cals from olive oil

Preworkout snack, between 1-2:
protein bar: 30g protein, 390 cals
BCAA’s

Post Workout Shake, between 3-4:
24g protein, 140 cals

Meal 3, between 5-7: 3/4 Box of Pasta, 8 oz sauteed chicken breast, small salad:
1400 cals, 100g protein

Meal 4: 2 Servings of Pasta, 6 oz Greek yogurt:
560 cals, 30g protein

I also have a sweet tooth, so I’m usually constantly snacking on some sort of candy (reeses, heath, lol… consistently adds up to ~400 cals from there):

Total Cals: 3974 + (400 from candy [not sure if this is even relevant])
Total Protein: 264g

Also taking: Fish Oil, Creatine, Probiotics.

I was basically wondering what I could do to push past this plateau. Do I need more quality protein? More calories? Finding a new mode of progression? New routine? I’ll post pics in the comment right below this, for reference. My bf% is quite low, despite like 50% of my diet being carbs lol.

In terms of my lifts, progress has been coming where it matters on squats and deads, but bench and overhead press have stalled. Rows are progressing, but slowly. I can do unassisted pull-ups now as of the past week. Wide grip. Never been able to do that before.

I might just be obsessing over the scale, but I feel like my bodyweight should probably be going up if i’m attempting to “bulk”.

Really appreciate the insight any of you could provide. I’m so sorry for writing so much. Hah.[/quote]

It will take longer for you to fill out with quality mass. However, once you do, you will be that much more impressive (just look at side-by-side photos of Arnold and Franco in their prime). So use that as one of your motivators.

Contrary to what another poster stated, your programming can be improved for your goals - which, presumably, is hypertrophy and not athletic performance.

I’ll just comment on your Sunday:Chest/Calves routine for now because that’s all the time and inclination I have right now (your other days can be improved upon as well). You can take my advice or leave it. No harm, no foul if you disagree.

  1. Ditch the bb bench. Since you’re not a powerlifter, there are better options - especially for someone at your height. This is the single biggest flaw, IMO, that I see for your chest day.

[/quote]

I agree with some of what you said, but there is nothing wrong with the bb bench if it suits you. Learn to bench with your chest, and its a great movement. You referenced Arnold, not that I’m a fan of him or anything, but I do believe the bb bench was one of, if not THE, reason his chest developement was great. Same with Surge Nubret, who also had a phenomenal chest. And personally, I feel it in my chest more with bb bench than dumbells. Wouldnt it be better to help the OP figure out whats best for HIM instead of speaking in absolutes?[/quote]

  1. I referenced Arnold to give an example of, when all things are equal (or close), the taller muscular man simply looks more impressive than a shorter muscular man. The OP states he is 6’9"; people at this height will fill out at a slower rate, generally speaking. So I wanted the OP to make sure he stays patient and know it’s a long road he’s on.

  2. Speaking of that long road, I’ll state an obvious rule because so many seem to forget it. That rule is: do everything within reason to stay injury free. Yes, people can (and often should) train around injuries. But it’s better to stay injury free in the first place. People of the OP’s height have a higher chance of injury utilizing a bb bench. And the OP gave every indication that he is primarily interested in hypertrophy above all else. For this reason, I strongly recommended the db floor press to replace the bb bench.

This is not an “abolute” as you accuse of me of; I am hedging the odds in the OP’s favor as much as possible given what he brings to the table and his goals.

You mentioned Serge Nubret. He is actually one of my favorite physiques and his pec development is one of the best all time, IMO. However, for every Serge, there are countless other trainees for whom the standard bb bench is less than optimal for pec hypertrophy (if that is the primary goal).

Also, if you re-read my original reply to the OP, I actually mention the guillotine press, which is a variation on the bb bench. In my reply I specifically state the following:

" You’ll hear people talk about the guillotine press and how it’s great for pec hypertrophy. I don’t disagree. However, the guillotine press is an advanced movement and you should hold off on it for now (should you choose to incorporate this down the road, that’s up to you)."

As you can see, I advised the OP that a variation on a bb bench can be effective for hypertrophy and it’s an option that he may want to explore in the future. So again, you’re incorrect in accusing me speaking in absolutes. Or you misinterpreted what I wrote.

