Yikes – needed an EDIT, not a quote.
Not paying attention today, fa sho.
[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
Those lab ranges don’t look right. Are you listing some sort of optimal range that you’d like to see? Have a hard time believing a lab sets Total T at 650-850.
Agree that your overall CHOL is a bit on the low side, but HDL and LDL look great, so I wouldn’t sweat it.[/quote]
Aah, good catch.
In my Excel spreadsheet, I have various supposed optimal ranges from LEF, Dugan, etc (attached is a scanned sheet from Your Blood Doesn’t Lie – I’m sure you’ve seen it plastered all over on Crisler’s forum). I copied the above from my spreadsheet and missed out on some of the swaps.
I’ve edited them appropriately using the ranges provided by Labcorp.
How are your symptoms feeling on your current supplementation?
That is truly a bizarre SHBG/E2 relationship. Hopefully someone has a theory on that.
[quote]scj119 wrote:
How are your symptoms feeling on your current supplementation?[/quote]
Fatigue is markedly relieved. Comfortably living on anywhere from 5 - 8 hours per night, depending on my schedule, and am able to get up when I need to without crashing/yawning my brains out in the evening.
Mood has improved; motivation is good.
Bringing it in the gym; I’ve put on about 8 lbs this past month while seeing my face get a little leaner.
Still waiting for the spontaneous erections, whether it is during the day or nocturnal/morning wood. While I can get it up if physically stimulated, it’s not where I want it to be.
^This is really my only complaint as of now. I consider it a functional, but suboptimal, state. I’m only 25, ya know?
[quote]scj119 wrote:
That is truly a bizarre SHBG/E2 relationship. Hopefully someone has a theory on that.[/quote]
First theory that comes to mind is that cortisol is still too low, which is forcing my body to compensate by putting the kibash on my free tesosterone. In the presence of suboptimal cortisol production, the body compensate by decreasing the metabolic effects of thyroid (via RT3) and testosterone (via E2 or SHBG) hormones.
We can see that my rT3 is still fairly high – around where it was before the Nature-throid treatment – which might indicate that the T4 from the dessicated thyroid isn’t converting as well as we’d like, though this is being compensated for by the direct T3 intake. Though FWIW I don’t know what “optimal” rT3 levels are generally considered to be.
This would, I think, be the prevailing view on Crisler’s forum and the theoretical treatment would be to fix cortisol → fix thyroid → fix T. Some might require direct pharmaceutical interventions while others would pick automatically up as the foundation builds… assuming I haven’t been in a degraded state long enough for my body to have zoned in on these levels as the “healthy set point”.
As it stands, thyroid is more or less fixed, albeit artificially. Since T is still inadequate, check cortisol. While I don’t have a direct cortisol measurements (might need to put on the To-Do list), the evidence of preg flowing to prog alongside the relief in my glaring cortisol issues makes me believe this wouldn’t be the case.
This is why I wish I got SHBG levels checked back when I had elevated E2. Would’ve been nice to see if the high E2 enabled lower SHBG (by adequately downregulating T) and that the inverse is now the case (higher SHBG relieving the necessity of elevated E2 – we can see Free T dropping after controlling E2 with arimidex in earlier blood work), or if there was a positive correlation between the two (high e2 AND SHBG), such that my SHBG must have been monstrous way back when.
Of course, this really only addresses the high SHBG and not the observed decrease in TT. FT also used to be twice what it was now (TT approximately 20% higher), and although FT is slightly lower than it used to be and SHBG is HIGHER than it used to be, I’m not sure I believe SHBG is entirely to blame.
My concern would be directly combating SHBG levels and seeing E2 rise to compensate. I’m thinking about investigating boosting testosterone levels and seeing to what degree SHBG/E2 will respond. To do that, I will first need to find out why my body is producing less testosterone in general than it was last December.
tl;dr I’m just talking to myself.
Cliffnotes:
fuck if I know.
must do more reading (testosterone production and SHBG [which I know fuck all about], primarily)
feels batman.png
chlln’s hormones primers are good for understanding the feedback and mechanisms of action of your HPTA and other involved processes, but as far as implementing his advice to correct it, meh…I don’t think a single person on that board can tell you they have implemented his protocol as written and recovered their health…
I think most of these issues can just be corrected with more T (in my limited experience).
