T Nation

28 Y/O First Cycle Check

Hi All,

I am 28 and planning to start my first cycle in a few weeks time - collecting everything tomorrow. i would greatly appreciate feedback on this plan as i have come across a lot of conflicting info/opinions.

Week 1-6 Dbol 40mg ED split into AM/PM
Week 1-12 test E 250mg 2/week
Week 1-13 HCG 250iu 2/week
Week 1-14 nolva 10mg ED

Week 15-19 clomid 50mg ED
Week 15-20 nolva ED 40/40/20/20/10

Will also be taking NAC, Milk Thistle and Circumin throughout the cycle.

Initially i also had HCG in my PCT but further research suggests that this is not a good idea and when ran during the cycle is not necessary. Lots of cycles i see use Adex as an AI but i have heard good things about running Nolva as a SERM instead.

Thanks

[quote]pex86 wrote:
Hi All,

I am 28 and planning to start my first cycle in a few weeks time - collecting everything tomorrow. i would greatly appreciate feedback on this plan as i have come across a lot of conflicting info/opinions.

Week 1-6 Dbol 40mg ED split into AM/PM
Week 1-12 test E 250mg 2/week
Week 1-13 HCG 250iu 2/week
Week 1-14 nolva 10mg ED

Week 15-19 clomid 50mg ED
Week 15-20 nolva ED 40/40/20/20/10

Will also be taking NAC, Milk Thistle and Circumin throughout the cycle.

Initially i also had HCG in my PCT but further research suggests that this is not a good idea and when ran during the cycle is not necessary. Lots of cycles i see use Adex as an AI but i have heard good things about running Nolva as a SERM instead.

Thanks
[/quote]

don’t run Nolva on cycle. it doesn’t decrease estrogen aromatization, but simply prevents it from binding to the E receptor. and when you go into your PCT, can cause a number of issues with unresolved high estrogen…

for a first cycle, i generally suggest something like this:

Week 1-10
Test E-500 mg/wk
HCG-500 IU/wk
A-dex-.25 mg/EOD (and adjust as needed)

Week 11
HCG-500 IU/wk
A-dex-.25 mg/EOD (and adjust as needed)

Week 12
A-dex-.25 mg/EOD (and adjust as needed)

Week 13-18
Nolva-20 mg/night

here’s a link that kind of explains some of my rational for PCT:

IMO this isn’t a cycle to your benefit.

First cycle you need to use minimal compounds at once to find out how your body responds. On the contrary, running dbol along side test should not be an issue.

As cyco said, no Nolva on cycle. Actually almost never. Thats overkill and can do more harm than good. Also, don’t run HCG on cycle with test. There is absolutely no reason to. Unless you are running 12+ weeks of a 19 nor such as Deca or Tren, this is unnecessary and will actually suppress your HPTA. And even then, I won’t start blasting HCG til about week 8 of my cycle. So overall, this is what I have done, as well as the vets who taught me, as well as guys I have mentored.

Week 1-5: Dbol 50mg ED
Week 1-12: Test E/C/Prop 500-600mg/ week
(keep adex/aromasin on hand ALWAYS just in case of flair up, don’t take it just to take it)
Week 14: Blast 500iu HCG ED for 10 days (5,000iu total)
72hrs after last HCG pin, start pct.

PCT: Clomid 100/50/50/50

There are a million and one reasons why clomid is better than Nolva, as well as Nolva being outdated in this day and age.
When I run 12+ week cycles with 19 nor’s I run nolva at 20/20/20/20 alongside clomid at 100/100/50/50. This is really only when you are really suppressed and have to prohibit the estrogen binding while letting your natural production take over.

Why would you recommend to never take an ai just to take it and why is clomid better than nolva.

[quote]eatliftsleep wrote:
Why would you recommend to never take an ai just to take it and why is clomid better than nolva. [/quote]

Because people get gung ho on excess testosterone converting to estrogen, when you need sufficient estrogen to grow. That’s like popping advil to prevent pain thats not even there, inducing hypertension and other issues that are completely unnecessary. Don’t pop any AI’s unless you have symptoms of high estrogen, its that simple.

Clomid on the other hand, well if you don’t know how much more clomid benefits you than Nolva, then you gotta do some research (don’t mean that in a rude way. Just way too much to list here). Clomid covers many more bases and is much more effective in stimulating the hypothalamus.

