T Nation

25 Years Old, Path to Optimal Levels


#1

-age 25
-height 5'11
-waist Do not know
-weight 190-195

-describe body and facial hair / Body hair I have it. Facial hair sparse on my cheeks and chin cannot grow a beard or mustache still have peach fuzz or uncolored hair mixed with colored hair.

-describe where you carry fat and how changed / Gut, pecs,hips

-health conditions, symptoms [history] ear surgery, two hernia operations all under the age of 6....currently dealing with something in my collarbone region/shoulders..thinking it could maybe be TOS(thoracic outlet syndrome) will be getting a scan within the next 2 weeks. Erections are far from great and have been that way for a few years,low energy:fall a sleep after eating 50-60% of the time lol,sex drive...nope not really, far from what I used to be when I was younger I pretty much consider my prime 11-15 years old. any more questions please ask.

-Rx and OTC drugs, any hair loss drugs 0or prostate drugs ever not currently on any medications, only take Aleve for headaches/body aches.

-lab results with ranges
Taken on July/25/2014 10:14am
Free Testosterone(8.81) 3.8-34.2 pg/ml
Total Testosterone(323) 175-781 ng/ml
TSH 3rd Gen(1.611) 0.350-5.500 miu/ml
Cholesterol(173) 120-200 mg/dl
Cholesterol HDL(43) >40.0 mg/dl
Non HDL cholesterol(130) <160 mg/dl
T.Chol/HDL Ratio (4.0 L) ratio 4.2-5.8
Cholesterol VLDL(18) 14-35 mg/dl
Cholesterol LDL(112) < 130 mg/dl
Triglycerides (88) <150 mg/dl

I have comp metabolic panel and complete blood count if needed I will type it out.

-describe diet. Vegetables,Chicken,Steak,Salads...mixed with processed stuff not the best diet but far from an atrocity.

-describe training. I started working out off and on at 10 or 11 got more serious at 13-14 years old was never overly consistent with a set schedule but was always active playing sports riding motor cycles, skateboarding,wrestling/sparring and of course lifting weights...about 20 -21 my interest started to fade still would do some stuff here and but really wouldn't add anything to my health for how little I did the last several years haven't done nothing my interest is still there from time to time but nothing like it used to be.

-testes ache, ever, with a fever? Yes every now and then they will not much reason for it, don't think I had a fever when it happened...16-17 they ached for a few weeks never went to the doc to check the situation.

-how have morning wood and nocturnal erections changed. Not a regular thing for me maybe a couple times a week for morning wood...other erections nope...not unless I am purposely trying to get one and they are far from great, I guess you would say partials 60-75% is the norm I would say.

plan on requesting another round Of Blood work after my scan...would like input on what to get tested,let me know if I should add something or replace with something else.
CMP/CBC
FT
TT
E2
TSH/FSH
prolactin
LH
SHBG
Pregnenolone
Vit D


#2

Not LH, FSH/LH!

TSH/FSH do not belong together, not related

More lab info with ranges if available:
CBC
RBC
ferritin
serum iron
fasting glucose

As well as TSH, take your body temperature when you first wake up and in mid-afternoon.
Have you always used iodized salt?
see thyroid basics sticky

Waist: what size jeans do you wear, should be on printed somewhere.


#3

Don’t have access to a thermometer at the moment but will try to get one soon.

I wear a size 33…I have a tape measure around…will post numbers once I come across it.

The salt that is currently in the house does not Have Iodide in it…I never really payed much attention to rather or not I was consuming Iodized salt, I know we have used the Morton brand but haven’t for some time.

TSH 3rd Gen levels were (1.611) 0.350 - 5.500 mIU/ml

CBC

WBC (4.7) 4.5 - 11.5 (1000/cmm)

RBC (5.50) 4.50 - 5.90 mil./cmm

Hemoglobin (16.4) 13.5 - 17.5 gm/dl

Hematocrit (48.1) 41.0 - 53.0

MCV (87.5) 76.0 - 96.0 fl

MCH (29.8) 27.0 - 32.0 pg

MCHC (34.1) 31.6 - 37.0 gm/dl

Red Cell Dist Width (12.7) 11.5 - 14.5 %

Platelet Count (192) 150 - 400 (1000/cmm)

Mean Platelet Volume (10.0) 7.4 - 10.4 fl

Neutrophils (55.6) 16.0 - 78.0 %

Lymphocytes (30.9) 9.0 - 42.0 %

Monocytes (8.7) 2.0 - 14.0 %

Eosinophils (55.6) 16.0 - 78.0 %

Basophils (0.4) 0.0 - 2.0 %

Neutrophils Absolute (2.6) 1.4 - 7.2 (1000/cmm)

