25 and High Cholesterol

Diet and Nutrition
21

I’m not going to argue any more. As MODOK has said, the sources are out there for anyone to review.

Good Calories, Bad Calories
The Great Cholesterol Con
Cereal Killers
Ignore the Awkward
The Cure for Heart Disease and the Misguided War on Cholesterol
Statin Side Effects

Read those if you want to get to the root cause of all of this along with a better understanding. Until then, I really can’t say any further. It’s hard to swallow our ego and admit that what we once believed was complete BS.

Took me a while to accept it as well.

22

The books listed by jehovasfitness are excellent starting points. Uffe Ravnskov (M.D., Ph.D.) has written extensively on this topic. Look up some of his books as well. (Ignore the Awkward was written by him as referenced by jehovasfitness). He specifically challenges the findings of many of the studies used to “prove” that statins are effective showing that those doctors used incorrect statistical parameters on their studies.

In one case if you calculated side effects the same way that the “benefits” were calculated you get a something like 34% reduction in heart disease (using relative not absolute risk) and something like 1500% increase in cancer risk (if relative risk was used). This doesn’t show up because relative risk is used for heart attack but side effects are calculated using absolute risk which is, to say the least, intellectually irresponsible. They both should be calculated using the same metric. My advice is this. There is a ton of information out there on this topic.

You should inform yourself and make your own conclusions. I’ve already made mine as have many others. Whichever side you fall on make sure you do not make the decision without good information. That means do not simply read conclusions to studies. Read the Materials and Methods and Results sections. As a research scientist when I read the conclusions that others make and it is simply astounding some of the conclusions that are made without the data to back them up.

One of the first things I learned from my mentor is to never overstate the data you have. This happens too often and is happening increasingly frequently as funding is becoming tight in the field and authors need funding to keep their labs open. Again, keep an open mind and read as much as you can on the subject.

23

[quote]Swolle wrote:
Doubledouche… 1) show me a study that shows low dose statins cause myalgias? 2) Please dont tell me that your putting all statins in a class together… simvastatin, vytorin must be used at high doses just to get a decent reduction in cholesterol hence all the issues… And unless you cant read he said it was due to hereditary.

Are you seriously going to assume at 25 that his total cholesterol is just due to his lifestyle… Unless he is morbidly obese he wouldn’t be throwing a 275 at 25 without some serious family history. I am giving him the benefit that he isnt morbidly obese… And ive even seen some morbidly obese mid 20s throwing better numbers…

Second I only stated that his trigs werent too concerning because they are easily affected by diet … The more concerning part is his cholesterol. The reason physicans get all the (oh just like a dr tell him to go on meds) is because 99 out of 100 patients cannot or will not be able to affect their cholesterol enough with simply diet and exercise. Mostly because with a family history they cannot or will not eat clean enough or become cardio junkies.

You need to do more research on statins not just the article you read in the newspapers or magazines… try reading a few studies. Let me ask the OP what did the Dr suggest you do about your numbers? All will try diet and exercise first. Then in a year or two he will be on a statin… WHY?

Crestor is proven to reduce the risk of having an event even in patients who dont present with a higher than normal cholesterol level but with at least one risk factor… IE smoker, family history, low HDL, hypertension. I guess you are smarter though. Tell me what is not smart? When you have a decent cholestrol it is much easier to say oh just diet and exercise it will all go away. You are naive.[/quote]

No, I’ve been in the situation before. I’ve taken the drugs. I’ve personally experienced their effects (zetia, statins, prescription niacin, est.). I’ve also gone through the hard work and reward of tackling the problem naturally. I also had much higher cholesterol numbers at a much lower age than the op. I have educated myself with everything I can get my hands on and lived it.

I had the doctors shoving medication down my throat at 22.

You are the one that doesn’t know what you are talking about. My cholesterol numbers are now better than when I was on all the meds and eating like my doctor told me to. And for the record I have a severe family history of high cholesterol and have always had low triglycerides. I got my LDL numbers way down with really hard work (over 100 points).

I know exactly what I’m talking about.

24

Great points.

I think it’s pretty clear by now that the medical community is way off base on the cholesterol issue. The readings suggested by JF are excellent resources to educate yourself on the matter.

