T Nation

2x a Day, High Frequent Training Scheme


#1

CT -

I'm in a transition period currently where I literally have ample free time on hands that I'd like to put into training. Recovery, nutrition, stress, etc. are good. Basically an amateur weightlifter schedule with no prospect of getting paid :slight_smile:

What tweak/version of the layer system could I use to train twice a day? Perhaps skill work AM - notably power clean and press - and the more intense "main session" PM? HFS style work in the morning?

I know back in the day you'd suggested training up to 3x a day (30 min session each) for optimal gains but it was of course with a different program. Given that I pretty much desire to be in the gym twice a day and now have the opportunity to do so, how can I apply it to make optimal changes to physique?

I was reading Perryman's "Squat every day" ebook yesterday and thought of how ncely your style of training meshed with many of the cited old-school lifters, doing high sets, low reps, focus on core movements. And some of those guys, including Bulgarian team, were training obscene hours every day, high frequency, massive poundages demonstrating it can be done. Granted, they were strength focused (I'm looking for physique gains) so would really appreciate your guidance here. Thank you.


#2

I am training twice a day right now. One main workout (strength layer style) and one technique session on the olympic lifts. Right now I began working on the muscle snatch and muscle clean & press (continuous clean & press)… the later being basicaly a muscle snatch with a clean grip.

I might also do power snatches, cleans, jerks, power jerks… any olympic lifting move really. I normally keep those sessions to 1 or 2 exercises for a total of about 30-45 minutes.


#3

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
I am training twice a day right now. One main workout (strength layer style) and one technique session on the olympic lifts. Right now I began working on the muscle snatch and muscle clean & press (continuous clean & press)… the later being basicaly a muscle snatch with a clean grip.

I might also do power snatches, cleans, jerks, power jerks… any olympic lifting move really. I normally keep those sessions to 1 or 2 exercises for a total of about 30-45 minutes.[/quote]

Ok awesome! Preference for which is AM/PM? And I’m assuming technique work is working up to/waveloading around a “comfortable training maximum” of 3-5 reps? Even more critical to avoid excessive grinding or even “intensity” (mental physcing, strength layer vs. HDL layers, etc.)? Thanks


#4

[quote]-Sigil- wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
I am training twice a day right now. One main workout (strength layer style) and one technique session on the olympic lifts. Right now I began working on the muscle snatch and muscle clean & press (continuous clean & press)… the later being basicaly a muscle snatch with a clean grip.

I might also do power snatches, cleans, jerks, power jerks… any olympic lifting move really. I normally keep those sessions to 1 or 2 exercises for a total of about 30-45 minutes.[/quote]

Ok awesome! Preference for which is AM/PM? And I’m assuming technique work is working up to/waveloading around a “comfortable training maximum” of 3-5 reps? Even more critical to avoid excessive grinding or even “intensity” (mental physcing, strength layer vs. HDL layers, etc.)? Thanks[/quote]

Yes you can’t really grind olympic lifts, can you…

I rarely go above 3 reps on the olympic lift variations and these technique sessions are nowhere near a maximum load for that number of reps. The goal is to PRACTICE the movements. Whne I want to do them heavy, I move them to the main session.


#5

CT, a quick question.

Would ‘assistance’ exercises such as rows (after SGHP) be done after the layer or techniques session?

Thanks

Moog


#6

CT - A few days in and honestly I’m weaker and flatter, no pump. Depressing/disappointing that my body can’t seem to plow through and make gains off this style of training. I feel like some rest days are warranted but crave the habit/stimulation of going to the gym. I’m blending elements of your layer training and HFSW.

For instance, “practiced” the clean and press 4x last two days on top of SGHP and bench layers…Is this sort of overlap doable? I guess my body is answering no but I’d LIKE to train a lift 3-5x+ a week, using low reps, chasing performance rather than fatigue, 2x a day.

Do you think there’s any physique benefits from this or is this just strength/skill (I’m picturing the majority of weightlifters who train this way and either look bulky/fat or smoothed out). Feeling like I’m regressing so just wanted to see if it’s training related or I should up meal frequency/carb intake significantly…thanks.


#7

I am not CT but…

I do not think you are regressing. I just think your body is not used to the amount of stress training 2x a day is. Like everything in life you shouldn’t just jump right in to something without working your way up first. Maybe try less volume or less weight but still 2x a day until your nervous system can adapt to your new training? I would say just give it time and you will be fine


#8

[quote]-Sigil- wrote:
CT - A few days in and honestly I’m weaker and flatter, no pump. Depressing/disappointing that my body can’t seem to plow through and make gains off this style of training. I feel like some rest days are warranted but crave the habit/stimulation of going to the gym. I’m blending elements of your layer training and HFSW.

For instance, “practiced” the clean and press 4x last two days on top of SGHP and bench layers…Is this sort of overlap doable? I guess my body is answering no but I’d LIKE to train a lift 3-5x+ a week, using low reps, chasing performance rather than fatigue, 2x a day.

Do you think there’s any physique benefits from this or is this just strength/skill (I’m picturing the majority of weightlifters who train this way and either look bulky/fat or smoothed out). Feeling like I’m regressing so just wanted to see if it’s training related or I should up meal frequency/carb intake significantly…thanks. [/quote]

I’m actually glad that this happened to you! I didn’t want to answer your original post because I was starting to see you move into a very bad pattern (stimulus addiction) and I KNOW for a fact that a stimulus addict will NOT listen to advice… he has to suffer the ill effects to understand.