Lymphs Absolute (1.5) 0.4 - 4.8 (1000/cmm)

Monos Absolute (0.4) 0.2 - 1.6 (1000/cmm)

Eosinophils Absolute (0.2) 0.0 - 0.7 (1000/cmm)

Basophils Absolute (0.0) 0.0 - 0.4 (1000/cmm)

COMP METABOLIC PANEL

Glucose (81) 65 - 99 mg/dl

Blood Urea Nitrogen (BUN) (8) 6 - 22 mg/dl

Creatinine (1.1) 0.5 - 1.6 mg/dl

Sodium (143) 135 - 145 mEq/L

Potassium (4.1) 3.4 - 5.2 mEq/L

Chloride (105) 98 - 108 mEq/L

Carbon Dioxide (27) 22 - 30 mEq/L

Calcium (9.8) 8.6 - 10.3 gm/dl

Protein Total (7.3) 5.9 - 8.4 gm/dl

Albumin (4.7) 3.5 - 5.2 gm/dl

Globulin (2.6) 2.0 - 3.7 gm/dl

Albumin/Globulin Ratio (1.8) 1.0 - 2.6 Ratio

Alkaline Phosphatase (69) 50 - 123 IU/L

Bilirubin Total (0.6) 0.2 - 1.3 mg/dl

AST (SGOT) (17) 2 - 50 IU/L

ALT (SGPT) (26) 2 - 45 IU/L

BUN/Creatinine Ratio (7) 10 - 24 Ratio

Anion Gap (15) 10 - 18 mEq/L

GFR Non African American >60 >=60
GFR African American >60 >=60


#4

DELETE


#5

“DELETE”


#6

I received my blood work results Tuesday evening, didn’t talk to the Doctor just got a copy of my labs…this will be the fourth time I have tried to post this Sh** ,not sure why its not going through…I have CBC,CMP,LIPID PANEL, I am leaving that out to see if my post will go through, If it does I will edit it in. I will see my doctor on the 18th this month

Date collected 2/24/2015 9:05am

Total Testosterone ( 239 ) Range 175 - 781 pg/ml

Free Testosterone ( 6.70 ) Range 3.8 - 34.2 mIU/ml

Estradiol 17 Beta ( <20 ) Range 0 - 47 pg/ml

FSH ( <2.0 ) Range 1.3 - 19.3 mIU/ml

LH ( 1.9 ) Range 1.2 - 8.6 mIU/ml

Prolactin ( 6.3 ) Range 2.6 - 13.1 ng/ml

TSH 3rd Gen ( 1.689 ) Range 0.350 - 5.500 mIU/ml

T-3 Free ( 3.62 ) Range 2.50 - 3.90 pg/ml

T-4 Free ( 1.24 ) Range 0.89 - 1.76 ng/ml

Vit D 25-OH ( 22.6 ) Range 30 - 100 ng/ml FLAGGED

IGF-1 ( 185 ) Range 97 - 330 NG/ML


#7

Body temperatures?


#8

Hey KSman, I Will be buying a thermometer today.

Can you tell me if my levels seem to be ok or not so great, I know that you have said TSH closer to 1 is better but overall from what I have seen and read my thyroid levels don’t seem to be all that bad…I will be picking up some iodized salt to add to my diet. Making it a point to get more sun light and will probably buy a multi Vitamin and VitD3 supplement. I could not find much info on FSH/Lh levels for guys so I don’t know what optimal levels are for that or prolactin. I will add in the rest of my labs below. Thanks for your time and hope you are able to answer my questions.

Date collected 2/24/2015 9:05am
Complete Blood Count

WBC ( 6.2 ) 4.5 - 11.5 (1000/cmm)

RBC ( 5.49 ) 4.50 - 5.90 mil./cmm

Hemoglobin ( 16.6 ) 13.5 - 17.5 gm/dl

Hematocrit ( 47.6 ) 41.0 - 53.0

MCV ( 86.7 ) 76.0 - 96.0 fl

MCH ( 30.2 ) 27.0 - 32.0 pg

MCHC ( 34.9 ) 31.6 - 37.0 gm/dl

Red Cell Dist Width ( 12.8 ) 11.5 - 14.5 %

Platelet Count ( 201 ) 150 - 400 (1000/cmm)

