T Nation

24 and Starting HRT.

i just spoke with the doc and he says my test total is in the 240’s. i’ve had it tested twice, by 2 different doctors with the same results. the latest doctor did a whole bunch of tests to make sure it was not “something else causing it”, whatever that could be. i’m wondering what i’m in for, and what side effects to expect on a life long cycle.

my number one concern is being able to have kids in the future. i dont have any erection problems (i had to lie and say i do or both the doctors said they would not help me) and i dont have tiny nuts if that has anything to do with it. since i’m 24 i have never thought about having my sperm count checked or something, is that needed?

also, any advice that maybe you wish you had before you started would be GREATLY appreciated. needless to say i am a little nervous with all the old posts i have been reading. especially the guy that said his nuts are “pea sized” since he started.

thanks for the help.

What are they putting you on and at what dose?

Every person is going to react different, so honestly your nuts may or many not shrink. Have you cycled before?

That’s right about where my levels were before I ever ran a cycle. I feel so much better when I am on, that it’s tempting for me to just self medicate at a dose of 200mg/wk for life.

I personally think it would take a very long time and a high dose to shut donw your sperm production. You may want to get it tested now just to see what your levels are. You could always get a re-test once a year or something to make sure things were working.

I’ve heard too many heavy juicers say they got their wives/gf’s knocked up while on a big long heavy cycle. But, like I always say, alot of this stuff is trial and error, not much real data out there. Good luck!

Monopoly

What other test did they do? Which T did they test for? Here is a link from my TRT doctor’s website: http://www.allthingsmale.com/publications.html
click on TRT: A Recipe for Success and it goes through some of his protocol in terms of what lab test to take. I’m not saying you need to take them all but having just your testosterone checked won’t give a complete picture. If you do go on TRT and still want to have kids then going on HCG should help. And if kids are really that important than getting your sperm checked out might be a good idea.

You will be on TRT and that is forever. Forever is a long time and your testes will shut down. You will need to inject HCG to keep them working and keeping your scrotum from staying up tight to your body all the time. The only research supported dosing seems to be 250iu EOD (every other day) injected under the skin (SQ) with insulin needles. As long as you are injecting to keep your testes healthy, doing transdermal testosterone to avoid injecting is sort of insane. Typical starting doses of T are 100mg test cyp or test eth every week, which needs to be injected in to muscle (IM).

Most guys on TRT/HRT are on the “over 35 lifter” forum. Much to read there and guys who have gone through this and guys who are still struggling to get things working right.

Other issues: estrogen comes to the party and spoils everything, got crazy horny for a while so why am I now having trouble getting it up (see estrogen), acne, hair loss, sleep changes, growing new body hair, estrogen left and the party is back on…

[quote]Monopoly19 wrote:
What are they putting you on and at what dose?

Have you cycled before?

Good luck!

Monopoly[/quote]

as far as what and the dose, i dont know yet. i’m out of town on buisness right now, but the doctor said(via voicemail) he would have the “paper” i need to get started this week or next.

i have never cycled before.

thanks :slight_smile:

240 is not abnormal. I imagine he may just put you on HCG. My levels where 400 when I started HRT, and my levels went to 1100 just using the HCG alone. My doctor at the time had been on HCG for two years straight.

[quote]designinme wrote:
240 is not abnormal. I imagine he may just put you on HCG. My levels where 400 when I started HRT, and my levels went to 1100 just using the HCG alone. My doctor at the time had been on HCG for two years straight.

[/quote]

how can below normal not be abnormal?? it would seem pretty abnormal to me, and to all the doctors i’ve seen, but wtf do they know right?

[quote]designinme wrote:
240 is not abnormal. I imagine he may just put you on HCG. My levels where 400 when I started HRT, and my levels went to 1100 just using the HCG alone. My doctor at the time had been on HCG for two years straight.

[/quote]

That approach will work if the testes are willing and able to respond to LH or HCG. In that case, the pituitary is not producing. One should then be checked for HGH production by checking IGF-1 levels to see if other pituitary functions are not right.

Tests for LF and FSH can determine if the testes or pituitary are the problem.

This thread has leaped to the “over 35 lifter” forum.

I don’t think it’s “abnormal”, I just it’s pretty damn low, especially considering he’s only 24! The “normal” range is something like 200-800, so 240 would make him “normal”.

Low t levels are not only going to effect strenght/weight gain, athletic performance. But also your mood, and performance at work/life!

That is wild to hear HCG raised you up over 700 points btw.

Monopoly

well, i just got my first injection this morning. the doc has me on 200mg of depo test every two weeks. is depo test the same as test cyp?

Depo is a trade name for test cyp. Test cyp and test ethanate are interchangeable in terms of effect, dose and half life. Test cyp is very common in the USA.