[quote]anonym wrote:
Bump
New labs came in, results are as follows:
Misc.
Glucose: 85 [65 - 99]
Total Cholesterol: 149 [100 - 199]
HDL Cholesterol: 57 [>39]
LDL Cholesterol: 82 [0 - 99]
VLDL Cholesterol: 10 [5 - 40]
Triglycerides: 51 [0 - 149]
Hormones
Total Testosterone: 471 [249 - 836]
Free Testosterone: 10.1 [9.3 - 26.5]
DHEA-S: 337.3 [160 - 449]
Estradiol: 16.5 [7.6 - 42.6]
SHBG: 50.5 [14.5 - 48.4]
Pregnenolone: 247 [<151]
Progesterone: 1.4 [0.2 - 1.4]
Vitamin D3: 90.6 [32 - 100]]
Thyroid
TSH: 1.23 [0.45 - 4.5]
FT4: 1.17 [.82 - 1.77]
FT3: 3.8 [2.0 - 4.4]
rT3: 205 [90 - 350]
rt3 ratio: 18.5 [>20]
Supplements/Medication
The above is the result of the following protocol for the past 6 weeks, or so:
1.5gr Nature-throid (1gr in the morning, .5gr in the evening)
100mg pregnenolone
100mg DHEA
Vitamin D3 5000IU + 1mg iodine
Two-per-day multivitamin
Huge improvement in the cholesterol category since the last time I had it looked at. It’s actually looking like my cholesterol might be TOO LOW… but I just started working lots of red meat back into my diet so I’m gonna wait to see where that goes.
The 100mg preg is paying off: I don’t have trouble getting up in the mornings (STILL not a morning person, but not overwhelmingly fatigued) and don’t crash in the evenings, either. I was worried about oral supplementation since the wisdom on Crisler’s board is that it is worthless for just about everyone. Maybe I just got lucky, but we can see that the increased preg has flown nicely to increased progesterone (don’t want prog getting any higher, I think) and, given the relief of some symptoms, has made its way to cortisol.
I can probably get away with 50mg pregnenolone, but I’ll leave as is for the time being since I haven’t noticed anything negative.
Thyroid numbers are looking decent, I think, despite the still-high rT3. I’m going to see if I can’t throw in some more selenium (only at 200mcg/day now) to get that down a little. FT3 is looking nice, though, and I’ve read an article on Crisler’s site that raises the question of whether or not rT3 actually “clogs” the receptors, so I’m not sure how much it might really help things.
Really, my only main concern is the FT, TT and SHBG (the rest are just small tweaks). I was working under chilln’s theory that, given my age, balancing adrenals and thyroid will lead to a boost in my T. Doesn’t appear to be working – both test values are at their lowest measured yet.
Will probably get LH/FSH measured to see what’s going on there. This is an area I haven’t done much thinking on since I had bought into the theory that it would sort itself out as things progressed, so I’ll need to crack a few books open. Any thoughts here would be much appreciated.
Definitely wishing I had SHBG measured last December when my FT was at 22.8… which was decent despite the high estradiol I was sporting at the time (glad E2 is managing itself without the need for an AI now, at least).[/quote]
Intetesting read… I noticed your high cholesterol numbers and 6 weeks later a massive improvement. I am in the same boat with high cholesterol numbers and looking at your protocol I am only missing pregnenolone.
Do you have any idea what brought it down so much or prob too hard to tell hey?
When I read your first post I initially thought high cortisol at night trouble sleeping and not refreshed in the morning. Plus the coffee to keep you going. Taking Dhea looks like it helped with your sleeping issue as I have read numerous articles how dhea helps lower night time cortisol which in turn should improve sleep quality.
[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
chlln’s hormones primers are good for understanding the feedback and mechanisms of action of your HPTA and other involved processes, but as far as implementing his advice to correct it, meh…I don’t think a single person on that board can tell you they have implemented his protocol as written and recovered their health…
I think most of these issues can just be corrected with more T (in my limited experience).[/quote]
This is true.