Mean Platelet Volume ( 9.6 ) 7.4 - 10.4 fl

Neutrophils ( 56.3 ) 16.0 - 78.0 %

Lymphocytes ( 29.0 ) 9.0 - 42.0 %

Monocytes ( 10.1 ) 2.0 - 14.0 %

Eosinophils ( 4.0 ) 0.0 - 6.0 %

Basophils ( 0.6 ) 0.0 - 2.0 %

Neutrophils Absolute ( 3.5 ) 1.4 - 7.2 (1000/cmm)

Lymphs Absolute ( 1.8 ) 0.4 - 4.8 (1000/cmm)

Monos Absolute ( 0.6 ) 0.2 - 1.6 (1000/cmm)

Eosinophils Absolute ( 0.3 ) 0.0 - 0.7 (1000/cmm)

Basophils Absolute ( 0.0 ) 0.0 - 0.4 (1000/cmm)

COMP METABOLIC PANEL

Glucose ( 97 ) 65 - 99 mg/dl

Blood Urea Nitrogen (BUN) ( 10 ) 6 - 22 mg/dl

Creatinine ( 1.2 ) 0.5 - 1.6 mg/dl

Sodium ( 142 ) 135 - 145 mEq/L

Potassium ( 4.0 ) 3.4 - 5.2 mEq/L

Chloride ( 104 ) 98 - 108 mEq/L

Carbon Dioxide ( 24 ) 22 - 30 mEq/L

Calcium ( 9.8 ) 8.6 - 10.3 gm/dl

Protein Total ( 7.6 ) 5.9 - 8.4 gm/dl

Albumin ( 4.7 ) 3.5 - 5.2 gm/dl

Globulin ( 2.9 ) 2.0 - 3.7 gm/dl

Albumin/Globulin Ratio ( 1.6 ) 1.0 - 2.6 Ratio

Alkaline Phosphatase ( 71 ) 50 - 123 IU/L

Bilirubin Total ( 0.5 ) 0.2 - 1.3 mg/dl

AST (SGOT) ( 20 ) 2 - 50 IU/L

ALT (SGPT) ( 27 ) 2 - 45 IU/L

BUN/Creatinine Ratio ( 8 ) 10 - 24 Ratio FLAGGED

Anion Gap ( 18 ) 10 - 18 mEq/L

GFR Non African American >60 >=60
GFR African American >60 >=60

LIPID PANEL

Triglycerides ( 101 )

Cholesterol ( 174 ) Range 120 - 200 mg/dl

Cholesterol-HDL ( 39 ) >40 mg/dl FLAGGED

Non HDL Cholesterol ( 135 ) Range <160 mg/dl

T.Chol / HDL Ratio ( 4.5 ) Ratio 4.2 - 5.8

Cholesterol VLDL ( 20 ) Range 14 - 35 mg/dl

Cholesterol LDL ( 115 ) Range <130 mg/dl


#9

3/8/15
7:11am 96.4-96.6?
10:21am 98.2
12:45pm 98.6

3/9/15
7:23am 97
10:43pm 98.4

3/11/15
6:43am 97.2
8.19pm 98.8

3/12/15
7:50am 97.3 or 97.4 kind of hard to read it.
10:35am 98.2
1:20pm 98.4
6:08pm 98.4

3/13/15
6:50am 96.8
8:25am 98.8
12:15pm 98.7

3/14/15
7:30am 97.1
1:50pm 98.5

3/15/15
8:00am 97.6


#10

so my numbers indicate secondary hypogonadism correct? I have had a few MRI’s and CT scans of my head over the last 6-7 years the last MRI being in I believe in September 2013 so I don’t believe it would be any tumor or anything of that nature…while I am on this subject I will mention I have Arnold Chiari type 1…wanted to put that here while I remembered. I also want to say, thinking back when my nuts hurt for those couple of weeks when I was 16, I was doing meth at the time, didn’t do it for very long maybe 6 months or so, I know that this should probably go into my first post but oh well. Think maybe my experimental drug use could be the cause?

If I am sent to a Endo what other tests are they gonna do that my Regular doctor couldn’t order up?

so far still have my doc app scheduled for this week on the 18th


#11

<-- Not a doctor.

Really odd to see young people fishing to be told that something is wrong so that they can go on TRT. OP, your posts seem to be fishing for someone to say “Yes, you should go on TRT” despite the fact that your blood values are essentially within normal range except for your cholesterol levels… And this is doubly concerning given that you have a history that includes drug abuse.

So I guess the question is what you’re really getting at with seeking validation from an anonymous board?


