T Nation

25 Years Old, in Lower Ranges of TT and FT


#1

Hello,

Brand new user, been reading posts and trying to get up to speed but seems it’s taking a little longer for me. Appreciate your patience.

I’ve read all of the stickies in the TRT section and am making my second way through it to get a better understanding.

25-age

6’7"-height

40-waist

295-weight

Endomorph with less than average facial hair… slightly patchy-describe body and facial hair
a lot around the stomach area… upper chest as well-describe where you carry fat and how changed

Multiple health conditions when I was a child. Tracheotomy, severe lung problems, still have asthma and one lung is blocked off. Also had vocal chord paralysis which miraculously healed at 9 months. -health conditions, symptoms [history]

Viagra 200 mg PRN. Albuterol inhaler. Temporarily on tramadol for an unrelated injury. Flonase, Zyrtec.-Rx and OTC drugs, any hair loss drugs or prostate drugs ever
– real dangers! see this http://propeciahelp.com/overview55

Labwork done 4/20/17 as recommended by GP. Only tested FT and TT
FT- 8.42 (5.05-19.8)
TT - 312 (240-950)

Other biometric results… not sure if relevant but thought I would include:
Your Value Standard Range
CHOLESTEROL 165 mg/dL <200 mg/dL
TRIGLYCERIDE 70 mg/dL <150 mg/dL
HDL 46 mg/dL 40 - 59 mg/dL
LDL CALCULATED 105 mg/dL <100 mg/dL
NON-HDL CHOLESTEROL 119 mg/dL <130 mg/dL
GLUCOSE-FASTING 95 mg/dL 74 - 99 mg/dL

This is all I have as of now… more scheduled for 5/19/17 and will update when I have it.
-lab results with ranges

Protein bar in the AM.
Chicken and veggies for lunch (wife and I have been meal prepping this for 6 months or better)
Dinner- varies… salmon or tuna with quinoa or cous cous. Steak sometimes. pizza limited to once a week.-describe diet [some create substantial damage with starvation diets]

play hockey for 2 hours, 3 days per week. Been lifting 3-4 days per week. Stand splits… (mon, chest. tues, back. thurs, legs. sat shoulders, etc) I am sure to exercise for 5-6 days per week whether it is lift of hockey or both.-describe training [some ruin there hormones by over training]

Never ache that I can specifically think of. -testes ache, ever, with a fever?

Don’t really get morning woods… maybe a couple times per month. -how have morning wood and nocturnal erections changed

So this is my story, it will maybe help explain the above information or at least give a better understanding of my personal situation which is what brings me here.

I have had testosterone issues that I know of for at least 4-5 years. I have ED ever since I can remember. I never jacked off or had a sexual partner until I was 21… was more conservative in belief structure. Also have never really had much libido. I had my test levels tested 3 or 4 years ago and my GP wanted to get me on test injections but I was scared at the time. Instead, I got a prescription for Viagra to help with the ED. I have been purchasing this online for 4 years or so as I haven’t really had a GP I’ve been using until recently and it’s much cheaper online than through a pharmacy (even generic. Also during this time (3-4 years ago) I did a couple prohormone cycles of test (oral with a PCT) and had very good results.

My problem now is that I am realizing that my libido is even less… used to be intimate every day and now it’s 1-2 times per week. Depression, anxiety, mood swings, and most noticeably, weight gain. I’ve gained 40-50 pounds in the past 1-2 years. Note that I’ve been eating pretty healthily for 6+ months and I’ve been exercising 5-6 days to week pretty steadily with VERY minimal results. (I’ve lost 5 pounds in about 4 months of mostly consistent diet and exercise). Note that I do splurge from time to time so my diet hasn’t been perfect, but feel like for the most part I should at the very least be seeing results.

Fast forward to today. Appointment with an Andrologist. Came to her with the TT and FT results. She informed me that I’m not necessarily low, because I’m in the normal ranges. I stated all of my symptoms and she said exercise and diet are most important as well as 8-9 hours of sleep (which I get consistently). I informed her that my diet is pretty consistent (she said the best is to go as close to plant food as possible) as well as exercise and sleep. She kept pounding away at the diet. I agreed that diet could be better, but feel that’s not the only issue. She said that testosterone causes infertility and I stated that I was doing my own research and HCG can help with this. She wrote me scripts for hCG 1000mg per week AND Arimidex but stated that she wants a full panel of blood results and semen analysis. She said that depending on the results she will call me and we can move forward with one of the scripts or the other. The purpose of writing both scripts was so that we could move forward with either option after the results come back. I also mentioned that I thought hCG should be used in conjunction with Test injections and she looked at me like I was crazy. Overall, I felt like she was very rushed.