Now go back and re-read the very first post by the OP. In it, he specifically mentions the following: “…bench and overhead press have stalled.” I don’t know (nor do I care) how you train, but if a beginner lifter comes to me for advice and tells me that he’s plateaued on a certain movement, I have him do a variation on that movement.

If an advanced lifter has plateaued on a lift, one can debate on this; some coaches will argue that more focused work on that same lift is the cure. This is another topic.

The OP gave every indication that he is relatively new to this game. Beginners who are training on their own (as in no direct supervision by a skilled and experienced coach) are asking for trouble if they continue to grind away on a lift in which his morphology makes the lift sub-optimal AND (by his own admission) he has stalled.

[/quote]

“ditch the bb bench” seems like an absolute to me. Same with, “there are better options”. The OP gave no inclination that the bench was a bad movement for him, or that it made him injury prone. All I said was, let him figure out what’s best for him. Your assuming for him, that its a bad movement, and “there are better options”.

And his weight is the biggest factor. He needs to eat more. Not change every exercise that stalls. You can change reps/sets/exercise order without getting rid of a time proven mass builder like the bench, especially if it doesn’t aggravate his shoulders or anything. Db floor press is a poor substitute for a full Rom bench imo. No stretch in the chest. All I’m saying is. Don’t throw.the baby out with the bath water.
[/quote]

And one more thing. To let a beginner “figure out what’s best for him” on a lift with a significant injury rate is one of the most irresponsible things I’ve read in quite some time.


#24

I never said bench at all costs. You seem to be a big proponent of the floor press. Good for you. I’m not sure what’s led you to believe bench is so dangerous and injury inducing, but all I’m saying is, it could be misleading to tell someone a particular movement is bad for them, when you have no clue. Do what works for you. I’m neither for or against bench.


#25

[quote]bwilliamsr89 wrote:
I never said bench at all costs. You seem to be a big proponent of the floor press. Good for you. I’m not sure what’s led you to believe bench is so dangerous and injury inducing, but all I’m saying is, it could be misleading to tell someone a particular movement is bad for them, when you have no clue. Do what works for you. I’m neither for or against bench. [/quote]

Is it not common knowledge that barbell benching causes a fair amount of injuries?


#26

[quote]bwilliamsr89 wrote:
I never said bench at all costs. You seem to be a big proponent of the floor press. Good for you. I’m not sure what’s led you to believe bench is so dangerous and injury inducing, but all I’m saying is, it could be misleading to tell someone a particular movement is bad for them, when you have no clue. Do what works for you. I’m neither for or against bench.

I’m out.[/quote]

I am a proponent of the floor press for the OP AT THIS CURRENT STAGE in his training.

The OP specifically stated he has stalled in the bb bench. His morphology makes the bb bench a high-risk exercise. Hence my suggestion to him.

And yes, I actually do have a clue. In my very first post (which was a response to the OP), I told him that the advice I gave him was based on his goals, what he brings to the table, and many other factors which I do not take lightly. Those factors include an understanding of arthro and osteokinematics, the OPs morphology, extensive study into risk/reward ratios of the more common exercises, and experience training many who have suffered significant injuries from idiotic advice such as letting a beginner just figure things out for himself (this is what you said).

Congratulations. You just showed a lot of people what and who you are.


#27

[quote]RATTLEHEAD wrote:

[quote]bwilliamsr89 wrote:
I never said bench at all costs. You seem to be a big proponent of the floor press. Good for you. I’m not sure what’s led you to believe bench is so dangerous and injury inducing, but all I’m saying is, it could be misleading to tell someone a particular movement is bad for them, when you have no clue. Do what works for you. I’m neither for or against bench. [/quote]

Is it not common knowledge that barbell benching causes a fair amount of injuries?[/quote]

I always thought of injury from an exercise as something along the lines of programming( push:pull ratio, benching all the time, etc), technique, and individual biomechanics. Injury resulting from some combination of.the above. 2 out of 3 of those being controllable. I thought it was common knowledge that there is no such thing as a bad exercise, just certain people that shouldn’t perform them. Maybe I’m wrong, but I have never heard tall people should avoid benching, squat? Possibly, but not bench.


#28

Any reason why the BB floor press couldn’t substitute the BB press? Getting heavy dumbbells into position on the floor without a partner to assist you would be hard to do.


