T Nation

2nd Possible Cycle Critique/Suggestions


I have been researching and trying to decide what I should do for my second mass cycle. I did an 8 weeker for my first:
http://tnation.tmuscle.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_gear/finally_underway, which was successful IMO. Most importantly, I found out how my body responds to test.

Ok, here is what I have planned, but of course, I have a few questions.

Weeks 1-12: Test E @ 600 mg
Weeks 1-12: Equipoise @ 600 mg
Arimidex @ least .25 mg EOD
Hcg 500 iu per week
Nolva pct

My questions are:

1.I know that equipoise takes a long time to kick in due to its long half-life. Would it be beneficial to run this cycle longer?

2.I have read that equipoise needs to be stopped around a week before the test so that it clears the system. Should I up my test to 13 weeks? Thoughts?

3.If I run a longer cycle, say 14-16 weeks, its going to be harder to recover. I am thinking it is a terrible idea, but would like input. Suggestions?

4.Should I frontload this cycle to expedite things?

5.Any suggestions for another option besides Equipoise? I know an oral kickstart is an option, but I am not so convinced something like Dbol is worth it.

My Diet will be spot on and clean. I know that without a proper diet, full potential will never be attained. This holds true off cycle as well.

I will slowly up the macros as my bodyweight increases. Last cycle I went too high on my macros, and accumulated more fat than I wanted. This time, everything will be more gradual. I think I will use a carb cycling approach with scheduled refeeds. I have found this a very effective way in keeping the metabolism high. I will also include cardio (at least one HIIT session per week) during this cycle, b/c last one it was basically non-existent.

Current Stats are as follows:
5â??10, 180 pounds, 7-8% BF (been cutting)
(When not in a calorie deficit, easily walk around at a very lean 185+ )



In regards to your questions:

1) No.
2) I would run the eq 1-10
3) Yes. Longer cycles = harder recovery, in general. 12 weeks is a bit long for my taste to start with.
4) I always frontload. Why wouldn't you?
5) Drop the EQ, add more test. 800/week or so. That's what I think. I also like tren, but probably not for a second cycle.

Also, split that HCG into 3 doses spread over the week. Its no biggie inj. anyway. I go sub-q with an insulin needle and barely feel it.


Coming off long cycles is no more difficult if you know what you're doing I've come off after 5-6 months on and as long as you do it right its not difficult. It might take a bit longer and the use of proper ancillaries is critical but it should not be a deterrent for the educated.


Honestly...im in the same boat.

I now like long cycles and feel the gains are worth the time on and am smart about recovery.

But not everyone can recover well.

Only thing i would do is stay away from deca on a long cycle thats all..I stay away from deca period actually.


I'm in that same boat...the I'm done with Deca boat. Just cannot run it anymore the sides are too much compared to the gains for me.


Yeah, I have no experiences with Deca, and I honestly never plan to.

Thanks for the input guys. I suppose I will frontload this cycle, or better yet, maybe start it off with prop.

I am not so sure that much test is ideal for me. I saw plenty enough gains with just 500 mg/wk. Not sure if the extra sides from 800 mg would be worth it. Also not so sure about Tren either. I would run Tren E, but do not know how my body reacts to it, and I do not like the fact of pinning so often with Tren A right now. I like the effects Tren has, but I am not so sure...


Not trying to be wishy washy, just want to get the most bang for my buck. Honestly, this is probably the last cycle I will run for a long time. The cost of Equipoise vs. added benefits doesn't seem too appealing the more I think about it. Yes, they are some good reviews about it, but nothing like the rave reviews tren gets.

I had posted a possible Tren A/Test P cycle some time back so I was contemplating tren for a while anyhow. This being my last cycle for a long time, I may just suck it up and do a Test E / Tren E cycle. I am aware of the sides and the long estered tren, and even though it stays in the system longer, I can always abort it if too bad.

Now I have seen mixed thoughts on Test/Tren doses. I am thinking of a cycle as such:

Weeks 1-10: Test E: 600 mg/wk (front loaded)
Weeks 1-8: Tren E: 500 mg/wk
Weeks 1-4: DBol; 30mg/day (may remove this since I am frontloading)
Hcg 500 iu 2-3 times weekly
Arimidex at least .25 mg EOD (will start using 2 weeks prior to cycle to get in system)
Nolva pct
Caber or praxi on hand...any suggestions for which?

