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25yr old. Clomid 12.5mg M,W,F +Arimidix?

 Just hoping i can invite you along on my magic carpet ride taking SERMS.  Will provide good self analysis- donâ??t take any drugs(or the RX kind that change your mood) so hopefully can be a good objective judge of the sides from clomid.  I donâ??t take tampering with my bodys systems lightly, thast why im making this thread in the hope that those knowledgeable posters can share some words of wisdom; like Doctor Ksman.     

About me:
25,6â??4â?? 184, low body fat, no history of steroid or prohomones use. Had bloodwork for total Testosterone done this year : 424. I know, very limited test but no other variables were available. After 2.5 months of this protocol-i will retest and hopefully get more values. Going to go with 12.5mg clomid mwf â??after awhile add some low dose arimidex

Things i BELEIVE i know

1)Serms should be taperd off when ending use.
2)People respond with different sensitivity to clomid. Thats why going with the low dose.
3) E2 eventually gets to high, often a doc will prescribe a AI to add at this point.
4)very hard to get an accurate reading of E2 while taking clomid

How soon after starting the clomid protocol should i add the small dose of arimidix?

Sources:

I can’t wait to hear your results.

I took clomid 25 mg every other day and believe that was more than needed… For about 6 months
I felt ok for about 3 months and started to decline in the way I felt. Rapidly after that. Did bloods
E2 showed up at about 75 at a scale up to 40 or so.

I tried aromasin and that made me feel worse…
I dropped the clomid and felt better in a week or so.

I may try again at less dosage…
Your dosage sounds really good…

My total test went from around 450 to 600 so with e2 in check I’d bet I would have been much higher

        Awhile ago i posted some results of bloodwork done in my early 20;s.  My levels was scraping the bottom of the range and of course got a message on the answering machine from a fat receptionist eating cheetos saying?sir your with in the normal range, have a good day?.  I didn?t expect anybody to give a dam then or now.  Thats why i created this thread; in the hopes of clarifying the knowledge I can gather to treat ourselves and hopefully its useful to all who stumble down this thread.

My internet sucks donkey dick but will try to copy and paste excerpts here that seem relevant. Helps to keep alot of these different hormone variables and how they interact with each other straight in your head. Thanks Mac, curious why started to crash at 6mo mark.

This link shows why decided to low dose it

MOds have said the link cant be put here but if you search “Clomid 12.5mg m,w,f” the first result should have more info on this dosing as well as the added Arimidex.

		                            Excerpts relating to this.

dhickey “Blood work will tell the story. My E2 rose with T, which would definitely counteract any benefit of increased T. If T and E rise, you can try knocking E down and see how you feel. Worse case it will provide some diagnostic info. If LH/FSH are high but T is low, you know you are primary and need to look at replacement. If LH/FSH are still low, you can probably assume you are secondary.”

KSman: "Do not ever do a dead stop on a SERM, always taper off!
When on SERM, test LH, FSH, T and FT.

  • if LH/FSH still low, top end of HPTA is broken, start TRT
  • if LH/FSH good and T low, testes not working, start TRT

LH/FSH should increase quite fast. However, the testes take time as physical changes need to occur, so do not rush T testing. If DHEA-S is low, DHEA–>T may be limited.

If SERM dose is too high, LH will be high. There are two risks. One is desensitization of the LH receptors. Second, T–>E2 inside the testes can be very high and competitive AI’s cannot control that. Suggest 1/2 dose SERM dosing."

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_trt/estradiol_why_you_should_care The first post about E2 worth reading. Have read many time that E2 cant be accurately tested while on clomid.

                     QUESTiONs

1)Whens the correct time to add Arimidix to the clomid use? I understand people respond with different sensitivity to AI and SERMS. I believe generally, if your on the young side then youll be more sensitive and need less of a dose? I was thinking of starting to add Arimidix after 2 weeks of clomid use. Not sure to go with .25mg EOD or .25mg every 3rd day .

2)Has any protocol(or length of time) been shown most likely to result in elevated Test levels after tapering off everything?

3)Clomid use for multiple months results in desensitizing the pituitary to GnRH?
Im guessing this is a problem mostly associated with “SERM dose is too high, LH will be high. There are two risks. One is desensitization of the LH receptors.” Another reason to low dose.

