T Nation

2nd Cycle Proposal


6'4" Tall
Lifting 8 years
495lb Dead
315lb Bench
325lb Squat "working on it"

1st cycle was Sust 250 @ 500mg per week EOD injections ran it out for 8 weeks. No sides at all?

My goal is to start working toward competitive lifting, so strength and size gains are what I'm most after. Someday I would like to weight in at 300lbs

Weeks 1-4 Dbol 20mg ED
Weeks 1-6 Test E or Sustanon 250 @ 500mg per week Test E would be E3D, Sust EOD First injection of Test will be 750mg to get levels up off the bat
Weeks 7-8 Winstrol injection @ 50mg ED
Adex Weeks 1-12 .25ml EOD
PCT Nolva starting @ week 9 40/40/20/20
Proscar (finasteride) and tetracycline daily (I have always been on these)

I want to thank BR for his advice.

I have a broken rib right at the moment so I am working through it the best I can. I will not start this until I am a full 3 or 4 months off my last run and my rib is 100%.

Also, I have been kicking around the idea of just running a test only cycle for my 2nd as well but upping the dosage to 750mg per week, I would like to hear some opinions on that as well???

I don't have the gear yet but have 20ML of Sust on hand so was thinking of using it rather than Test E to save money and I know I would need to inject EOD rather than E3D

I am open to constructive criticism and suggestions. :slight_smile:

Thank you much,





I'm sure no one has replied because it seems like you have everything sorted out and just need to make a decision on whether you want to run one drug or do a stack.

I am partial to dbol so I would recommend the first option. 20mg is ok but I prefer 30mg. You can space 30mg out a bit easier.

I would skip the 2 weeks of winstrol and start the Dbol in week 2 or 3 and run it from there.

I'd go with 8 weeks of test, but if you only have a certain amount than use what you have. I am a slow responder to T that's why I say that.

These are just personal opinions. Your cycle would be fine as is.


It's a well laid out cycle IMHO.

@BONEZ--I think he decided to do the 6 weeks of test to get his levels to drop by week 8, allowing him to start PCT--basically what Bill Roberts was talking about: supplementing with orals at the end and letting the longer ester T drop in order to begin PCT right on time without any suppressive levels of T still active in the system.

I think 30mg dbol would be easier to split dosing wise as well. The winstrol could be useful where it is, and if your goal is to try it to see how you like it, this is an ok way to do that because 2 weeks will probably not let you experience the full brunt of side effects some people get and will allow you to assess tolerance levels and whether you want to use it in the future. Not that it's an intolerable drug, but some people find the "dry joints" or joint pain thing more than they want to deal with when trying to lift extremely heavy.

The only thing you really need to decide is whether you want to stack or run straight test. The advantage of a straight run is simplicity and ease. In addition you will be able to tell how many sides or if sides appear over your previous level of use. The disadvantage is you miss out on some of the other effects different drugs can give you, and it takes longer to "feel" the test because there's no kickstart with a short acting drug.

That's really your choice. Hope this helps, you laid out a pretty good cycle I think.


True. I understand.

I choose 8 weeks as the minimum (for a long ester) because it takes me a while to feel the effects of T. Even with a frontload. It takes me a good two weeks to notice even the slightest amount stregth gains when using prop. Enanthate is a few weeks longer than that. For me, at least, a 6 week cycle of long esters would not be productive enough and would wind up being a waste of 6 weeks of gear for the most part.

I have never used a blend though so maybe 6 weeks w/frontload would be beneficial, I'll have to see.


Thanks for the reply's gents,

Bonez, it took me about a week to start feeling the Sust but it has short acting esters in there so I'm assuming the Test E will take a bit longer to kick in??

I have been trying to find some answers on the effects of Dbol and Winny on hair loss. My proscar was able to combat any hair loss on my first cycle of T only, as far as I could tell. Will it be able to do the same for the stack? I have here Deca will make it drop right out and there is no way to stop it, or was that Dbol??


If you felt sust kick in a week it shouldn't be too much longer for enanthate. A guess would be around the 3 week mark.

I know nothing about MPB and AAS sorry.


New to this posting thing although I have been part of the site and reading the forums for the past year.

Test E will take a little longer to kick in, though front-loading does seem to help me feel the effects faster.

I have never read any empirical evidence that any certain compound will make you loose hair faster as compared to other compounds. I have taken both deca and d-bol (at the same time actually) and have never had any hair loss. If you have the genetic predisposition for balding, then any compound will accelerate hair loss. If you are one of the lucky ones, then you will keep your hair. Judging from the fact you kept your hair I would say you would be fine with either deca or dbol and using the proscar.


Well I lied about not knowing anythign about AAS and balding, I just don't know the specific mechanisms of every drug. With that said

How can your post be true?

Not every drug converts to DHT. Nadrolone converts to dihydronadrolone and I have no idea if that aggrivates MPB.

Is there more to it? What else accelerates MPB besides DHT binding to hair follicles?


There is nothing else that I know of that accelerates MPB besides DHT binding to hair follicles, and that is why I have to thank you for catching my mistake.

It should read: If you have the genetic predisposition for balding, then certain compounds will accelerate hair loss. If you are one of the lucky ones, then you will keep your hair.

Now you know why I don't post often. Just get to firing away and not paying attention. Thanks for staying on top of things BONEZ217.

I guess my main point is that even drugs that convert to DHT will not cause MPB if you are not genetically predispositioned for MPB. Now, maybe that changes with ultra high doses? That I do not know.


Edit: I have never read any empirical evidence that any certain compound (the ones that convert to DHT that is) will make you loose hair faster as compared to other compounds.

Need to reread my stuff. Sorry. No excuse for that.


winstrol isn't a good idea if you have MPB, you should drop it.

test is ok because your proscar will stop the conversion (or the majority of it anyway).

deca is fine as well, Dihydroxynandrolone isn't believed to strongly activate the DHT receptors in the scalp (they bind but don't act on it strongly which is why it is often considered hair friendly). your proscar will block this conversion either way just like it does with test.

I think Dbol is ok as well.

The drugs you wanna stay away from if you have hairloss issues are: winny, masteron, tren, and to a lesser extent primo (although it is debated hwo strongly it acts on the receptor).


Anything I might think to substitute the Winny with, or should I just run the Dbol / Test, running test out to 8 weeks.


You could run prop or tren ace for weeks 7 & 8 if you still want to start PCT in week 9.


I'm going to order tomorrow and I think I am just going to do a D-bol Test stack. I will run D-bol as proposed and push the test out to week 8. I will just save further experimentation for later cycles. I don't currently have any hair loss but I would if I didn't take finasteride everyday.


I don't think so FG. Proscar = finasteride, and finasteride inhibits 5-aa conversion of substrates to DHT analogs. It does absolutely nothing, as far as I know, to prevent the binding of analogs to the DHT receptors. If this were the case finasteride/dutasteride could be used to ameliorate the hair loss effects of masteron and other DHT derivatives. Unless there some study I haven't read on it yet, in which case I'll thank you to post the link to it..