#29

Interesting discussion. Can anyone provide links to research demonstrating:

  1. the rate of injury for BB bench pressing is significantly higher than that of other common lifts, and/or
  2. for taller/longer limbed lifters, BB chest presses carry a higher risk of injury than do DB chest presses?

#30

[quote]EyeDentist wrote:
Interesting discussion. Can anyone provide links to research demonstrating:

  1. the rate of injury for BB bench pressing is significantly higher than that of other common lifts, and/or
  2. for taller/longer limbed lifters, BB chest presses carry a higher risk of injury than do DB chest presses?[/quote]

I would assume its around the same as squat dead clean and other big exercises. And I would suggest that most injuries result from pushing too hard. Everyone loves to bench, and its a common ego lift, “hey, whatcha bench?”. Bench having a much smaller learning curve than squat or dead, its easy for new gym goers to come in and see what they can put up on bench with more regularity than squat or dead. Despite more guys benching than other big lifts, its more often than not, going to be stupid training practices that bring about an injury.

I’m also curious to see any studies about taller folks benching. I know longer limbs make progress slower and things like bench and OH press a much weaker exercise than others.


#31

looking for a bit of a form critique for squats n deads. last week and the week before, my lower back felt a little off the day after leg day. and by “off”, i mean it was painful to pick up weights on arm day and shoulder day (the two days directly after leg day). the pain would be 95-99% gone 3-4 days after leg day, but then pop back up the day after the next leg day. i dropped weight yesterday in deads to focus on form. my back feels 100% fine today. i would guess poor form on deadlift is the culprit?

yesterday went like:
leg press: 12 x 2plate up to 7plate, then 10 x 8 plate (pr of sorts)
squats: 135 x 6, 225 x 8, 250 x 8, 275 x 8 (pr for reps)
deads: 135 x 5, 185 x 5, 225 x 5, 275 x 5, 315 x 5
bunch of accessory exercises

usually go up to 365 x 5. perhaps putting more effort into leg press/squats is fatiguing my lower back to the point where i can’t keep it absolutely neutral on the heavier sets, leading to lower back pain the next day?

any general form critique you guys can offer would be greatly appreciated. i realize the set of squats i got on camera was very subpar. they’re not usually that bad, but i figure it’s better to post a set of me at my worst and get pointers than post one of me at my best and get fewer suggestions.

thanks, guise.


#32

[quote]RATTLEHEAD wrote:

Is it not common knowledge that barbell benching causes a fair amount of injuries?[/quote]

For those of us within the profession who see, on a near weekly basis, someone who hurt themselves using misguided information, the answer to your question is, yes, it is common knowledge.

I won’t get into when the bb bench is appropriate and when it is not for the general population.

Instead I’ll reiterate and expand on why I recommended the OP take a break from bb benching.

By his own admission, he is relatively new to weight training and he was stalling on that particular lift. Because he trains by himself and therefore does not have an experienced person watching him, it would be dangerous for him to try and grind out an improvement on this lift.

Now, if an experienced lifter stalls on a particular movement, one can make the argument that he simply puts more focus on it. This is debatable and another topic all together. However, this wouldn’t apply to the OP because he currently lacks that level of expertise.

Something that should be so very obvious yet escapes many is that taller lifters such as the OP have longer arms.

Shocker, I know.

The longer radius/ulna (the two bones that make up the lower half of the arms) can often result in the following. In order for the bar to come close to the chest, there is usually a more pronounced forward migration of the humeral head within the glenoid fossa. When this happens, several potentially problematic scenarios arise. One of the more common is that the anterior aspect of the labrum (cartilage that covers the glenoid fossa) can be subject to premature wear and tear.

Now, one can argue that the taller lifter simply use a much wider grip. Well, this creates another set of potential issues at the shoulder. And even they did not (another debate entirely), one of the functions of the pectoralis major is adduction of the humerous. Just how much adduction can be achieved with the hands locked into a wide grip on a bar…?

The above are just a few examples as to why, back in June, I advised the OP to integrate dumb bell floor presses as well as variations on the push up - NOT as a permanent switch but as a way of cycling in different exercises so he can continue to make progress in his hypertrophy goals while hedging the safety odds in his favor.

If you (Rattlehead) want to follow up on this, start a thread in the Injury sub-forum.