[quote]ChrisArm wrote:

[quote]eatliftsleep wrote:
Why would you recommend to never take an ai just to take it and why is clomid better than nolva. [/quote]

Because people get gung ho on excess testosterone converting to estrogen, when you need sufficient estrogen to grow. That’s like popping advil to prevent pain thats not even there, inducing hypertension and other issues that are completely unnecessary. Don’t pop any AI’s unless you have symptoms of high estrogen, its that simple.

Clomid on the other hand, well if you don’t know how much more clomid benefits you than Nolva, then you gotta do some research (don’t mean that in a rude way. Just way too much to list here). Clomid covers many more bases and is much more effective in stimulating the hypothalamus. [/quote]

What is “sufficient estrogen” for growth? Quanify, please.

the only reason im asking you is because i wanted to hear your opinion, not because I don’t know. There are many more negatives associated with high estrogen other than gyno.

I don’t take pct drugs because I don’t pct so i don’t have any first hand experience with the clomid but on this board I think some of the regular posters are going to disagree with you and provide studies. So it’s not just bro science.

I’ll just wait for BUDS and cycobushmaster to chime in.

[quote]ChrisArm wrote:
IMO this isn’t a cycle to your benefit.

First cycle you need to use minimal compounds at once to find out how your body responds. On the contrary, running dbol along side test should not be an issue.

As cyco said, no Nolva on cycle. Actually almost never. Thats overkill and can do more harm than good. Also, don’t run HCG on cycle with test. There is absolutely no reason to. Unless you are running 12+ weeks of a 19 nor such as Deca or Tren, this is unnecessary and will actually suppress your HPTA. And even then, I won’t start blasting HCG til about week 8 of my cycle. So overall, this is what I have done, as well as the vets who taught me, as well as guys I have mentored.

Week 1-5: Dbol 50mg ED
Week 1-12: Test E/C/Prop 500-600mg/ week
(keep adex/aromasin on hand ALWAYS just in case of flair up, don’t take it just to take it)
Week 14: Blast 500iu HCG ED for 10 days (5,000iu total)
72hrs after last HCG pin, start pct.

PCT: Clomid 100/50/50/50

There are a million and one reasons why clomid is better than Nolva, as well as Nolva being outdated in this day and age.
When I run 12+ week cycles with 19 nor’s I run nolva at 20/20/20/20 alongside clomid at 100/100/50/50. This is really only when you are really suppressed and have to prohibit the estrogen binding while letting your natural production take over.[/quote]

Hcg is absolutely ok to run on a test only cycle. For any duration.

Estrogen plays an important role but there are other side effects of high estrogen that aren’t seen, or felt. Some people need an AI some don’t. That’s why its always good to get bloodwork done, for anyone planning on cycling blood work should always be done. Either way it’s always wise to start at a low dose.

If one chooses not to use one, they should understand that there’s more to it than puffy nips before telling someone who’s looking for info not to run it. Advise them to run on the side of caution and get bloodwork.

Here’s a link to some pct drug info. Too lazy to write more myself.

[quote]eatliftsleep wrote:
the only reason im asking you is because i wanted to hear your opinion, not because I don’t know. There are many more negatives associated with high estrogen other than gyno.

I don’t take pct drugs because I don’t pct so i don’t have any first hand experience with the clomid but on this board I think some of the regular posters are going to disagree with you and provide studies. So it’s not just bro science.

I’ll just wait for BUDS and cycobushmaster to chime in. [/quote]

I guess I should be careful how I state this, because I have witnessed plenty guys who are VERY sensitive to aromatase enzymes and estrogen and puff up and acquire gyno very quickly off minor doses.

My main purpose in saying to avoid an AI at a lower dose like 500mg is that IME, unless I am running 800mg or more of AAS, my levels as well as some others does not convert enough to introduce another compound. Even at 800mg or more I run maybe .5mg apex e3d. and run that through PCT. You need estrogen to grow. And going overboard out of paranoia is just as unsafe as not giving af.

Understand, I am only speaking from personal experience, from what was taught to me, and what has worked for me time and time again. The studies can only take us so far, because every single person reacts to different compounds differently. It helps to shed light on things that have PROVEN to work for yourself so that others can compare notes.