My thoughts are this is a shorter cycle, and has more bang for the buck. I know it is only my second cycle, but I tend to do things right, and will have my ducks in a row before I put anything in my body. I know how I respond to test, so if any crazy sides come up I cannot deal with, I will know it is from the tren, and will abort it. Flame away, suggestions, etc. Thanks.


Suggestions: If you are looking to minimize tren sides try running your test at just 200mg/wk. Drop the hcg to 250iu EOD. I don't think its necessary and maybe not even wise to start your adex 2 weeks prior. I've only ever used caber and it does the job in the proper dose, praxi is certainly cheaper but I have used it and it would be a disservice to you to speak from hearsay. Consider a test taper


Shit, typo on the hcg. Meant to say 500 iu total a week. Thanks for the correction, I'll do 250 iu EOD approach.

As for lower T, yes I have researched that as well and glad you gave input. I see that it seems to reduce sides in many cases.

Should I lower T, up Tren, and frontload both? Should I frontload the Tren? I am not sure since I have never used it, but this being a shorter cycle thought maybe so. Or, possibly run the test for 12 weeks, and tren for 10.

Do I really need a test taper with this being low dose and a shorter cycle?

As it stands:

Weeks 1-10: Test E at 200 mg/wk (first day FL 250 mg, for a total of 350 mg first week)
Weeks 1-8: Tren at 500 mg/wk ??
hcg 250 iu EOD
Arimidex .25 mg EOD
Dostinex on hand (currently checking on dosages to know how much to have on hand)
Nolva pct

I am trying to do this optimally, and really appreciate the input from you experienced guys. I am trying not to ask too many questions, and I have actually tried to research before I ask. However, tren is another animal, and I am reading very conflicting stuff on it. This is not like a cookie cutter test cycle, so I would like to have some input. Thanks.


I normally advocate a frontload for a 8-12 weeker like you seem to be planning. If you can, if you have enough product you could load the tren. Maybe don't go too overboard. Something like 500mg day 1 and then just resume what you normally would. For the test again maybe 200mg the first day and then maintenance from then on.

As for the dostinex we all used to say 1mg a week i.e. .5mg twice a week but I've found for me .5mg EOD seem to be more ideal. If you get the 20 1mg pills that should cover a good 10 week run at least. For you 1mg a week might be enough. Mileage varies of course


Thanks saps, this is very helpful. As for the frontload, to keep dosages accurate, I will probably just do 250 mg/ml the for my test frontload, and maintenance from then on. I'll probably do 250 mg/wk to keep things simple and accurate/stable, which would simply be 1/2 cc each shot of test.

I know some people like the test stasis with Tren, but would it be necessary?

Also, I know this is dependent on the individual, but in others experience/opinion, would a Test/Tren cycle such as this, or a Test/Dbol cycle yield similar gains? I am assuming the test/tren cycle would yield more lean gains, which is what I am after. I exploded on 500 mg/week of Test, but not all of it was lean. A good deal was, but there was some fat accumulation which was to be expected. All in all, my cycle was very successfull considering it was only an 8 weeker. However, this was also my first cycle, so I figured I would explode. My goal for this cycle is to gain about 10-12 LBM...I know it may not happen, that is why I am setting it as a goal.


Fat gain is primarily diet and very secondarily estrogen control. Yes tren is a better candidate than dbol for lean gains and overall its just better. But that should not deter you from running all 3 concurrently if you can. Proper diet and estrogen management will keep you lean. Its the eating 5000calories a day that makes you fat. You should not expect to get fat because you take test and dbol, erase that thought from your head.


You are correct, I increased my macros faster than I should have, which in turn was the result of the small amount of fat accumulation I experienced. I understand that steroids don't make you fat, that diet does. I was getting at estrogen, but that too can be controlled.


If you dose the test low there is little estrogen concern with tren. If you got the adex and caber then you're looking pretty set


Thanks for the help saps. No one else seemed to have any insight to offer, or maybe they didn't want to, and I thank you for your input. Its just nice to get various opinions/experiences on a cycle such as this, and I was trying to get some here considering most instances I read never dose the test this low.

However, the new verdict I have been seeing lately seems to be pointing towards the way I have this laid out-low dose test + tren = less tren sides. Hopefully this cycle will be optimal for me, considering that I will have to be out of the game for a very long time (due to my occupation). I will continue to do more research up until I run a cycle in the fall to ensure I get everything on point, and get the most bang for my buck, so to speak.


Very welcome and very nice to see someone planning out their cycle with intelligence and not just jumping first and the asking if they have a parachute. Best of luck to you