Would only hCG or Arimidex fix my issue without Test injections? From my understanding of reading posts was that the hCG was to be used in conjunction with TRT so as to help prevent infertility and other hormone suppression. hCg helps my body create testosterone itself, correct? I am still very dumb in this area and would really appreciate a simplified explanation of this as I’m still at the beginning of the learning curve.

I know that when the rest of my blood results are available this could give a better overall picture of my situation and will post those when available.

My questions are this:

Is it true that hCG should NOT be used in conjunction with test injections?

What purpose would a semen analysis have and how should I prepare myself for the results?

Should I look into getting a second opinion about TRT for me?

Thanks in advance for the help, it is truly appreciated.


#2

Anyone?

@KSman your insight would be much appreciated. Sorry for my lack of ability to pick this up quickly.


#3

Without additional labs I (or anyone here) can not tell if you have low T as primary or secondary. LH and FSH would help a great deal. If you are secondary (low LH / FSH) HcG would provide benefit as it is an LH analogue. Arimidex prevents the conversion of test into e. However it does not do so in the testicles so it would be useful if you were on T but not HcG (anyone please correct me if I am wrong).

Yes, as it is an analog of LH it bypasses the the normal feed back loop and tells the testicles to produce hormones. However, if you have primary hypogonadism it will not help as primary means the failure is with the testicles.


#4

Forgot to mention, the stickies have the recommended labs needed for the smart people here like KSman to read. One of those sets of labs that is really a requirement is the thyroid panel.


#5

I appreciate the help @grungephreak.

So is what my Urologist prescribing sound right? It’s hCG 1000mg per week self-injecting SQ or IM but doesn’t sound like there is any kind of Clomid or Nolva SERM to go with. She wrote a RX for 3 months supply of hCG OR Arimidex depending on how the blood tests go(tomorrow going for the labs).

What questions should I be asking about the treatment plan for the hCG and Arimidex? Still confused about what the recommended plan should be after looking through the stickies. Is it okay to take the hCG without being on TRT?

Thank you for the help!!!


#6

hCG is used to kickstart the pituitary gland to make your body start producing hormones (again). Is she thinking maybe yours shut down?

Arimidex is an AI and reduces your E2, which can also raise your testosterone level some. Did you get your E2/estradiol level tested? Hard to believe she’d prescribe this without knowing where you are at. Low E2 is bad or worse than high E2.


#7

If you are secondary it will certainly help (250IU EOD injected SQ). If you are primary it will not help. Also HcG only is an expensive way to do TRT.

That is crazy, you need one of those for a restart (assuming you are secondary but we do not have LH/FSH to go from).

If that is the plan I would be asking if a SERM (Nolva or Clomid) will be added.

The plan makes no sense as it lacks sufficient data to make a determination (primary or secondary) and even then its an half restart.[quote=“rb1234, post:5, topic:229747”]
Is it okay to take the hCG without being on TRT?
[/quote]

HcG can be taken without testosterone if you are secondary. It is just typically cost prohibitive.


#8

HcG bypasses the feedback loop by presenting as an LH analogue. It would be suppressive by nature and not stimulate the pituitary to create LH and FSH.


#9

Gotcha. It bypasses the pituitary and works on the testes directly?


#10

Updated Labs just came through:

Test … My result …Range
LUTEINIZING HORMONE 3.1 mIU/mL… 1.7 - 8.6 mIU/mL
FSH …3.7 mIU/mL… 1.5 - 12.4 mIU/mL
ESTRADIOL …<25 pg/mL… 8 - 43 pg/mL
PROLACTIN …10.0 ng/mL… 4.0 - 15.2 ng/mL
PSA …0.4 ng/mL …<4.0 ng/mL

Test results still pending for recent bloodwork, but just got it done 3 weeks ago or so listed in OP.

Any thoughts due to this updated bloodwork?

Thanks,
Richard


#11

Anyone have any help or suggestion? Doctor wants to start me on hCG but said my liver function looks really low and asked if I’ve ever had hepatitis which I haven’t. Not sure what to do here.

Thanks


#12

Exactly


#13

Given your FSH level one can assume you are secondary (also assuming test was conducted in the AM after proper nights sleep). In that case HcG will provide benefit (250IU EOD injected SC). Still the only concern I have is will you stay on HcG indefinitely? Without a SERM an HPTA restart is not possible. However, the dose suggested in this post (replaces natural LH levels) will increase TT and should increase FT. My apologies for the delay in response, busy time at work.


#14

Inject “28.6” on insulin syringe with 1000iu/ml hCG every other day EOD for 1000iu/week.