[quote]BUDs wrote:

[quote]ChrisArm wrote:
IMO this isn’t a cycle to your benefit.

First cycle you need to use minimal compounds at once to find out how your body responds. On the contrary, running dbol along side test should not be an issue.

As cyco said, no Nolva on cycle. Actually almost never. Thats overkill and can do more harm than good. Also, don’t run HCG on cycle with test. There is absolutely no reason to. Unless you are running 12+ weeks of a 19 nor such as Deca or Tren, this is unnecessary and will actually suppress your HPTA. And even then, I won’t start blasting HCG til about week 8 of my cycle. So overall, this is what I have done, as well as the vets who taught me, as well as guys I have mentored.

Week 1-5: Dbol 50mg ED
Week 1-12: Test E/C/Prop 500-600mg/ week
(keep adex/aromasin on hand ALWAYS just in case of flair up, don’t take it just to take it)
Week 14: Blast 500iu HCG ED for 10 days (5,000iu total)
72hrs after last HCG pin, start pct.

PCT: Clomid 100/50/50/50

There are a million and one reasons why clomid is better than Nolva, as well as Nolva being outdated in this day and age.
When I run 12+ week cycles with 19 nor’s I run nolva at 20/20/20/20 alongside clomid at 100/100/50/50. This is really only when you are really suppressed and have to prohibit the estrogen binding while letting your natural production take over.[/quote]

Hcg is absolutely ok to run on a test only cycle. For any duration.

Estrogen plays an important role but there are other side effects of high estrogen that aren’t seen, or felt. Some people need an AI some don’t. That’s why its always good to get bloodwork done, for anyone planning on cycling blood work should always be done. Either way it’s always wise to start at a low dose.

If one chooses not to use one, they should understand that there’s more to it than puffy nips before telling someone who’s looking for info not to run it. Advise them to run on the side of caution and get bloodwork.

Here’s a link to some pct drug info. Too lazy to write more myself.

This ^^^

I didn’t mean HCG isn’t ok to run either. Just a waste IMO.

Dont shut down your natural HPTA more than it already is. blast it when you need to revive it and let it come back to life. I ran HCG during a 10 week prop/dbol cycle and it didn’t do shit for me in the end.

I am personally better off blasting for 10 days after I’ve cleared, then starting PCT 72 hrs later with an AI in the mix.

[quote]ChrisArm wrote:

[quote]eatliftsleep wrote:
the only reason im asking you is because i wanted to hear your opinion, not because I don’t know. There are many more negatives associated with high estrogen other than gyno.

I don’t take pct drugs because I don’t pct so i don’t have any first hand experience with the clomid but on this board I think some of the regular posters are going to disagree with you and provide studies. So it’s not just bro science.

I’ll just wait for BUDS and cycobushmaster to chime in. [/quote]

I guess I should be careful how I state this, because I have witnessed plenty guys who are VERY sensitive to aromatase enzymes and estrogen and puff up and acquire gyno very quickly off minor doses.

My main purpose in saying to avoid an AI at a lower dose like 500mg is that IME, unless I am running 800mg or more of AAS, my levels as well as some others does not convert enough to introduce another compound. Even at 800mg or more I run maybe .5mg apex e3d. and run that through PCT. You need estrogen to grow. And going overboard out of paranoia is just as unsafe as not giving af.

Understand, I am only speaking from personal experience, from what was taught to me, and what has worked for me time and time again. The studies can only take us so far, because every single person reacts to different compounds differently. It helps to shed light on things that have PROVEN to work for yourself so that others can compare notes. [/quote]

Then you should be more careful on how you word your posts to begin with.

[quote]ChrisArm wrote:
IMO this isn’t a cycle to your benefit.

First cycle you need to use minimal compounds at once to find out how your body responds. On the contrary, running dbol along side test should not be an issue.

As cyco said, no Nolva on cycle. Actually almost never. Thats overkill and can do more harm than good. Also, don’t run HCG on cycle with test. There is absolutely no reason to. Unless you are running 12+ weeks of a 19 nor such as Deca or Tren, this is unnecessary and will actually suppress your HPTA. And even then, I won’t start blasting HCG til about week 8 of my cycle. So overall, this is what I have done, as well as the vets who taught me, as well as guys I have mentored.

