T Nation

2nd Cycle Opinion


#1

I am getting ready to begin my second cycle. I am 6'5" 235lbs @ roughly 14-17% bf, hard to get a precise figure since I am currently overseas. I will be spending the next and a half month bringing down the bf a little further before I start. Product and dosage as followed:

Cycle
1-10 Test-E @ 350mg every 3.5 days (700mg weekly)
1-6 Arimidex @ .25mg every day -- 6-12 Arimidex @ .25 every other day
1-6 Dbol @ 25-50mg daily
6-12 Proviron @ 50mg daily
1-10 Nolvadex @ 40mg if needed
PCT
13-16 Proviron @ 25mg daily
13-13 Clomid @ 100mg daily -- 14-16 Clomid @ 50mg daily
13-14 Nolvadex @ 40mg daily -- 15-16 Nolvadex @ 20mg daily
13-16 HCG??

I will be running clenbuterol during my prep over the next month and a half. Do you think there would be any benefit to cycling it while on cycle? It seems it may help keep some excess bloating off. I am not sure on the dosage for the Arimidex, after reviewing Proviron it seems to be an acceptable AI, what are your thought? I am also considering not running the HCG this cycle, it is a shorter cycle and I was thinking on saving the HCG for a more intense cycle. Overall, what are your opinions, any tips or criticism is welcome.


#2

First off. Would do Arimidex 0.25mg EOD. Bump it up if bloat doesn't subside but I'm sure it will.

Next, have you ran Dbol before? For most it bloats and if you're trying to prep and relieve of water retention then I don't that thats the compound you are in search of. Try Tbol. If you're goal is to put on some size, leave the Dbol and forget about Clen. If it is to cut down then vice versa. Not really sure what you're trying to do here.

HCG is a tough call. I know most people don't like spending the money but it is never not a benefit in my opinion. If you have the money, do it. If not you can get away with it. Check your bloods to ensure cause it will aid you with upcoming cycles.

Everything else seems pretty spot on. Good job in doing some research. Good luck.

Chizeled


#3

Thanks for the advice, after reading your post and some more research I am bumping the dosage down on the Adex. As for the Dbol and Clen, you nailed it, I really couldn't decide what I wanted to do. I have always wanted defined abs, but over the past few years I have started to just like the feel of being big(muscular) more. This cycle is my in between phase....not sure which way to pursue. After a little soul searching I decided to drop the Clen. I may not have the perfect Abs, but I will be big and strong! I guess its to each their own. Maybe my goal next year will be to sculpt a little more but for now I just want get big.


#4

One thing I want to advise before you make the same mistake I'm dealing with now. If you ever think you'll want to go down the route of a serious cut (<10% Bf) just remember that the more fat you gain, the more fat cells you form in your body. More and more grow the fatter you get. What happens when you want to cut? You have much more fat cells than you originally started with and it becomes that much harder to cut. THOSE FAT CELLS WILL NEVER GO AWAY ONCE THEY"VE BEEN CREATED.

Not sure if you ever want to cut that much but just a heads up cause I've been dropping down from 16% Bf ( the most fat I've ever had) and it's been really tough. Good luck.

Chizeled


#5

So I took that advice to heart, and after reading a few other posts you had I thought you would be a good person to review what I am attempting. I work overseas and rotate out every 4 months. These four month windows are when I have the opportunity to do cycles/and or make significant changes.

Once I am back stateside it is just maintenance mode(I still work out regularly with cardio, but after being away from the fam for months at a time I have to ration my time). Not to be long winded but before I pitch my idea here is a little information on my current status.

I extended a little so I have about 3.5 months left before I rotate. My overall goal is now to decrease my BF% while trying to maintain/increase muscle if possible, unfortunately my gear is already ordered so I will have to work with what I have. My clenbuterol just arrived and I started a cyclic keto diet about a week ago.

My idea is to run clen and keto together for the next month. I will add in cardio 4 days a week in addition to my lifting routine. I will increase the cyclic keto up to 2 carb up days. After researching the best way to cyclic keto I have come to the conclusion that it would be best to perform carb up #1 before a heavy "lower body" day and carb up #2 before a "heavy upper body day".(Reminiscent of the Layne Norton PHAT workout) I am not sure how best to structure the clen cycle for best results?

After a month I will start my gear cycle. This is where I am having some trouble deciding what is best to do. Here are the materials I have at hand:
Test E
Tbol
Dbol
Proviron
Clenbuterol

I am thinking that after a month of Keto/Clen I can afford to run Dbol/Test E for 4 weeks along with a targeted keto diet and add a little size back on, then switch to Tbol/Test E/Clen for the next 6 weeks with a CKD again. I can also afford two full body workouts during this last phase after carb up, maximizing the results I will get.

Overall I don't expect to add much size, but I think this will maintain muscle and greatly decrease BF. Looking over my available options what would you do? Trust me, no answer you give will offend me, I am still scratching my head at the drawing board on this one!!


#6

I also have some HCG on order, just not sure when it will get here.


#7

You need to ask yourself what you want before I can go and create the ideal cycle for your goal man. Those are some nice compounds you have to work with. From your numbers, I understand how you can be drawn between two different phases. If you think you have the will power to stick to a strict diet, I suggest looking into the 5/2 diet. Not saying that exact diet but something similar so you can accomplish your dream cycle of cutting down some fat and building some lean tissue as well. Let me know when you figure out your goal so I can aid in a much better way. Also the amounts of gear you have would be helpful as well.