“One other side effect of Clomid to keep in mind is that over the long term, and especially at higher dosages, the pituitary gland is desensitized to GnRH. Therefore, a short run of low dose Clomid,if successful in increasing testosterone production, is best looked at as a way to kick start the hypothalamus and pituitary gland into successfully working at full potential”

  1. How long to wait before getting bloodwork to test the results, im thinking around 2 months?

  2. Best hour to take Arimidix? Probably will take clomid around 10am… Take the AI same day as clomid or not?

Great accumulation of information…

#1 - I believe that I started to feel shitty because my E2 got out of range… I did confirm with Bloods… And did some tapper…
I was taking 25MG EOD and then went twice weekly for a week or so and then once weekly for a week or so…

#2 - My LIBIDO was high even though my E2 was roughly 2.5 times what most feel good at. This was possible because of my
elevated LH… Was slighly above normal range… 12 or 13…

#3 - I tried an AI blocker but need relief fast so didn’t stick with it since it also made me feel poor. Being my E2 was high

#4 - once I stopped my energy went up and my lifts got stronger even though my Total T and Free T was low… I think this just goes to show
how shitty one can feel with high levels of E2. I have since learned that maybe once I stopped the clomid and my E2 was still high that
maybe my Axis was being told to hold OFF on the T production since my E2 was still elevated… ( I don’t know how to word this correctly)
but may try a SERM again on an ever lower dose… 12 M,W,F sounds good.

#5 - The bloods I did almost exactly 4 weeks after my last clomid showed LOW T and E2 was at about 27… or so…

BTW - I have been back on TRT for abourt 2 weeks… 100MG test E . 50mg Sunday morning… 50mg Wednesday night…
I just found some on-line HCG and will take this and come winter try something else… I also have some liquid arimidex onhand
and might try if needed

I would love to hear your updates

Kyle

Havent started anything yet. Seems Adex is started the same time as clomid usually-will try to add it second week.

Any info on clomid desensitizing the pituitary to GnRH at low doses for multiple months?

[quote]ectonoob wrote:
Any info on clomid desensitizing the pituitary to GnRH at low doses for multiple months?[/quote]

Never heard of or considered. But norma dose SERMs will cause pulsatile release of GnRH so there should not be a problem.

You have read carefully. Why are you not considering nolvadex? It would not cross effect E2 labs. I do not know how much of an issue there with clomid doing that, but can see how it would be a issue when testing the effectiveness of a SERM in trying to zero out E2 when treating estrogen sensitive female cancers.

KSman-the beast, the legend! Thanks for stopping by. I know you usually recommend the Novalex over clomid- it wont be fair to say that Novalex doesn?t come with sides tho. All theory aside- i can get clomid nearby and cheaply-not sure about Nova. I know that Nova is a stronger SERM-anyway 12.5mg EOD is pretty weak.

To translate that to a similar Nova dose, that would be 3-4mgEOD, hard to cut a pill down to that size. (basing that comment after reading a few places where the dose of nova was 3x smaller to achieve similar results)

Found these lovely numbers below

"Be careful w/ the serms. I have serious damage to my vision from using nolva. I chose Nolva because it was suppose to NOT have the side effects of clomid. I was mainly worried about the permanent vision problems that I read Clomid could cause.

Well it’s been over a year since I got off the Nolva and my vision is not the same. I had PERFECT and I mean PERFECT vision before the Nolva. Within a week of taking it I got the blurry cloudy vision. My ability to see color was hurt too. everything looks dull and washed out. My night vision took a BIG hit and on top I see huge halos now when I see lights at night (as in other car’s headlights and street lights).

I didn’t think this was even possible w/ Nolva, but I did ALOT of digging around on the internet regarding Nolva after my vision problems. Turns out ( surprise surprise)Nolva causes all sorts visual problems in more people than I thought. Corneal changes, cararacts, colors. For some reason nobody talks about this and it is rare on bodybuilding sites, but I have found one other person on another site who’s vision took a big hit from the Nolva.

If you don’t beleive me do your own research on Nolva and it’s effects on research. PLENTY of places on the net list it as a side effect to this medicine.

Have also read a few cases where after tapering off SERMs, baseline T levels were lower than pre treatment. In most cases they seem to be about the same tho. Am i correct there? or does using SERMS run the risk of lower than pretreatment baseline T levels when off everything.

2)Has any protocol(or length of time) been shown most likely to result in elevated Test levels after tapering off everything?