Week 1-5: Dbol 50mg ED
Week 1-12: Test E/C/Prop 500-600mg/ week
(keep adex/aromasin on hand ALWAYS just in case of flair up, don’t take it just to take it)
Week 14: Blast 500iu HCG ED for 10 days (5,000iu total)
72hrs after last HCG pin, start pct.

PCT: Clomid 100/50/50/50

There are a million and one reasons why clomid is better than Nolva, as well as Nolva being outdated in this day and age.
When I run 12+ week cycles with 19 nor’s I run nolva at 20/20/20/20 alongside clomid at 100/100/50/50. This is really only when you are really suppressed and have to prohibit the estrogen binding while letting your natural production take over.[/quote]

stop.

you are wrong about so many things here…

yes, HCG will cause suppression to the hypothalamus and pituitary (but not the testes), but SO WILL THE FUCKING TESTOSTERONE! you’re taking HCG to maintain testicular responsiveness, so you will respond better to your own LH later and PCT will go smoother. and if doesn’t matter if you’re on a progestin based steroid or not… (and you need to manage prolactin there, as well.)

as far as clomid being better than nolva, explain why it takes 150 mg of clomid to be comparable to nolvadex? and more importantly, are you aware that Clomid actually DECREASES the body’s responsiveness to GnRH, whereas Nolva increases it? ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/640052 )

and we use AI’s on cycle, because estrogen is several hundred times more suppressive to the HPTA than testosterone. so if you end a cycle with high estrogen, you simply can’t recover.

i’m not even gonna get into the multiple SERM stack crap…

you need to do some reading, plain and simple.

[quote]ChrisArm wrote:

[quote]BUDs wrote:

[quote]ChrisArm wrote:
IMO this isn’t a cycle to your benefit.

First cycle you need to use minimal compounds at once to find out how your body responds. On the contrary, running dbol along side test should not be an issue.

As cyco said, no Nolva on cycle. Actually almost never. Thats overkill and can do more harm than good. Also, don’t run HCG on cycle with test. There is absolutely no reason to. Unless you are running 12+ weeks of a 19 nor such as Deca or Tren, this is unnecessary and will actually suppress your HPTA. And even then, I won’t start blasting HCG til about week 8 of my cycle. So overall, this is what I have done, as well as the vets who taught me, as well as guys I have mentored.

Week 1-5: Dbol 50mg ED
Week 1-12: Test E/C/Prop 500-600mg/ week
(keep adex/aromasin on hand ALWAYS just in case of flair up, don’t take it just to take it)
Week 14: Blast 500iu HCG ED for 10 days (5,000iu total)
72hrs after last HCG pin, start pct.

PCT: Clomid 100/50/50/50

There are a million and one reasons why clomid is better than Nolva, as well as Nolva being outdated in this day and age.
When I run 12+ week cycles with 19 nor’s I run nolva at 20/20/20/20 alongside clomid at 100/100/50/50. This is really only when you are really suppressed and have to prohibit the estrogen binding while letting your natural production take over.[/quote]

Hcg is absolutely ok to run on a test only cycle. For any duration.

Estrogen plays an important role but there are other side effects of high estrogen that aren’t seen, or felt. Some people need an AI some don’t. That’s why its always good to get bloodwork done, for anyone planning on cycling blood work should always be done. Either way it’s always wise to start at a low dose.

If one chooses not to use one, they should understand that there’s more to it than puffy nips before telling someone who’s looking for info not to run it. Advise them to run on the side of caution and get bloodwork.

Here’s a link to some pct drug info. Too lazy to write more myself.

This ^^^

I didn’t mean HCG isn’t ok to run either. Just a waste IMO.

Dont shut down your natural HPTA more than it already is. blast it when you need to revive it and let it come back to life. I ran HCG during a 10 week prop/dbol cycle and it didn’t do shit for me in the end.

I am personally better off blasting for 10 days after I’ve cleared, then starting PCT 72 hrs later with an AI in the mix.

[/quote]

Ok now you’re all over the place and back peddling.

Hcg isn’t going to supress your HPTA anymore, nor does it revive your HPTA. It simply mimics LH and keeps your testes “active” and prevents atrophy in the first place, making your testes better off when it comes time for your body to start making testosterone again.

Don’t say don’t do this and that, then in another post state that’s your opinion.

