T Nation

2nd Cycle - Opinions Wanted

I’m praying I don’t get flamed for this, but here goes…

My first cycle ended (PCT ended, rather) at the Beginning of July.
I ran Test E 500mg/wk for 10 weeks (last two weeks were actually 750mg) along with 30mg/day of Dbol weeks 1-4. I had Adex on hand, but didn’t really have to use it. All things considered I think it was pretty successful, didn’t have any big issues, gained (and kept) about 20 lbs. bench, squat, and DL all went up (bench crashed later, but still up a net 25/30 lbs.)

So my question to the very knowledgeable T-Nation forum users is- what are your thoughts on doing the same cycle again?
I know typically for a second cycle people like to add another compound (I was thinking deca, if I went that route). I don’t have any desire to be a competing bb’er at this point in my life- but I would still like to add size/mass/strength.

I feel comfortable running it again and I’m kinda wondering whether adding another compound is going to be playing with fire or not since I already know how I react to Test E and Dbol. I’m sure a few of you are thinking, “do it, pussy” - and part of me thinks that way too.

I’ve got time to plan and map out the second cycle as I need to drop my bf% before I start this. The last couple months with moving twice and making some really bad dietary choices have set me back more than I care to admit.

Also- I’m seeing now on the board a lot of people recommending to run Dbol at the END of a cycle rather than as a kickstart. I saw someone (I believe JJ) mention that was so you didn’t have a sort of mid-cycle crash (which I think I may have experienced on my cycle)…but my only concern regarding running it at the end of a cycle is if it would make you crash harder once you’re off?

Essentially it’d be going off two compounds at once rather than just going off one.
You guys know more than me.
I’m a roast, baste me.

Why do you think you want to include deca?

Test and dbol should be absolutely fine for a second cycle, provide you increase your calories and train properly. If you want to add more, you’ll have to justify why exactly it is you want to add that particular compound before you can expect a competent response.

In my personal experience, I have not noticed that dbol makes that much of a difference when added later in the cycle as opposed to before, though I can see a lot of good in the argument for adding it in at the very end of a cycle. I get great benefits from dbol no matter where I put it. The beginning “lag time” can apparently be alleviated by a test frontload, though I have yet to personally try one, as I have been using only shorter esters for so long now.

After the explosion of size and strength from the stack of Dbol and T and ‘x’, dropping the dbol halfway leaves the user often feeling like the cycle has nothing more to give.

Over the short term dbol is much more effective that T as building size and strength, and this leaves T looking a lil’ limp - often times at least.

I would use it during the second half of the cycle to:

-Benefit from adding in another very effective drug once you have begun to plateau (if frontloaded) or
-Benefit from adding in another very effective drug as the other drugs start really kicking in.
-Use the Dbol to bridge to the PCT.
-Avoid the anti-climax many seem to get from using it at the start.

Cortes - Little point in frontloading Acetate esters IMO - although if i use em i do tend to.

However Prop is definitely worth frontloading. Definitely.

[quote]J-J wrote:
After the explosion of size and strength from the stack of Dbol and T and ‘x’, dropping the dbol halfway leaves the user often feeling like the cycle has nothing more to give.

Over the short term dbol is much more effective that T as building size and strength, and this leaves T looking a lil’ limp - often times at least.

I would use it during the second half of the cycle to:

-Benefit from adding in another very effective drug once you have begun to plateau (if frontloaded) or
-Benefit from adding in another very effective drug as the other drugs start really kicking in.
-Use the Dbol to bridge to the PCT.
-Avoid the anti-climax many seem to get from using it at the start.

Cortes - Little point in frontloading Acetate esters IMO - although if i use em i do tend to.

However Prop is definitely worth frontloading. Definitely.[/quote]

I like your idea of using the dbol to bridge to pct. As I said earlier, I honestly have not noticed that much difference in adding it later in the cycle (meaning three weeks in, middle, anywhere other than at the very end as a bridge in to pct, as you state above), other than the fact that aromatization tends to take place at a much faster rate when applied in this manner (not that this is a problem).

As far as the prop frontload, actually, I do intend to try it at the start of my next cycle. I just basically became interested in this after following the threads on frontloading here after the last few months, and it now makes so much more sense to me (thanks to you and Bill). Unfortunately, I was already in the middle of a cycle when I became interested. I’ll certainly report my experience upon my next cycle, however. Especially as I consider myself a bit of a “slow responder.”

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Why do you think you want to include deca?