The wrong E2 test was ordered, needs to be able to resolve the lower E2 levels found in males. In any case, E2 was not high and anastrozole not indicated now, but that can easily change with any form of TRT.

Prolactin is not the cause. Thyroid could be:
What is your history of using iodized salt?
Do you feel cold easily?
Are your outer eyebrows sparse?
SEE LAST PARAGRAPH IN THIS POST AND PROVIDE AM AND PM BODY TEMPERATURES.

Please read the stickies found here: About the T Replacement Category

  • advice for new guys - need more info about you
  • things that damage your hormones
  • protocol for injections
  • finding a TRT doc

Evaluate your overall thyroid function by checking oral body temperatures as per the thyroid basics sticky. Thyroid hormone fT3 is what gets the job done and it regulates mitochondrial activity, the source of ATP which is the universal currency of cellular energy. This is part of the body’s temperature control loop. This can get messed up if you are iodine deficient. In many countries, you need to be using iodized salt. Other countries add iodine to dairy or bread.


#15

So I asked the doc about this and she said we will watch how the hCG interacts with my body. I told her my concern about elevated E2 levels and she said that is definitely something we will watch. Still unsure how long she is planning this treatment…

So I got the prescription filled for hCG and to my surprise the Andrologist prescribed that I do 1,000 iU 3 days a week MWF for a total of 3,000 iU per week. This seems very high to me and I don’t plan on doing this. I started last night with an injection of 300 iU. Are you recommending that I do 286 iU? The pharmacy gave me 1,000 iU syringe so it’s hard for me to measure out much more finite than 50 iU intervals.

I’ve been speaking with my wife about the iodized salt as she’s more of the chef than I am, and she said she’s been using sea salt, and has been using limited Iodized salt. We’ve been married since September 16 so my diet has been this way for a little while. I’ll get an oral thermometer and start taking AM and PM temps. Is 2 readings per day good, or should I get more than that?

I don’t feel cold easily that I am aware of, but I’ve been paying more attention to this. Outer eyebrows not very sparse at all.

Is there a way to tell my Andrologist what specific E2 test I am looking for that would show these lower values?

Thanks all for the help, I greatly appreciate it. Still feel very lost with everything.


#16

Sea salt is messing up both of you, check her temps and eyebrows too, but plucked eyebrows can be unreadable.

300 will do, 286 was attempt at spreading 1000 across 3.5 injections per week.

hCG and A SERM [clomid, nolvadex] should never been combined, it is one or the other.

Inject with “50iu” #29 1/2" 0.5ml or #31 5/16" 0.5ml insulin syringes, you need to get those. 1000iu not making sense to me.

Restart is an other issue and there is an HPTA restart sticky that you can read.

Your doc will be familiar with the different lab order numbers for the lab he is using. Might be ultra sensitive. But such labeling is also not universal to each company. Maybe your doc is a klutz about this.


#17

Hello all,

Just a follow-up post. I got the rest of my bloodwork back from recent tests, don’t have it on hand, but testosterone dropped more since last bloodwork. First set of bloodwork was 4/20, and now most recent is 5/19.

4/20 showed [quote=“rb1234, post:1, topic:229747”]
FT- 8.42 (5.05-19.8)
TT - 312 (240-950)
[/quote]

Testosterone from 5/19 cam back with same ranges:
FT - 7.49
TT- 289

My liver function came back as alarming to my Urologist, but again, i don’t have the test results in front of me. I will try to get that tomorrow.

However, my main concern is that I’ve been doing the hCG injections since 5/23 EOD but don’t feel any different. I did two injections of 300 and then have bumped it up to 500iU, but still no results that I can tell… Still have low libido (maybe worse than before). ED, no motivation or drive, etc etc.

Don’t want to bump up the dosage, but was wondering how long i could expect before I feel any different.

I bought an oral thermometer, but it seems to be giving a very wide array of results and doesn’t seem accurate. I checked my temp 3 times in 10 minutes and the results varied by almost 5 degrees. Will have to buy another one and come back with results.

Thanks for your help!


#18

Also just purchased 50mg Iodine, a thyroid support supplement(which includes selenium), and Vit D3. Should have those by Friday.


#19

Lab results now that I have them in front of me:

AST: 28. Range: <41UL
ALT: 52. Range: <42UL


#20

Oral body temperature 3 minutes after waking up: 96.6 degrees.

Any help or suggestions with the information provided? Planning on taking 50mg of iodine for 3 straight days in conjunction with a Thyroid Support Supplement which has selenium and also adding Vit D3. Have been consistently doing 500iU EOD. As of yesterday I noticed my testicles are aching a little bit and are noticeably larger, per the wife.

Thanks for the help, I would really appreciate any comments before i start the thyroid support outlined above in conjunction with my hCG.