#12

Thanks for popping in.
sure I guess you can say I am looking for affirmation and answers to questions I have. I already know my numbers are low, yes they fall within range but if 40 year old men are gonna complain with levels in the 400s, I don’t think it should be a red flag for me being 25 and my last test being a 239 tt, My symptoms go along with my numbers, I am sure you read the whole thread it is rather short. No I don’t think anyone will come right out and say go on TRT at my age except as a last resort. If I was looking to just get on the Juice I would of already done it I don’t need a doctor to prescribe anything.


#13

[quote]rookielifter89 wrote:
Thanks for popping in.
sure I guess you can say I am looking for affirmation and answers to questions I have. I already know my numbers are low, yes they fall within range but if 40 year old men are gonna complain with levels in the 400s, I don’t think it should be a red flag for me being 25 and my last test being a 239 tt, My symptoms go along with my numbers, I am sure you read the whole thread it is rather short. No I don’t think anyone will come right out and say go on TRT at my age except as a last resort. If I was looking to just get on the Juice I would of already done it I don’t need a doctor to prescribe anything.[/quote]

Your T-levels being at 239, within normal ranges, is what it is: it’s just your body’s natural point. You’re proposing messing around with your body chemistry on the assumption that you’ll experience some dramatic difference if they were at 500 or whatever. TRT should be considered something that is solving an actual medical problem; you’re proposing, among other things, shutting down your own body’s natural production just to have slightly higher levels. Just seems like a silly risk to be taking to solve a problem that doesn’t even exist.


#14

[quote]MinusTheColon wrote:
Your T-levels being at 239, within normal ranges, is what it is: it’s just your body’s natural point. You’re proposing messing around with your body chemistry on the assumption that you’ll experience some dramatic difference if they were at 500 or whatever. TRT should be considered something that is solving an actual medical problem; you’re proposing, among other things, shutting down your own body’s natural production just to have slightly higher levels. Just seems like a silly risk to be taking to solve a problem that doesn’t even exist.
[/quote]

Thanks for responding.
So my LH number is all good? I am not sure what a the optimal range is, could you tell me…from what I have read it would signal secondary hypogonadism, I could be wrong and if so please correct me. Yes my numbers are all within range except for my Vitd and cholesterol, so if I was to get my blood work done at one of these other labs with a cut off of 350 tt would I be above that or would I still have tested at 239?

(Edit) Let me try to clarify my above post. Most peoples lab ranges I have seen on this site are 350,300 and 250 for the cut off, there have been one or two other guys with the same lab ranges as mine, I am sure there are plenty more but I haven’t come across them as of yet. My whole reason to starting my thread was to have a place I could come and get advice plus only being 25 but knowing I have had lower levels since I was 18 or 19 years old that this could be a thread to help out the younger crowd, TRT isn’t just for the older guys who think they deserve it because they managed to hit a certain age, why would I wait to hit 35 or 40 years old before trying to fix a real issue : libido,EQ,energy,mental clarity ect. To some people Low testosterone may not be a big deal and I can understand that to an extent, there are worse things in life and people with far worse numbers then mine, I wont argue with that. As for treatment I would probably try to do a restart before just going with Testosterone.
I hope that this clarifies things a bit and is not misinterpreted into me sounding like I will go to another lab just to be below normal on my numbers or somehow that I am a drug addict because of my short term use 10 years ago, People will think what they want and so be it. I do hope people will contribute to my thread and help me out by answering my question that I have now and will have sometime in the future and I hope to be able to do the same by documenting my process.


#15

You seem to be secondary.

You could try a SERM restart or HCG monotherapy to verify.

Rule out pituatary adenomas first.


#16

[quote]Tunapancake wrote:
You seem to be secondary.

You could try a SERM restart or HCG monotherapy to verify.

Rule out pituatary adenomas first.[/quote]

Thanks for contributing my thread Tunapancake.
Doctors appointment went pretty decent this evening. The doctor agreed that my levels are low for my age and it is concerning, he said the biggest problem we will have is the insurance company:my age and being within the lab range.
He has put in for a MRI of my brain specifically the pituitary gland, will probably be a fight with the insurance over that but we will see.
He ordered up some more labs for me I will list them below.
CBC w dif
CMP
TT
FT
SHBG
FSH
LH
Ferritin
Iron
Cortisol free serum
B-12
Prolactin
TSH ultra sensitive
ACTH
DHEAS

All in All I don’t think I could have a better doctor at this point he seems to actually give a shit in trying to figure out why before just giving me a script, so at this rate I am assuming within the next couple of months dependent on further testing I will be able to get some type of therapy.

will edit in IGF-1 results with my blood work from the 24th


#17

LH is useless without FSH !
Add E2, TSH, fT3, fT4, rT3

If prolactin is elevated, then a MRI is easier to get as you have an indication of a prolactin secreting adenoma and the MRI confirms. So do the prolactin lab first. BUT you had low prolactin before, so disregard.