Test and dbol should be absolutely fine for a second cycle, provide you increase your calories and train properly. If you want to add more, you’ll have to justify why exactly it is you want to add that particular compound before you can expect a competent response.
[/quote]

My reasoning I suppose is not very scientific- it merely seems as if everyone adds another compound after their first cycle. The first one is meant to be simple, yet very effective- and a lot of people here have even said you’ll never get the same gains as you did from your first cycle- so you need to add compounds to get the most out of your cycle. Obviously there is some truth to this, as I can’t run this cycle 2x a year for 3 years and expect to gain 120 lbs.
Decca was suggested to me as the compound to stack with Test E/Dbol since I didn’t want to deal with Tren. So that’s my reasoning behind the choice for both what and why.

[quote]J-J wrote:
After the explosion of size and strength from the stack of Dbol and T and ‘x’, dropping the dbol halfway leaves the user often feeling like the cycle has nothing more to give.

Over the short term dbol is much more effective that T as building size and strength, and this leaves T looking a lil’ limp - often times at least.

I would use it during the second half of the cycle to:

-Benefit from adding in another very effective drug once you have begun to plateau (if frontloaded) or
-Benefit from adding in another very effective drug as the other drugs start really kicking in.
-Use the Dbol to bridge to the PCT.
-Avoid the anti-climax many seem to get from using it at the start.
[/quote]

“After the explosion of size and strength from the stack of Dbol and T and ‘x’, dropping the dbol halfway leaves the user often feeling like the cycle has nothing more to give.
Over the short term dbol is much more effective that T as building size and strength, and this leaves T looking a lil’ limp - often times at least.”

I think that describes to a T (no pun intended?) what I experienced during my cycle. I talked to a few people about what was going on and they thought the Test. was underdosed- hence why I ended up bumping it up in the last couple weeks.

When you say use the Dbol to bridge the PCT- do you mean continuing to run it during the two week stasis period after you’re done with T and tapering off the dbol during those two weeks? If that is the case- would those two weeks be in ADDITION to the 4 wks or PART OF the 4 weeks?

What 4 weeks? If you are talking about 4 weeks of PCT - then no, PCT is POST CYCLE - after all AAS.

[quote]Toby Queef wrote:

Decca was suggested to me as the compound to stack with Test E/Dbol since I didn’t want to deal with Tren. So that’s my reasoning behind the choice for both what and why.[/quote]

Well you might want to continue your research of nandrolone a bit longer. It certainly has as many critics and anti-fans as does tren, and comes with it’s own host of very real side effects. The side effects from deca tend to last a lot longer than the merely uncomfortable ones tren brings on.

I know I say it ad nauseum, but I freakin love trenbolone. It is very hard for me to say that I favor any steroid, even testosterone itself, over tren. The side effects are certainly real for some, but you don’t know until you use it. Side effects from tren are nearly a non-issue with me.

[/tren whoring]

[quote]J-J wrote:
What 4 weeks? If you are talking about 4 weeks of PCT - then no, PCT is POST CYCLE - after all AAS.[/quote]

I was talking about the 4 weeks of Dbol. It’s a 9-10wk cycle, 4 of which will be on Dbol. You suggested running it at the later part of the cycle to bridge PCT- So essentially what I was asking was what week would you suggest starting the Dbol at. Week 5 or 7?

I will have a two week “stasis” period before starting PCT (nolva- 4wks) it is during that time that a lot of people will taper off their adex. When you said “bridge PCT” I wasn’t fully sure what you meant, but assumed it would have been something similar to that, like tapering off the DBOL during that two week ‘stasis’ period leading up to PCT.

[quote]Cortes wrote:

Well you might want to continue your research of nandrolone a bit longer. It certainly has as many critics and anti-fans as does tren, and comes with it’s own host of very real side effects. The side effects from deca tend to last a lot longer than the merely uncomfortable ones tren brings on.

I know I say it ad nauseum, but I freakin love trenbolone. It is very hard for me to say that I favor any steroid, even testosterone itself, over tren. The side effects are certainly real for some, but you don’t know until you use it. Side effects from tren are nearly a non-issue with me.

[/tren whoring][/quote]

I guess I will have to research it a little more in-depth. I have talked to someone (on here I believe?) who used Tren (Tren only cycle, in their younger and more vulnerable days…) and he loved it and recommended it. Said he experienced no sides and pretty much just blew up (in the good sense). But I’ve also read peoples horror stories (not to be confused with your whore story, lol) and that’s kinda what made me shy away from it. I suppose that was a little prejudice as I realize everyone is affected differently. I also know somebody who is convinced it was Decca that made him start to lose his hair.
I will re-visit the idea of Tren based on your recommendation.

lol! i see…

Well in short - GOD KNOWS!