State it as your opinion in the first place. But before you start handing out advice know that some newbie might just breeze through your post and follow what you say, when we should all be pointing out ways that work or the safer ways to do things, or the potential risks of doing or not doing certain things.

In short you can say YOU don’t run an AI but it’s always good to start low or get bloodwork for his reason…etc…etc

Or I PERSONALLY run hcg like thia because…but it also can be run like this…etc or most people use it this way…

[quote]BUDs wrote:

[quote]ChrisArm wrote:

[quote]BUDs wrote:

[quote]ChrisArm wrote:
IMO this isn’t a cycle to your benefit.

First cycle you need to use minimal compounds at once to find out how your body responds. On the contrary, running dbol along side test should not be an issue.

As cyco said, no Nolva on cycle. Actually almost never. Thats overkill and can do more harm than good. Also, don’t run HCG on cycle with test. There is absolutely no reason to. Unless you are running 12+ weeks of a 19 nor such as Deca or Tren, this is unnecessary and will actually suppress your HPTA. And even then, I won’t start blasting HCG til about week 8 of my cycle. So overall, this is what I have done, as well as the vets who taught me, as well as guys I have mentored.

Week 1-5: Dbol 50mg ED
Week 1-12: Test E/C/Prop 500-600mg/ week
(keep adex/aromasin on hand ALWAYS just in case of flair up, don’t take it just to take it)
Week 14: Blast 500iu HCG ED for 10 days (5,000iu total)
72hrs after last HCG pin, start pct.

PCT: Clomid 100/50/50/50

There are a million and one reasons why clomid is better than Nolva, as well as Nolva being outdated in this day and age.
When I run 12+ week cycles with 19 nor’s I run nolva at 20/20/20/20 alongside clomid at 100/100/50/50. This is really only when you are really suppressed and have to prohibit the estrogen binding while letting your natural production take over.[/quote]

Hcg is absolutely ok to run on a test only cycle. For any duration.

Estrogen plays an important role but there are other side effects of high estrogen that aren’t seen, or felt. Some people need an AI some don’t. That’s why its always good to get bloodwork done, for anyone planning on cycling blood work should always be done. Either way it’s always wise to start at a low dose.

If one chooses not to use one, they should understand that there’s more to it than puffy nips before telling someone who’s looking for info not to run it. Advise them to run on the side of caution and get bloodwork.

Here’s a link to some pct drug info. Too lazy to write more myself.

This ^^^

I didn’t mean HCG isn’t ok to run either. Just a waste IMO.

Dont shut down your natural HPTA more than it already is. blast it when you need to revive it and let it come back to life. I ran HCG during a 10 week prop/dbol cycle and it didn’t do shit for me in the end.

I am personally better off blasting for 10 days after I’ve cleared, then starting PCT 72 hrs later with an AI in the mix.

[/quote]

Ok now you’re all over the place and back peddling.

Hcg isn’t going to supress your HPTA anymore, nor does it revive your HPTA. It simply mimics LH and keeps your testes “active” and prevents atrophy in the first place, making your testes better off when it comes time for your body to start making testosterone again.

Don’t say don’t do this and that, then in another post state that’s your opinion.

State it as your opinion in the first place. But before you start handing out advice know that some newbie might just breeze through your post and follow what you say, when we should all be pointing out ways that work or the safer ways to do things, or the potential risks of doing or not doing certain things.

In short you can say YOU don’t run an AI but it’s always good to start low or get bloodwork for his reason…etc…etc

Or I PERSONALLY run hcg like thia because…but it also can be run like this…etc or most people use it this way…
[/quote]

^i agree 100%.

one of the issues with internet forums is that people feel that they can give advice on relatively important issues, but due to the anonymity, remain blame-free when the user suffers from the side effects and repercussions.

this is largely why i’m so anal about posting sources/references to real data, so if someone doesn’t trust me, at least they know where to seek the information i came up with…

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]BUDs wrote:

[quote]ChrisArm wrote:

[quote]BUDs wrote:

[quote]ChrisArm wrote:
IMO this isn’t a cycle to your benefit.

First cycle you need to use minimal compounds at once to find out how your body responds. On the contrary, running dbol along side test should not be an issue.