Big pharma - solving every problem by ramming expensive (and often times woefully ineffective) drugs down our throats. ; )

25

WoW a pharm D claiming to know more about disease state and treatment than the leading cardiologists in the country… You must be one of the pharm D’s who thinks they should be referred to as Dr oh except you aren’t really responsible for diagnosing or treating anyone… And I’m sure you have a considerable amount of diagnostic and follow up experience with patients… Lets try this you keep counting pills and talking about the molecules and let the real Drs diagnose and treat… Oh wait last time I checked Crestor has an indication given by the FDA just last year as a primary prevention based on Jupiter. And let me remind you that there were many of both your colleagues and physicians involved in the approval process. One more idea maybe you should do your own studies and get them published before you tell everyone that your opinions are fact… Everything I have said is based on study data for indication approvals…

26

Not sure if it’s been mentioned, but studies on statins are seeming to show they benefit not because of cholesterol lowering (because in trials a higher dose and bigger drop in cholesterol does not improve survival over lower dose), but rather because they are anti-inflammatory.

Hmmm, what else is anti-inflammatory?

fish oil, Curcumin, CLA, low sugar/carb diet, not smoking, low stress, food (walnuts, blueberries, EVOO).

side effects of the above? improved mood, weight loss, less pain in the joints, etc, etc :wink:

27

This thread is awesome, keep the battle going. It is very intriguing from an intellectual standpoint (seriously).

28

alot of new info has come out in the last couple of years. Namely how this whole cholesteral thing is one huge myth. google “cholesteral myth” sometime. the vast majority of people that have heart attacks have normal cholesteral. the medical community realized this, so they basically lowered what the “normal” range should be, so that just about everyone will fall in that range. so they can prescribe there killer statin drugs that have more side effects than anything. fact is, our bodies need cholesteral for hormone production and we need lots of it. don’t let the media brainwash you. if you have high cholesteral its a good thing. not bad.

29

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
Not sure if it’s been mentioned, but studies on statins are seeming to show they benefit not because of cholesterol lowering (because in trials a higher dose and bigger drop in cholesterol does not improve survival over lower dose), but rather because they are anti-inflammatory.

Hmmm, what else is anti-inflammatory?

fish oil, Curcumin, CLA, low sugar/carb diet, not smoking, low stress, food (walnuts, blueberries, EVOO).

side effects of the above? improved mood, weight loss, less pain in the joints, etc, etc ;)[/quote]

Yes, it is due to suppressing a substance called NF-kB. Its a global inflammatory cytokine. The bad thing is, its also very important in the immune response. This explains the increased incidences of cancer that have been seen.
[/quote]
If that MOA is responsible for the increased incidences of cancer, then a number of readily available pharmaceuticals will have the same side effects.
Some colleagues of mine use salicylate to inhibit activation of NFkB. I know they have done some vascular biology work before, so I will ask their thoughts on NFkB inhibition in atherosclerosis. They may have access to some unpublished data.

30

OP advice… Let your real MD make recommendations… Clearly modok knows more than they do but he will never be trusted to prescribe meds so let the MD decide. Believe me they have more pharmacology knowledge than the arrogant Modok believes. They don’t come up with treatment guidelines without pharmacology knowledge. That’s almost laughable. That’s like saying pharm Ds can’t count.

31

[quote]MODOK wrote:
Remember, it was this same AHA who for 30 years recommended EVERYONE above the age of 2 substitute margerine, corn oil, and fucking Crisco for saturated fats in their diet. Only to find out it is FAR worse than saturated fats for heart disease and diabetes. You really going to cast your lot with them again, in the face of science to the contrary? I suggest you read just one of the books jehovahfitness recommended. It will open your eyes.
[/quote]

The Medical BUSINESS (trade name: “the health care system”) is so resilient to what the science proves because most of the people in it are not only making $ from it, they are also “true believers.” They are immune to reason.

32

[quote]Swolle wrote:
OP advice… Let your real MD make recommendations… Clearly modok knows more than they do but he will never be trusted to prescribe meds so let the MD decide. Believe me they have more pharmacology knowledge than the arrogant Modok believes. They don’t come up with treatment guidelines without pharmacology knowledge. That’s almost laughable. That’s like saying pharm Ds can’t count. [/quote]

And if you do, be sure to ask your doc if he has ever received honoria from said statin makers. Some docs get several thousands of dollars per year, in one instance a doc said close to 100k/yr, as he had cashed some of those checks.