Sounds like an extremely nice, very neat theory as presented… but, at the end of the day, who has really gone through it all with success?
Which is one of the main drawbacks on Crisler’s board: most problems are met with either a copy/paste of the solution from chilln’s primers or a $1,000 laundry list of tests by Jansz.
[quote]iroczinoz wrote:
Intetesting read… I noticed your high cholesterol numbers and 6 weeks later a massive improvement. I am in the same boat with high cholesterol numbers and looking at your protocol I am only missing pregnenolone.
Do you have any idea what brought it down so much or prob too hard to tell hey?[/quote]
The shitty cholesterol numbers were actually from May and I’m not sure how the high fat/low carb diet I was on at the time impacted the levels.
Since late August or so, I’ve been on an approximate 40/30/30 c/p/f split that I enjoy much more.
I am also sure the metabolic boost from the dessicated thyroid helped. The connection between thyroid health and cholesterol is there with a quick Google.
[quote]iroczinoz wrote:
When I read your first post I initially thought high cortisol at night trouble sleeping and not refreshed in the morning. Plus the coffee to keep you going. Taking Dhea looks like it helped with your sleeping issue as I have read numerous articles how dhea helps lower night time cortisol which in turn should improve sleep quality.[/quote]
Yeah, the DHEA helped quite a bit and the preg has been pretty beneficial, as well.
I toned the DHEA down after the blood test that had me at ~900, but I’m gonna sit at the 100mg dose for the time being since I am pretty damn sure I just took the DHEA the morning of the test, which must have screwed with it.
Looking back, there were a couple obvious conclusions to be drawn from the initial labs… it’s just a pretty overwhelming process when you dive in for the first time, ya know? So many friggen labs, so many fookin’ hormones, so many frakken relationships between it all.
After a while, you get to the point where you realize you still don’t know jack… but at least you are able to move forward without feeling completely overwhelmed by all the subject matter.
You guys should really check out “The Cholesteral Myth” sometime. It will show that you have been worrying about cholesteral for nothing. but hey, continue to worry about it. lol.
[quote]roguevampire wrote:
You guys should really check out “The Cholesteral Myth” sometime. It will show that you have been worrying about cholesteral for nothing. but hey, continue to worry about it. lol.[/quote]
I feel the same way…I like cholesterol, it turns into testosterone lol
I think as long as your HDL is up and your VLDL is down, you are golden regardless of the other numbers…
2 things:
Get cortisol checked. Your body may have a hard time breaking down progesterone into cortisol in which case testing progesterone is not enough to know how you are doing. It’s a better indicator than having no info but why not get it tested directly, you know?
Also, one other theory (caveat: I’m sure there are plenty of things I don’t know about that can cause high SHBG, so this is just one possibility and may not be anywhere near the “most likely” possibility) - but one thing I do happen to know is excess growth hormone can cause high SHBG.
God I hate how the same list of symptoms is present for every hormone problem. I swear to god, reading up on Growth Hormone has me convinced that mine must be high and low at the same time, lol.
[quote]scj119 wrote:
2 things:
Get cortisol checked. Your body may have a hard time breaking down progesterone into cortisol in which case testing progesterone is not enough to know how you are doing. It’s a better indicator than having no info but why not get it tested directly, you know?[/quote]
Agreed. I’d like to think the partial evidence combined with the symptom relief is a decent indicator, but I’ll see if I can’t get another 4x spit kit just to be certain.
I don’t know jack about the GH part.
[quote]anonym wrote:
[quote]scj119 wrote:
2 things:
Get cortisol checked. Your body may have a hard time breaking down progesterone into cortisol in which case testing progesterone is not enough to know how you are doing. It’s a better indicator than having no info but why not get it tested directly, you know?[/quote]
Agreed. I’d like to think the partial evidence combined with the symptom relief is a decent indicator, but I’ll see if I can’t get another 4x spit kit just to be certain.
I don’t know jack about the GH part.
[/quote]
I only know because I researched growth hormone after I tested low… the fact I’d never heard it before means it’s probably rare.