As cyco said, no Nolva on cycle. Actually almost never. Thats overkill and can do more harm than good. Also, don’t run HCG on cycle with test. There is absolutely no reason to. Unless you are running 12+ weeks of a 19 nor such as Deca or Tren, this is unnecessary and will actually suppress your HPTA. And even then, I won’t start blasting HCG til about week 8 of my cycle. So overall, this is what I have done, as well as the vets who taught me, as well as guys I have mentored.

Week 1-5: Dbol 50mg ED
Week 1-12: Test E/C/Prop 500-600mg/ week
(keep adex/aromasin on hand ALWAYS just in case of flair up, don’t take it just to take it)
Week 14: Blast 500iu HCG ED for 10 days (5,000iu total)
72hrs after last HCG pin, start pct.

PCT: Clomid 100/50/50/50

There are a million and one reasons why clomid is better than Nolva, as well as Nolva being outdated in this day and age.
When I run 12+ week cycles with 19 nor’s I run nolva at 20/20/20/20 alongside clomid at 100/100/50/50. This is really only when you are really suppressed and have to prohibit the estrogen binding while letting your natural production take over.[/quote]

Hcg is absolutely ok to run on a test only cycle. For any duration.

Estrogen plays an important role but there are other side effects of high estrogen that aren’t seen, or felt. Some people need an AI some don’t. That’s why its always good to get bloodwork done, for anyone planning on cycling blood work should always be done. Either way it’s always wise to start at a low dose.

If one chooses not to use one, they should understand that there’s more to it than puffy nips before telling someone who’s looking for info not to run it. Advise them to run on the side of caution and get bloodwork.

Here’s a link to some pct drug info. Too lazy to write more myself.

This ^^^

I didn’t mean HCG isn’t ok to run either. Just a waste IMO.

Dont shut down your natural HPTA more than it already is. blast it when you need to revive it and let it come back to life. I ran HCG during a 10 week prop/dbol cycle and it didn’t do shit for me in the end.

I am personally better off blasting for 10 days after I’ve cleared, then starting PCT 72 hrs later with an AI in the mix.

[/quote]

Ok now you’re all over the place and back peddling.

Hcg isn’t going to supress your HPTA anymore, nor does it revive your HPTA. It simply mimics LH and keeps your testes “active” and prevents atrophy in the first place, making your testes better off when it comes time for your body to start making testosterone again.

Don’t say don’t do this and that, then in another post state that’s your opinion.

State it as your opinion in the first place. But before you start handing out advice know that some newbie might just breeze through your post and follow what you say, when we should all be pointing out ways that work or the safer ways to do things, or the potential risks of doing or not doing certain things.

In short you can say YOU don’t run an AI but it’s always good to start low or get bloodwork for his reason…etc…etc

Or I PERSONALLY run hcg like thia because…but it also can be run like this…etc or most people use it this way…
[/quote]

^i agree 100%.

one of the issues with internet forums is that people feel that they can give advice on relatively important issues, but due to the anonymity, remain blame-free when the user suffers from the side effects and repercussions.

this is largely why i’m so anal about posting sources/references to real data, so if someone doesn’t trust me, at least they know where to seek the information i came up with…[/quote]

I know I can at least say, probably for most, that the links you provide are very appreciated.

I know I’m not the smartest or the guy with every answer, but I’ve ran a lot of shit, experimented with things and doses and have always stayed on top of getting bloodwork. So what I have to offer is my experiences with what I’ve done, but I always state that it’s from my experience. But Its not to say I don’t keep up with learning things and helping from what I’ve learned

In my opinion you should run test only. Make sure how your body reacts if all is good next cycle throw in dbol, but that’s just my opinion… I like knowing exactly how my body reacts to each compound before I start mixing them.

Other than that as already stated don’t run nolva on cycle. Run adex or letrozole. Dosage depends on you but a good place to start letro .25 eod, adex .5 eod. Personally I am running prop only 100mg ed and I am not running an AI or HCG, then again I have got absolutely no symptoms. I got blood work prior to cycle and am getting bloodwork every 2 weeks to keep estrogen and test levels in check. (In no way am I telling you not to run an AI or HCG on cycle, like several had mentioned it is better to be cautious).

[quote]BUDs wrote:

I know I can at least say, probably for most, that the links you provide are very appreciated.

[/quote]

I second this. The links are appreciated.