That is over analyzing it or at least analyzing it in the wrong way. If you want to run 4 weeks of that drug… run 4 weeks. if you want to run 6 weeks or 8, then do that.

Once you choose the length which is decided on whatever factors are important to you - results, liver health, having a night on the booze - then plan to start the dbol so you finish the run on the day you begin PCT.

:wink:

Rather than start a new post and clutter shit up, I thought I’d just add another question here. I’m thinking about possibly adding (oral)Winny to the cycle- and I’d like to know how worthwhile or stupid of an idea this is. The cycle would look something like this:

Test E: 750mg/wk Weeks 1-10
Dbol: 30mg/day Weeks 1-4
Winny: 50mg/day Weeks 6-10
Adex: .25mg EOD

Standard PCT

I know Dbol and oral Winny are both hepatoxic. Dbol is typically limited to around 6 weeks because of this- so is having that two week break, then going another 4 on winny ok? I won’t be drinking at all on this cycle. And I suppose I could take some milk thistle (if I remember correctly…) to make it a little less harsh.

Your knowledgeable input is appreciated…

I doubt you are really going to see much result for the strain the winstrol puts on your liver and possibly your joints. I’d not worry about it unless you plan on going to the beach, which I rather doubt you’ll be doing in December.

Unless you planned on adding the winstrol for some other reason, like estrogen control or something. But I don’t feel that’s the reason. It isn’t, is it?

Dbol and test together will get you plenty of results.

If you want to add in another steroid that acts similarly to winstrol but is FAR better than winstrol and you won’t have to worry about hepatoxicity, then I would go with masteron.

[quote]Cortes wrote:
If you want to add in another steroid that acts similarly to winstrol but is FAR better than winstrol and you won’t have to worry about hepatoxicity, then I would go with masteron.[/quote]

I know Dbol and Test will get me results. The reason I had been considering both masteron and winstrol was because I kinda wanted the best of both worlds. With Dbol I gained a lot of strength, I also got pretty puffy/watery. With winstrol (or masteron), I figured I could continue to gain/maintain while lowering my calories and shedding some extra bodyfat (not significantly, but food $ last cycle was …a lot.)

The reasons I was leaning towards winny instead of masteron were:

  1. My guy is currently out of Masteron
  2. The androgenic sides- mainly hairloss
  3. Really don’t want to be pinning 4 times a week (unless you can mix it with the Test E? Haven’t gotten that far yet)

Toby Queef
I think this discussion is going well but I’d like to throw in a few thoughts.

1] Don’t get so concerned with adding compounds. Over the last 5 years I’ve run 7-8 cycles I have never, ever run more than 3 compounds concurrently. So if you ran 500mg of TE and it worked with 30mg of dbol, rather than adding say 300mg of ND a week you might just consider increasing the dose of what already worked so well. For instance 750mg TE and 40mg ED of the dbol; you kinda were leaning this way already a few posts above.

2] On the subject of dbol I myself am one who likes to throw it in after the injectables have reached saturation. I like enanthates outside of ND so I wait at least 3 weeks before introducing dbol [the only oral I really use these days; I dont count proviron for this discussion.]

My last cycle I was on for about 18 weeks. In this cycle I didnt even throw in the dbol till midway thru the cycle and ran it till the end so I was probably on the dbol for 8-9 weeks. Believe me when I tell you the “don’t run an 17AA oral more than 6 weeks” myth is just that. A myth. My liver values after 8-9 weeks of dbol were the same as pre cycle.

The one amendment I made to my dbol usage was switching from using it in divided dose to all at once as a pre training enhancer. IMO if you wanna be strong a la a powerlifter use it all at once. If you wanna be big a la a bodybuilder go ahead and divide the dose and use it “traditionally.”

3] As Cortes mentioned earlier above tren is unequalled in terms of power, potency, negative sides you name it tren is it. You haven’t really gone balls to the wall until to try tren. I put no stock in the myth that a person has to graduate up the ladder in cycles.

That is cycle #1 should be test only. Cycle #2 can be test and a second compound. Cycle #3-4 are increasing doses and perhaps adding a third member to the stack. Whatever. If you wanna use and try tren then just try it. I would advise as many do starting relatively mild. Some find 50mg ED of TRA or 300-400mg of TRE even too much.

Many experienced tren users even scale back their weekly doses to the 200-300mg level and still get tangible gains with minimal sides.