Did you read the thyroid basics sticky?
You can’t dig your way out of an iodine deficiency hole with tiny amounts of iodine.

Your body temps were low with +optimal fT3. That implies that rT3 may be blocking fT3.

Thyroid problems can lower T levels. Some young guys simply end up there without known causes.

Your wife is also iodine deficient? Check her oral temps.


#18

[quote]KSman wrote:
LH is useless without FSH !
Add E2, TSH, fT3, fT4, rT3

If prolactin is elevated, then a MRI is easier to get as you have an indication of a prolactin secreting adenoma and the MRI confirms. So do the prolactin lab first. BUT you had low prolactin before, so disregard.

Did you read the thyroid basics sticky?
You can’t dig your way out of an iodine deficiency hole with tiny amounts of iodine.

Your body temps were low with +optimal fT3. That implies that rT3 may be blocking fT3.

Thyroid problems can lower T levels. Some young guys simply end up there without known causes.

Your wife is also iodine deficient? Check her oral temps.

[/quote]

Hey KSman thanks for swinging by.

I have LH and fsh written up for my next lab.

E2 I requested but I guess he didn’t put it down, probably figured it was fine since it was <20.
I have seen you and a few other guys make mention that with low T levels a E2 reading of 20-25 shows Estrogen dominance even tho that would be perfect with a good T levels.

Yeah my prolactin level wasn’t to bad I don’t think(6.3) 2.6 - 13.1, will be getting it tested again to double check, the more we can document the better in my opinion. I am Sure we will be able to get the MRI could be a slight struggle but then again I do have Arnold Chiari so getting a brain scan may be a little easier then if I didn’t have any documented issues.

Yes I read the thyroid sticky…will have to reread it a few more times, but I did note that Iodized salt would not be enough to replensih, I still need to get a multi and will go from there. I did pick up Iodized salt the same day I got the thermometer to at least start somewhere, money is tight ( no job). Will start taking my body temps again starting monday, could of been a mind trick/placebo but I felt more energized after switching salt.

TSH will be checked again. I don’t want to overly press tests on the doc, he is patient and understanding but I just don’t want to press my luck…could just be me being timid lol.
I will try to come up with some money and order up a rT3 from private md labs they have it listed for $62.49 they have 10% promo code on the site so not overly to bad, or I may just request it from the Doc in another month or two.

No wife here, not married. Did pass on some of the thyroid stuff to my family tho,they are consuming Iodized salt and will be getting there thyroids checked before to long.


#19

I came across some YT vids, I do not know how accurate everything is but it should give a better idea how everything works,helped make more connections for me instead of just the written word, Hope these can help others to get a better understanding as well. The vids are all pretty short so don’t expect to gain a Ph.D outta these.

FSH & LH production in the male

male reproductive system-hormonal function & regulation

Functions of Thyroid Hormones

Thyroid Glands:Hormones physiology

Schneid Guide to Hypothalamus and Pituitary Gland (Video 1 of 3)

Schneid Guide to Hypothalamic Control of the Anterior Pituitary (Video 2 of 3)

Schneid Guide to Hypothalamic Pituitary Axes (Video 3 of 3)


#20

Not much of an update but I got my CT scheduled for the 3rd of April, Will be able to get blood work done on the 8th and have my Doctors Appointment on the 15th…I think I am going to push the matter this next appointment based on my results for my third round of bloods of course.

I had a flare up with my nerve (Brachial Plexus) had to go into the Chiropractor on Wednesday…helped relive the pain, could move my neck a lot better the next day… last night I some how screwed my back up,all I did was lift my arms, felt like something gave, the pain wrapped all the way around to my upper stomach chest area. That felt pretty awesome.

I know I don’t have great posture, gonna start working on that and try to get a back brace from the doc. But I was wondering how many other people on here deal with back issues or any body pains and if they believe it to be linked to Low T.

I read that some people ended up having back pain after getting on Testosterone, not sure why that would happen maybe allergic reaction of some kind? or linked to E2?

Well that about sums this up for now Hope everybody is enjoying there weekend, will be kicking back and watching Wrestle Mania Sunday, waiting for Monday to roll around to get back into the Chiropractor and maybe even my docs office to get some muscle relaxers.