Now, are two-a-days beneficial? Yes, if you can recover from them. Now… recovering from them is a matter of several things:

  1. Body’s tolerance to training… this is normally developed by GRADUALLY increasing frequency. Elite athletes do not start out at 2 daily session… they might train 4 days a week for a few years, then 5 days a week, 6 days a week, then 6 days a week + 1 two-a-day, then 6 + 2 two-a-day, etc. It is built up over YEARS

  2. Nervous system resiliency… just like some people are more prone to burning out or suffering a depression, some people are more prone to neural fatigue and/or adrenal burnout

  3. Anabolic drug use… obviously an athlete who uses drugs recover faster and can train more often

  4. Nutritional status… doing frequent two-a-day while losing fat (either voluntarily by cutting calories or simply by not eating enough for your activity level) is one of the worst thing you can do for performance, looks and well-being.

  5. Level of the workouts… two-a-days are normally very bad for stimulus addicts because they cannot properly modulate the amount of work or the intensity they put into each session and end up doing WAY too much or either or both.

From my experience two-a-days is best suited for performance increase (sport) or gaining muscle… and both requires an ample amount of food… if you are losing fat during two-a-days you are not consuming enough food to be able to sustain, and thrive on such a training pattern. Sure you can argue that you train twice-a-day to burn more fat/calories. To me that is a mistake because it means that the body will not have enough nutrients to recover. See, losing fat from 1 training a day is not the same thing because your body is likely to still have the ressources to recover, at least enough to avoid a crash.


#9

CT thanks for this post.Great info that I need to drill Into my head.


#10

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]-Sigil- wrote:
CT - A few days in and honestly I’m weaker and flatter, no pump. Depressing/disappointing that my body can’t seem to plow through and make gains off this style of training. I feel like some rest days are warranted but crave the habit/stimulation of going to the gym. I’m blending elements of your layer training and HFSW.

For instance, “practiced” the clean and press 4x last two days on top of SGHP and bench layers…Is this sort of overlap doable? I guess my body is answering no but I’d LIKE to train a lift 3-5x+ a week, using low reps, chasing performance rather than fatigue, 2x a day.

Do you think there’s any physique benefits from this or is this just strength/skill (I’m picturing the majority of weightlifters who train this way and either look bulky/fat or smoothed out). Feeling like I’m regressing so just wanted to see if it’s training related or I should up meal frequency/carb intake significantly…thanks. [/quote]

I’m actually glad that this happened to you! I didn’t want to answer your original post because I was starting to see you move into a very bad pattern (stimulus addiction) and I KNOW for a fact that a stimulus addict will NOT listen to advice… he has to suffer the ill effects to understand.

Now, are two-a-days beneficial? Yes, if you can recover from them. Now… recovering from them is a matter of several things:

  1. Body’s tolerance to training… this is normally developed by GRADUALLY increasing frequency. Elite athletes do not start out at 2 daily session… they might train 4 days a week for a few years, then 5 days a week, 6 days a week, then 6 days a week + 1 two-a-day, then 6 + 2 two-a-day, etc. It is built up over YEARS

  2. Nervous system resiliency… just like some people are more prone to burning out or suffering a depression, some people are more prone to neural fatigue and/or adrenal burnout

  3. Anabolic drug use… obviously an athlete who uses drugs recover faster and can train more often

  4. Nutritional status… doing frequent two-a-day while losing fat (either voluntarily by cutting calories or simply by not eating enough for your activity level) is one of the worst thing you can do for performance, looks and well-being.

  5. Level of the workouts… two-a-days are normally very bad for stimulus addicts because they cannot properly modulate the amount of work or the intensity they put into each session and end up doing WAY too much or either or both.

From my experience two-a-days is best suited for performance increase (sport) or gaining muscle… and both requires an ample amount of food… if you are losing fat during two-a-days you are not consuming enough food to be able to sustain, and thrive on such a training pattern. Sure you can argue that you train twice-a-day to burn more fat/calories. To me that is a mistake because it means that the body will not have enough nutrients to recover. See, losing fat from 1 training a day is not the same thing because your body is likely to still have the ressources to recover, at least enough to avoid a crash.

[/quote]

Ok thanks much for that CT. Oddly enough, I feel like more frequent eating (not just more calories) is necessary for this as well. Shoving down high caloric foods (even junk foods) in an intermittent fasting type style doesn’t seem to do it. I’ll be more mindful…


#11

CT,

I may be a little confused here but I thought I had read that you could lose fat while gaining muscle while doing 2 a days. I am currently deployed on OPS and all I do is work, gym and sleep (as that is all there is to do). I am training twice a day 7 days a week, however, 1 or those sessions is treadmill walking on an 10% incline (keeping HR below 120 bpm) and I have 1 day a week of no weights at all.

Right now I am definitely losing fat and gaining muscle but more slowly than I hoped. I have decided I am not eating enough to gain the muscle I am after. I would like to add more weights sessions as well but I am not sure my body can handle it yet.

Any advice?