33

Interesting thread here. Always good to see Modok get down into the science, ESPECIALLY wrt pharmacology. Keep it up, dude :slight_smile:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

No, I’ve been in the situation before. I’ve taken the drugs. I’ve personally experienced their effects (zetia, statins, prescription niacin, est.). I’ve also gone through the hard work and reward of tackling the problem naturally. I also had much higher cholesterol numbers at a much lower age than the op. I have educated myself with everything I can get my hands on and lived it.

I had the doctors shoving medication down my throat at 22.

You are the one that doesn’t know what you are talking about. My cholesterol numbers are now better than when I was on all the meds and eating like my doctor told me to. And for the record I have a severe family history of high cholesterol and have always had low triglycerides. I got my LDL numbers way down with really hard work (over 100 points).

I know exactly what I’m talking about.[/quote]

Would you mind sharing with us what you did to achieve these results? I’ve got actual FHC (triglycerides and HDL are low, LDL is very high) and have recently stopped taking the Crestor I was prescribed as it made me feel like dogshit. It did cut my total cholesterol in half (from the mid 400’s to the mid 200’s) in about 6 weeks, but if I can achieve that sort of reduction through means that aren’t going to demyelinate my nervous system and increase cancer risk, that would be highly preferable.

34

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
Interesting thread here. Always good to see Modok get down into the science, ESPECIALLY wrt pharmacology. Keep it up, dude :slight_smile:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

No, I’ve been in the situation before. I’ve taken the drugs. I’ve personally experienced their effects (zetia, statins, prescription niacin, est.). I’ve also gone through the hard work and reward of tackling the problem naturally. I also had much higher cholesterol numbers at a much lower age than the op. I have educated myself with everything I can get my hands on and lived it.

I had the doctors shoving medication down my throat at 22.

You are the one that doesn’t know what you are talking about. My cholesterol numbers are now better than when I was on all the meds and eating like my doctor told me to. And for the record I have a severe family history of high cholesterol and have always had low triglycerides. I got my LDL numbers way down with really hard work (over 100 points).

I know exactly what I’m talking about.[/quote]

Would you mind sharing with us what you did to achieve these results? I’ve got actual FHC (triglycerides and HDL are low, LDL is very high) and have recently stopped taking the Crestor I was prescribed as it made me feel like dogshit. It did cut my total cholesterol in half (from the mid 400’s to the mid 200’s) in about 6 weeks, but if I can achieve that sort of reduction through means that aren’t going to demyelinate my nervous system and increase cancer risk, that would be highly preferable.[/quote]

Most important is LDL particle size; if HDL is high and Trigs are low, LDL particles will be big and fluffy. The dangerous situation is if the LDL particles are small and dense. Your Trigs are low = good, but you have to get that HDL up. Keep trigs down by severely restricting grains and sugar; raise HDL with organic animal fat (incl. naturally saturated fat).

[note: I have neither degree nor license, just telling the truth about what science has proven]

35

Wow a lot of discussion here! I’m trying to change my diet dramatically at this point in my life. Thanks for the advice fellas, I’ll sift through it all.

36

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
Interesting thread here. Always good to see Modok get down into the science, ESPECIALLY wrt pharmacology. Keep it up, dude :slight_smile:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

No, I’ve been in the situation before. I’ve taken the drugs. I’ve personally experienced their effects (zetia, statins, prescription niacin, est.). I’ve also gone through the hard work and reward of tackling the problem naturally. I also had much higher cholesterol numbers at a much lower age than the op. I have educated myself with everything I can get my hands on and lived it.

I had the doctors shoving medication down my throat at 22.

You are the one that doesn’t know what you are talking about. My cholesterol numbers are now better than when I was on all the meds and eating like my doctor told me to. And for the record I have a severe family history of high cholesterol and have always had low triglycerides. I got my LDL numbers way down with really hard work (over 100 points).

