T Nation

24 Year Old T and E

No one ever seemed to read my old thread as it was named inappropriately for what I wanted out of it. http://tnation.tmuscle.com/free_online_forum/sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding_senior/doctor_prescribed_androgel

So this will be my new thread to get advice and hopefully people will chime in more.

Over a month ago:
T: 442
Free T: 88, 2%
Serum E: 122pg/mL (menstrual cycle levels)

So I have been on Arimidex at .25mg EOD for 3 weeks. I got some blood tests done on Friday (haven’t heard back yet) but decided to up my dosage anyway in the meantime. Once I hear back I can hone it in even better. I went from taking .25mg EOD to .3125mg EOD (8 drops to 10).

Since then I have definitely been feeling better. My chest is even breaking out in acne haha. Finally feeling like I can start hitting PRs again too.

A couple of things I was hoping I could get some help on:

  • Supposedly water retention is supposed to go down once E2 levels become more manageable but I still feel as if I am holding A LOT of water. Granted, my E2 levels still aren’t honed in but it’s just something I noticed
  • Somewhat in line with the last comment but I am hoping someone can help. I can’t help but imagine the issue of hyperhydrosis has something to do with hormone levels. I suffer from this REALLY badly. I have gotten the tests below to see if they might be of any help. I should get the results Friday/Monday. Anyone have any experience with this?

I got the following done:
Test
Estradiol ultrasensitive
Cortisol
SHBG
DHEA-s

Ok. Results came back. This was after 3 weeks of 8drops EOD of Anastrazol.

Estradiol, Ultrasensitive: 42pg/mL (< or = 29pg/mL)
DHEA: 250- I’m not sure which we tested. Ranges are 61-1636 ng/dL OR the other one doesn’t list ranges (the one I think we did) Either way, probably too low.
Cortisol: 15.1 (again, don’t know reference range)
SHBG: 18 (not really sure on range- http://www.nicholsinstitute.com/TestDetail.aspx?TestID=1967)

They also checked my bilirubin: 1.5 (.2-1.2) and urea nitrogen: 27 (7-25). No idea how they tested urea nitrogen- I didn’t pee in any cups that I know of…

I will go pick up my lab results in a week but how does this appear? I guess I need to up my Adex levels to get the E2 down more.

Any ideas?

KSMan’s Adex formula: (current dosage) x (current E2)/(desired E2) = (new dosage)
so actually 8drops EOD (.25mg) x 42/22 = 15.3 drops (.4772mg) EOD

How the heck do I dose that? Preferably every day. Probably 8ED?

EOD works well, WTFI 8ED?

Are you sure about E2=42?

You are not on TRT and are going to take ~0.5mg ED? That is unusual.

8ED would be 8 drops every day. I was going to start every day dosing tomorrow morning. Is that a bad idea?

That’s the E2 she told me. I ran the exact code I wanted from the Quest Labs book in the docs office (showed it to her). That’s the result although I don’t have paper in hand.

What do you think that means that it is so high?

I went with .5mg (16 drops) this morning.

An unusually high amount for your situation. But if it works, that is what you need.

Maybe his liquidex is underdosed? That’s the problem with research chemicals: you’ll never know.

[quote]chemman wrote:
Maybe his liquidex is underdosed? That’s the problem with research chemicals: you’ll never know. [/quote]

It claims 1mg/mL on the bottle.

That would be really damn annoying because it would be hard to hone in on a proper dosage! Not very innovative if that’s the case.

That thought also crossed my mind, but you need to go with what you’ve got.

I switched over to .25mg every day (I took into account half-life before every day dosage).

I don’t know if I am feeling better. I was actually feeling pretty good when I was taking 10drops EOD right before I got my results back. I don’t notice anything different now- maybe even worse.

Something I forgot to mention and I imagine is retarded to forget to mention is that morning of labs I DID NOT take my adex. Is it possible that skipping that dose would have thrown off my numbers? I was worried the opposite would be true.

I like the every day dosing, so I may just goof with it a little bit after another week or so (if I don’t get run down). Maybe cut back to 6drops (1.875mg) everyday and see how I feel.

You should certainly not take my word as gospel until someone more knowledgeable weighs in, but the half-life of Adex is about 3 days. Your E2 should have been stabilized when you got your test done (that’s why the dosing is recommended EOD or E3D).

What is feeling worse? Just general mood, or workouts, or what?

I don’t know if it’s in my head but my joints are feeling a little more painful than normal. I guess I was just expecting something more dramatc dropping my E2 from 42 down. I probably need to give more time to evaluate. I’m PRing like crazy on my pressing so something is working.

It’s 50hr half life for adex. I took my test about 48hrs after my last dose. Wouldn’t that mean I was essentially at half dose and therefore numbers are skewed?