4] Finally remember everyone’s body will have a slightly different reaction to different AAS. Some guys get acne, others balls shrink, some lose hair, others have bp problems or gyno. To an extent you dont know till you try. Having said that it is worthwhile to at least know the trends and likelihoods of using certain products. For instance, knowing to have some caber in pill form and not RC on hand if running a nor19.

[quote]Cortes wrote:
If you want to add in another steroid that acts similarly to winstrol but is FAR better than winstrol and you won’t have to worry about hepatoxicity, then I would go with masteron.[/quote]

Ok, for some reason like HALF of my posts aren’t going through on this board. It is the weirdest shit ever. So I will try to remember what I originally said when I first responded to this.

I know Test E and Dbol can give great results- my reason for wanting to add winstrol/masteron was that I kinda wanted the best of both worlds. When I was on Dbol I had some pretty great strength gains, but I also got pretty puffy/watery. I figured by adding win/mast I could continue to gain and lower my caloric intake (not a significant amount, but just enough so that I don’t have to spend a king’s ransom on food) and also not have the puffy/watery look. I was a little concerned about the joint issues, but I figured if that became a problem I could lower the dose, or just stop using it altogether.

There were a couple reasons I chose winstrol over masteron:

  1. My guy is out of masteron
  2. The androgenic sides- specifically hairloss, isn’t too appealing (of course I don’t know I’ll be affected til I try- and I even think I might be alright at a low enough dose)
  3. I don’t really want to pin 4 times a week. (I’m not sure if you can mix mast. with Test E, haven’t researched it that thoroughly yet)
  4. Mast is twice as expensive as Winstrol (that’s not that big of a deal though)

[quote]saps wrote:
Toby Queef
I think this discussion is going well but I’d like to throw in a few thoughts.

1] Don’t get so concerned with adding compounds. Over the last 5 years I’ve run 7-8 cycles I have never, ever run more than 3 compounds concurrently. So if you ran 500mg of TE and it worked with 30mg of dbol, rather than adding say 300mg of ND a week you might just consider increasing the dose of what already worked so well. For instance 750mg TE and 40mg ED of the dbol; you kinda were leaning this way already a few posts above.

2] On the subject of dbol I myself am one who likes to throw it in after the injectables have reached saturation. I like enanthates outside of ND so I wait at least 3 weeks before introducing dbol [the only oral I really use these days; I dont count proviron for this discussion.] My last cycle I was on for about 18 weeks. In this cycle I didnt even throw in the dbol till midway thru the cycle and ran it till the end so I was probably on the dbol for 8-9 weeks. Believe me when I tell you the “don’t run an 17AA oral more than 6 weeks” myth is just that. A myth. My liver values after 8-9 weeks of dbol were the same as pre cycle. The one amendment I made to my dbol usage was switching from using it in divided dose to all at once as a pre training enhancer. IMO if you wanna be strong a la a powerlifter use it all at once. If you wanna be big a la a bodybuilder go ahead and divide the dose and use it “traditionally.”

3] As Cortes mentioned earlier above tren is unequalled in terms of power, potency, negative sides you name it tren is it. You haven’t really gone balls to the wall until to try tren. I put no stock in the myth that a person has to graduate up the ladder in cycles. That is cycle #1 should be test only. Cycle #2 can be test and a second compound. Cycle #3-4 are increasing doses and perhaps adding a third member to the stack. Whatever. If you wanna use and try tren then just try it. I would advise as many do starting relatively mild. Some find 50mg ED of TRA or 300-400mg of TRE even too much. Many experienced tren users even scale back their weekly doses to the 200-300mg level and still get tangible gains with minimal sides.

4] Finally remember everyone’s body will have a slightly different reaction to different AAS. Some guys get acne, others balls shrink, some lose hair, others have bp problems or gyno. To an extent you dont know till you try. Having said that it is worthwhile to at least know the trends and likelihoods of using certain products. For instance, knowing to have some caber in pill form and not RC on hand if running a nor19. [/quote]

I like that you mentioned taking all the Dbol in one dose pre-workout. I actually am more interested in powerlifting currently than bodybuilding. The last two weeks I was on Dbol, I was actually taking all of it about 30 min before hitting the gym or 10mg earlier in the day, then 20mg before the gym. Most people had been telling me to split it into three doses or even SIX doses throughout the day. I kinda figured that was a waste given its incredibly short half-life.
Since you seem to have a lot of experience with Dbol- did you ever experience back pumps? And what did you do to deal with them? I’ve seen a lot of people who say take up to 1 or 2g of Taurine- I was taking about half that (or what’s found in an energy drink) and that didn’t seem to do much. I had to give up DL’s for that month and I felt like I was going to die after squatting. More than once I laid there on a bench for a few minutes just waiting for the pain to subside, lol.