I know exactly what I’m talking about.[/quote]

Would you mind sharing with us what you did to achieve these results? I’ve got actual FHC (triglycerides and HDL are low, LDL is very high) and have recently stopped taking the Crestor I was prescribed as it made me feel like dogshit. It did cut my total cholesterol in half (from the mid 400’s to the mid 200’s) in about 6 weeks, but if I can achieve that sort of reduction through means that aren’t going to demyelinate my nervous system and increase cancer risk, that would be highly preferable.[/quote]

Well, first, you’ve gotten a bigger drop in total than I did from the drugs. But, my real problem was that my HDL went down along with my LDL and my ratio stayed almost exactly the same.

For my diet, it’s really just generally eating natural and healthy. I don’t eat any refined carbs. I eat a ton of veggies and a large amount of fruit (much of which I either grow or get at the farmers market). I also eat a ton of beans. I eat grass fed beef and collect my own eggs. I also consume a large amount of good oils raw (grapeseed oil, olive oil, walnut oil, avocado oil, almond oil, est.) And I strictly limit my alcohol consumption.

I also take fish oil, resveratrol, and curcumin.

I’d should mention I dropped a decent amount of weight and leaned out including doing more conditioning/cardio work.

That got my total down from 361 to 220-240 and my HDL from the mid 30â??s (20â??s when on a statin) up the the mid 40â??s.

I have actually developed a strong distaste for the stuff I know I shouldn’t eat. Coke, fast food burgers, est. make me nauseous. It’s kind of funny. I went to taco bell the really lay down a cheat meal a couple of months ago, and could only get through about half a burrito.

37

[quote]Jungleman wrote:
So I had my blood checked about a month ago, and to my dismay found out my cholesterol count was 275, and trig. were 250. The problem is, a lot of it is due to heredity. What sort of things could I do to lower this without meds?[/quote]

I also had high cholesterol and trigs and I lowered them by just cleaning up my diet and losing about 20 lbs. Whole wheat bread, lean meats, brown rice and only a cheat meal or two per week. I also lifted about 4 times a week and, as a server, I spent 30 or so hours walking as part of my job. I didn’t do much cardio outside of that. When I had my blood retested, the doctor was actually surprised at how quickly I got them down and asked me what I did. This is exactly what I told her.

38

whoa, lot of arguments here. back on point, i know im new to this forum but i have multiple nutrition certifications and have had a lot of success lowering my own mothers LDL and trig levels to what her DR called “phenomenal”.

anywho i never recommend any type of meds mainly because im not a DR but also because high cholesterol (fire fighter) is a reaction to inflammation (fire). if you use a cholesterol drug you just kill the fire fighter and are left with a blazing fire.

so what i did with my mom was put her on a high fat and protein diet, including saturated fats, removed food sensitivities and gluten, and used medical protein powders aimed at reducing inflammation. low and behold her levels are now as previously stated “phenomenal”.

i also try not to trust DRs completely when it comes to nutrition as most dont have much training in the field. i have a 60 year old client who is a diabetic and therefore refuses to take any nutrition advice from anyone other than her DR, using a diet her DR gave her her LDL went up 25 points in 3 months, so he now wants to put her on cholesterol meds, she still refuses to listen to me and i want to punch her DR in the face because this is the nicest lady in the world and hes f’ing her over.

39

I’ve read that labeling cholesterol as bad and good is sort of rediculous. I believe they said that cholesterol going towards the liver is the LDL and going away from the liver is the HDL. Anyone have any knowledge on this?

RJS89 - I like your second paragraph. That is what I have come to understand about cholesterol. High cholesterol is more of a response to some sort of inflammation, which is what needs to be addressed. Once the inflammation is addressed, the cholesterol numbers will go down.

I’m 31 and had blood work done a couple of months ago. I am a pretty healthy person and had gotten back into lifting 8 months prior. My cholesterol was 318, HDL 92, LDL 209 and Tri 83. My doctor didn’t even ask me anything about what my diet was like or recommend any form of diet to lower my numbers, he just wanted me to take Lipitor and CoQ10. At least he got the CoQ10 right.

40

Yeah, I know several people that are on statins and I ask if they take CoQ10 or if their doc recommended it, and they had no clue about it.

My Dad being one.

Yes, labeling cholesterol as simple as good and bad is a bit misguided. LDL will actually clear toxins. The problem arises when it is oxidized which chemically alters it, then the body starts to attack it which will lead to plaque formation.