The reason I prefer you take any particular questions there is because I do not have time and patience to suffer fools who think they know what’s going on. And people tend to be more respectful in the Injury forum.

In the 2 years I’ve been posting on at T-Nation, it never ceases to amaze me how the same damn pattern takes place. The chest-thumpers make comments that would be laughable if they weren’t so grotesquely misinformed. And when that injury takes place (it almost always does with such people), they find themselves in that special place in which they wake up every morning cursing their lives. Then they create ghost accounts to post questions. At least the ones with integrity post under their original user ID; I tip my hat to them. And the rest just lurk - too proud to admit they were wrong as they hope to find a thread started by someone else who has a similar injury.

Obviously, you’re smarter than this. Your posts prove it.

Therefore, if you want to follow up on this or any other subject related to injury-prevention, feel free to create a thread in the Injury forum. When I visit this site, that’s one of the sub forums I check. I typically visit about once a week.

I’ve read your progress report and greatly admire what you’re doing. I’ll be happy to contribute in any way I can to help you stay safe so you can continue to train hard.


#33

56x11, I think Rattlehead was actually supporting your position. Could be wrong tho.


#34

[quote]56x11 wrote:

[quote]RATTLEHEAD wrote:

Is it not common knowledge that barbell benching causes a fair amount of injuries?[/quote]

For those of us within the profession who see, on a near weekly basis, someone who hurt themselves using misguided information, the answer to your question is, yes, it is common knowledge.

I won’t get into when the bb bench is appropriate and when it is not for the general population.

Instead I’ll reiterate and expand on why I recommended the OP take a break from bb benching.

By his own admission, he is relatively new to weight training and he was stalling on that particular lift. Because he trains by himself and therefore does not have an experienced person watching him, it would be dangerous for him to try and grind out an improvement on this lift.

Now, if an experienced lifter stalls on a particular movement, one can make the argument that he simply puts more focus on it. This is debatable and another topic all together. However, this wouldn’t apply to the OP because he currently lacks that level of expertise.

Something that should be so very obvious yet escapes many is that taller lifters such as the OP have longer arms.

Shocker, I know.

The longer radius/ulna (the two bones that make up the lower half of the arms) can often result in the following. In order for the bar to come close to the chest, there is usually a more pronounced forward migration of the humeral head within the glenoid fossa. When this happens, several potentially problematic scenarios arise. One of the more common is that the anterior aspect of the labrum (cartilage that covers the glenoid fossa) can be subject to premature wear and tear.

Now, one can argue that the taller lifter simply use a much wider grip. Well, this creates another set of potential issues at the shoulder. And even they did not (another debate entirely), one of the functions of the pectoralis major is adduction of the humerous. Just how much adduction can be achieved with the hands locked into a wide grip on a bar…?

The above are just a few examples as to why, back in June, I advised the OP to integrate dumb bell floor presses as well as variations on the push up - NOT as a permanent switch but as a way of cycling in different exercises so he can continue to make progress in his hypertrophy goals while hedging the safety odds in his favor.

If you (Rattlehead) want to follow up on this, start a thread in the Injury sub-forum.

The reason I prefer you take any particular questions there is because I do not have time and patience to suffer fools who think they know what’s going on. And people tend to be more respectful in the Injury forum.

In the 2 years I’ve been posting on at T-Nation, it never ceases to amaze me how the same damn pattern takes place. The chest-thumpers make comments that would be laughable if they weren’t so grotesquely misinformed. And when that injury takes place (it almost always does with such people), they find themselves in that special place in which they wake up every morning cursing their lives. Then they create ghost accounts to post questions. At least the ones with integrity post under their original user ID; I tip my hat to them. And the rest just lurk - too proud to admit they were wrong as they hope to find a thread started by someone else who has a similar injury.

Obviously, you’re smarter than this. Your posts prove it.

Therefore, if you want to follow up on this or any other subject related to injury-prevention, feel free to create a thread in the Injury forum. When I visit this site, that’s one of the sub forums I check. I typically visit about once a week.

I’ve read your progress report and greatly admire what you’re doing. I’ll be happy to contribute in any way I can to help you stay safe so you can continue to train hard.

[/quote]

Thanks for the reply!

Will create a thread in the injury forum later, interested to here the thoughts!