I really don’t think I’m ready for dealing with Tren mentally and I don’t think I’m at the point where I need it either.

[quote]saps wrote:

4] Finally remember everyone’s body will have a slightly different reaction to different AAS. Some guys get acne, others balls shrink, some lose hair, others have bp problems or gyno. To an extent you dont know till you try. Having said that it is worthwhile to at least know the trends and likelihoods of using certain products. For instance, knowing to have some caber in pill form and not RC on hand if running a nor19. [/quote]

Great point. There are a lot of cases in which something is recommended over and over again on this board or that, and somebody will have the balls to go against the grain and figure out that, holy cow, it doesn’t affect him that way at all!

So, for example, with masteron, you may not experience any hair loss at all. I certainly don’t experience an inkling of hair loss and I run stupid amounts of all sorts of drugs on a regular basis and am old enough that I should if I am going to. But again, maybe that’s just me, and another guy is going to end up looking like Howie Mandel on 200mg/w of mast.

From what I know, pretty well any sides, even hair loss, even gyno, are reversible IF the proper precautions are taken and the proper ancillaries on hand or in use before you ever begin. There is no reason that any commonly sited side needs to become any real issue for anyone in this day and age of easy acquisition of damned near anything at all we need.

Please keep this in mind when automatically canceling out “better” options from your potential future cycles.

I have to say that I am very blessed to have a kind of “fuck it let’s eat this thing” mentality when it comes to just about anything. It has always served me well in that the risks I take often result in unexpected reward. However, the reason I don’t get hurt as many times as I win is that I do my DD first, and then dive in with all of the proper safety measures in place.

[quote]Toby Queef wrote:

I like that you mentioned taking all the Dbol in one dose pre-workout. I actually am more interested in powerlifting currently than bodybuilding. The last two weeks I was on Dbol, I was actually taking all of it about 30 min before hitting the gym or 10mg earlier in the day, then 20mg before the gym. Most people had been telling me to split it into three doses or even SIX doses throughout the day. I kinda figured that was a waste given its incredibly short half-life.
Since you seem to have a lot of experience with Dbol- did you ever experience back pumps? And what did you do to deal with them? I’ve seen a lot of people who say take up to 1 or 2g of Taurine- I was taking about half that (or what’s found in an energy drink) and that didn’t seem to do much. I had to give up DL’s for that month and I felt like I was going to die after squatting. More than once I laid there on a bench for a few minutes just waiting for the pain to subside, lol.

I really don’t think I’m ready for dealing with Tren mentally and I don’t think I’m at the point where I need it either. [/quote]

I have gotten the dbol pumps and I’ve learned in my body how much to dose based on bodyparts being trained. For instance if Im squatting I actually use less dbol 30-40mg pre training because I know the back pumps could cripple me more than do good. If Im training chest/bench I’ll push as high as 50-60mg since those muscle dont cripple me. Although I have a ton of 40mg caps so when I use those I just take 1 40mg and thats about my sweet spot.
Taurine does help reduce the effects but yeah you gotta take more than 500mg you get in a energy drink. I’d start at least 1-1.5gram and be prepared to dose up as high as 2-3grams potentially. YMMV.
A key to the single mega dose protocol however is making sure you injectables are in order.

[quote]Cortes wrote:

From what I know, pretty well any sides, even hair loss, even gyno, are reversible IF the proper precautions are taken and the proper ancillaries on hand or in use before you ever begin. There is no reason that any commonly sited side needs to become any real issue for anyone in this day and age of easy acquisition of damned near anything at all we need.

[/quote]

Great point and yes that is a big IF. What vets learned the hard way and sadly rookies dont fully understand because they can’t without experience is that you must put more time, energy, focus and money into ancillaries than the actual AAS. Obviously those of use who are part of a homebrew operation have relatively low costs for AAS. But even if you buy your stuff online or whatever consider what you’ll need for a mid level test-tren-dbol cycle ancillary wise. You’ll need you AI either letro or adex, depending on whether you get pills or a liquid RC that’s probably going to run you at least as much as a 10ml vial of test [if my understanding of current pricing is right]. You’ll need some caber. Forget any place stuffing it liquid. You may choose to get some nolva for your PCT and those three ancillaries are only for gyno control. There’s finasteride for potential hairloss sides. Accutane if you get heavy acne. It can really add up fast. Seriously its very likely to end up spending more $$ on your ancillaries than your gear. Depending of course on what sides your prone to.