#8

If maintaining muscle during a cut is your concern, you'll be more than fine with just Test. Add a little clen in the mix and you can really cut up with a keto diet throughout the cycle. If you wan't to put on some muscle as well, well that's when things get complicated..


#9

going over the thread.

  • .25mg EOD of adex will likely not be sufficient for estrogen control for 700mg test + dbol
  • proviron is not an AI, nor is it suitable as a substitute
  • proviron may not be best to run during pct, as it is an aas
  • hcg is to be run during cycle, not during pct

you appear to be trying to chase two rabbits at once - cutting fat while gaining size.. I would suggest that you commit a solid year (at least) to gaining muscle, and then after that, explore your options regarding fat loss. A friend of mine followed a similar path that you are suggesting... and he wasted a lot of time and gear.


#10

My goal is to lose the BF, If I can add lean muscle during this process I will do whatever it takes to accomplish that. I spent some time going over my over my long-term goals and did more research on the difficulties of cutting at a higher BF. Sure being big is great now, but I cant afford to go up anymore on my BF%. Consequently I rather spend this time setting a foundation that I can maintain and build on later.

I did some reading on the 5/2 diet, IMO it does not see that hard, eat normal for five days then restrict for 2. Do you have a custom 5/2 that you follow that goes into further detail on the (5) days. I have been running the cyclic keto for a few weeks and have seen good results, but I was a little worried about getting enough fuel while on cycle. I will definitely have to research and get a little more info on the 5/2 but on the surface the concept is good.
Basing a diet plan around that concept is very feasible.

The amounts of gear are listed below:
Test E: 8500mg
Dbol: 2000mg
Tbol: 1000mg
Proviron: 1500mg
Clen: 8000mcg
HCG: (In the process of ordering it, just doing some verification first to make sure its good quality)

Thanks again for taking the time to help me out. If you can help me put together a plan that fits these goals, I will commit to it 100%.


#11

As for the 5/2 diet, that was only if you wanted to attempt both goals at once as I have read about it doing so.

As for strictly cutting, I think this might give you what you're looking for:

Week 1-10
Test E @ 250-300mg/wk (2500-3000mg total)

Week 1-12
HCG 250iu 2x/wk

Wks 1-2,5-6,9-10
OTC Fat Burner

Wks 3-4,7-8,11-12,15-16:
Clen - 40/40/40/60/60/60/80-80/80/100/100/100/120/120 (4320mcg total)

PCT
13-13 Clomid @ 100mg daily -- 14-16 Clomid @ 50mg daily
13-14 Nolvadex @ 40mg daily -- 15-16 Nolvadex @ 20mg daily

I believe this cycle along with cardio and a strict CKD should get you down to the 10-12% range if not lower. Don't have too much experience with CKD so can't say forsure. With a full out keto diet this could easily be attainable. I wouldn't be too worried about an AI at this dose but I'd have Adex on hand regardless cause you never know. I don't think you have enough proviron to use for a full cycle or even feel you have a need for proviron either. I'd save it for when you get to lower bodyfat levels. If you want to use it regardless it wouldn't hurt from weeks 4-12 @ 25mg ED. Your call.


Just to put something more advanced in your perspective. If you really felt you'd have the time and strict enough diet to attempt both phases in one cycle. It would have to be a strict keto diet from weeks 1-14 and then attempt the 5/2 diet I spoke of earlier from weeks 15-26 if you fear of gaining some fat during your cycle due to shitty diet. If you can count your macros and keep protein around 1.5-2.5g per lb you should be fine as long as your surplus isn't 1000 over maintenance and consist of crappy quality foods. I'd advise it look something like this.

Wks 7-22
Test @ 400-500mg/wk (6000-7500mg total)

Wks 7-23
Adex @ 0.25mg EOD (bump if bloat still appears)

Wks 1-2, 5-6, 9-10, 13-14
Clen: 40/40/40/60/60/60/80-80/80/100/100/100/120/120 (4320mcg total)

Wks 3-4, 7-8, 11-12
OTC Fat Burner

Wks 15-20
Dbol @ 30-50mg ED

Wks 23-26
Tbol @ 40mg ED

Wks 23-26
Proviron @ 50mg ED

Wks 7-26
HCG @ 250iu 2x/weekly

PCT
27-28 Clomid @ 100mg daily -- 29-30 Clomid @ 50mg daily
27-28 Nolvadex @ 40mg daily -- 29-30 Nolvadex @ 20mg daily

Not even sure if you'd have enough time to run this but realized after I finished the whole thing. Anyways, hope one of either appeal to you. Feel free to ask more questions, I was spoon fed on every topic when I first began AAS so I think its only right others get at least some help if they show they put an effort in seeking some knowledge on their own. Good luck.

Chizeled


#12

Here's what i'd run, based off what you got and what you said:

Week 1:
Test-1000 mg/wk
Proviron-100 mg/day

Week 2:
Test-750 mg/wk
Proviron-100 mg/day

Week 3-10:
Test-500 mg/wk
Proviron-100 mg/day

Week 11-13:
Proviron-100 mg/day

Weeks 14-18+
Nolvadex-20 mg/day

for the clen, taper up to 120 mcg or so.

i'd use it on weeks 5-6, 9-10, 13-14 and 17-18. take ketotifen or benadryl on the week following the clen.....

EDIT: you still may wanna run a-dex with this, if you haven't picked it up yet. for a cycle of this length, i don't think HCG is too important, if you don't have it yet....