Yea but you also had remaining in your system 1/4 of the dose before that and 1/8 of the dose before that and 1/16 of the dose before that. etc.

So do the math. You had about 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 1/16 + 1/32 + 1/64 etc. of a dose in your system, roughly speaking. It adds up to about 90% of a full dose.

It’s all about steady state blood levels, and if you were dosing for several weeks straight you should have been close.

[quote]coolnatedawg wrote:
I don’t know if it’s in my head but my joints are feeling a little more painful than normal. I guess I was just expecting something more dramatc dropping my E2 from 42 down. I probably need to give more time to evaluate. I’m PRing like crazy on my pressing so something is working.

It’s 50hr half life for adex. I took my test about 48hrs after my last dose. Wouldn’t that mean I was essentially at half dose and therefore numbers are skewed? [/quote]

Word, I got 3 days from Wikipedia and other steroid forums on the net, but I’ve seen 48 hours referenced as well…so somewhere between 2-3 days…either way, you are testing estrogen levels in your system, not adex levels…you would have reached steady state E2 levels by that point, so not taking your adex right before wouldn’t have bearing on your E2.

I’ve seen ksman recommend getting blood results at halfway between your last and next ingestion (or injection in the case of TRT) to hit it at the “average”, but I wouldn’t think a 2 day half life is a big deal for that. Though I must asterisk anything I’ve just said with the fact that I got a D- in chemistry for engineers and was ecstatic that I didn’t have to retake it! Never used it since haha

Congrats on the PRs…must be a good feeling after not seeing them for so long!

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

[quote]coolnatedawg wrote:
I don’t know if it’s in my head but my joints are feeling a little more painful than normal. I guess I was just expecting something more dramatc dropping my E2 from 42 down. I probably need to give more time to evaluate. I’m PRing like crazy on my pressing so something is working.

It’s 50hr half life for adex. I took my test about 48hrs after my last dose. Wouldn’t that mean I was essentially at half dose and therefore numbers are skewed? [/quote]

Word, I got 3 days from Wikipedia and other steroid forums on the net, but I’ve seen 48 hours referenced as well…so somewhere between 2-3 days…either way, you are testing estrogen levels in your system, not adex levels…you would have reached steady state E2 levels by that point, so not taking your adex right before wouldn’t have bearing on your E2.

I’ve seen ksman recommend getting blood results at halfway between your last and next ingestion (or injection in the case of TRT) to hit it at the “average”, but I wouldn’t think a 2 day half life is a big deal for that. Though I must asterisk anything I’ve just said with the fact that I got a D- in chemistry for engineers and was ecstatic that I didn’t have to retake it! Never used it since haha

Congrats on the PRs…must be a good feeling after not seeing them for so long![/quote]

Hell yea it is!!!

You and chemnman helped out. I wasnt really looking at it as a huge issue, just a possible concern.

I’m feeling pretty run down lately. Trouble getting out of bed, sluggish (despite 8+ hrs sleep), not exactly rock hard. I am still hitting some PRs, so for all I know my CNS could just be needing a break.

Before I got my lab results I was at 10 drops EOD (after labs taken but before results came back) and felt pretty good. Now that I am up to 8 every day I just don’t think it’s right. I cut back to 6 drops this morning and will try that for a few days.

I want to scale back to what felt right but at the same time I am curious about the potency of my adex. I may purchase from another site to take a run at that and eliminate this variable.

Thoughts?

Try that. If better, great. If not, then the old bottle would seem to be as good as the old. Sometimes you will find that there are things that get you down that are not a simple matter of hormone balance.

Might want to get proper e2 testing done which is senitive assay not ultra or rapid. The ultrasensitive had me high and when I ran the other sensitive assay I was actually low. Test can be miss leading if the proper ones are not ordered. Make sure you get the properl ones next time 4021x (13-54).

I have ran hundreds of test on patients and I have seen a huge variation once this was adjusted then treat ment was correct symptoms started to resolve. HRT can be very tricky some times and just needs a good understanding not to base things on tests, but symptoms instead.

[quote]Hardasnails wrote:
Might want to get proper e2 testing done which is senitive assay not ultra or rapid. The ultrasensitive had me high and when I ran the other sensitive assay I was actually low. Test can be miss leading if the proper ones are not ordered. Make sure you get the properl ones next time 4021x (13-54).

I have ran hundreds of test on patients and I have seen a huge variation once this was adjusted then treat ment was correct symptoms started to resolve. HRT can be very tricky some times and just needs a good understanding not to base things on tests, but symptoms instead.[/quote]

I thought the ultrasensitive was the way to go because it made it possible to see <29 or whatever. That way I can see if I am even remotely close to the recommended 22.