You need to learn to self inject and then inject every week, preferably more than once a week. Some docs do not understand. You T will spike then crash and you will feel that crash. And the very high levels of the spike promote higher T–>E conversion. The increased E will make the liver respond with more SHBG that soaks up E, as well as your free test (FT). So this all increases your E:T ratio that makes you feel like crap during the crash. And the number of days in a crash state can get longer and longer. So just having a high TT level is not the key to hormone wellness. This is not to bum you out, but give you an understanding so that you can report problems to your doc and go after needed changes. Myself, I went from weekly self injections in the butt to injecting small doses with #29 insulin syringes in the leg EOD. That was an improvement, but the key to unlock the benefits of TRT for me was the aromatase inhibitor arimidex/anastrozole.

It is a journey, glad to see that you are getting started.

so i should just tell him i want to self inject and he will be ok with that, is it my choice or can he say no? i would prefer to do it at home, the doc is about 25 miles away.

[quote]mazilla wrote:
so i should just tell him i want to self inject and he will be ok with that, is it my choice or can he say no? i would prefer to do it at home, the doc is about 25 miles away.[/quote]

Yes, tell your doc that you want to self inject. Perhaps the nurse will be ok teaching you. There are some details to doing it right. It is a big leap. Sure was for me and I was determined. My first injection was done by me with a nurse telling me what to do. I was good at injections in the gluts, but I find the injections in the leg much easier and more comfortable. With more frequent doses, the amounts are smaller. So IM depth requirements are reduced as well. If you have little leg fat, 1/2" insulin needles are long enough for IM EOD injections. And as long as you are self injecting, injecting HCG fits in well to an EOD schedule.

Test cyp, HCG and needles are very cheap at Sam’s Club with a business membership if you do not have insurance for injectables.

[quote]KSman wrote:
mazilla wrote:
so i should just tell him i want to self inject and he will be ok with that, is it my choice or can he say no? i would prefer to do it at home, the doc is about 25 miles away.

Yes, tell your doc that you want to self inject. Perhaps the nurse will be ok teaching you. There are some details to doing it right. It is a big leap. Sure was for me and I was determined. My first injection was done by me with a nurse telling me what to do. I was good at injections in the gluts, but I find the injections in the leg much easier and more comfortable. With more frequent doses, the amounts are smaller. So IM depth requirements are reduced as well. If you have little leg fat, 1/2" insulin needles are long enough for IM EOD injections. And as long as you are self injecting, injecting HCG fits in well to an EOD schedule.

Test cyp, HCG and needles are very cheap at Sam’s Club with a business membership if you do not have insurance for injectables.[/quote]

bhwhattt? i can get test, hcg and needles at SAMS CLUB??? wtf, what about costco.

so i need a script for hcg as well, i’ll mention that to him next week when i go back. i was reading that if you use too much hcg, or for too long that it will also shut down the hpta. i’m not sure what too much is, but do i need to cycle on and of the hcg since i will be using it FOREVER?

[quote]mazilla wrote:
KSman wrote:
mazilla wrote:
so i should just tell him i want to self inject and he will be ok with that, is it my choice or can he say no? i would prefer to do it at home, the doc is about 25 miles away.

Yes, tell your doc that you want to self inject. Perhaps the nurse will be ok teaching you. There are some details to doing it right. It is a big leap. Sure was for me and I was determined. My first injection was done by me with a nurse telling me what to do. I was good at injections in the gluts, but I find the injections in the leg much easier and more comfortable. With more frequent doses, the amounts are smaller. So IM depth requirements are reduced as well. If you have little leg fat, 1/2" insulin needles are long enough for IM EOD injections. And as long as you are self injecting, injecting HCG fits in well to an EOD schedule.

Test cyp, HCG and needles are very cheap at Sam’s Club with a business membership if you do not have insurance for injectables.

bhwhattt? i can get test, hcg and needles at SAMS CLUB??? wtf, what about costco.

so i need a script for hcg as well, i’ll mention that to him next week when i go back. i was reading that if you use too much hcg, or for too long that it will also shut down the hpta. i’m not sure what too much is, but do i need to cycle on and of the hcg since i will be using it FOREVER?
[/quote]

Im curious about costco as well.

Ksman, what is it with doctors and there once every two week injections? Have they not cought on yet?

[quote]T-Nick wrote:
mazilla wrote:
KSman wrote:
mazilla wrote:
so i should just tell him i want to self inject and he will be ok with that, is it my choice or can he say no? i would prefer to do it at home, the doc is about 25 miles away.

Yes, tell your doc that you want to self inject. Perhaps the nurse will be ok teaching you. There are some details to doing it right. It is a big leap. Sure was for me and I was determined. My first injection was done by me with a nurse telling me what to do. I was good at injections in the gluts, but I find the injections in the leg much easier and more comfortable. With more frequent doses, the amounts are smaller. So IM depth requirements are reduced as well. If you have little leg fat, 1/2" insulin needles are long enough for IM EOD injections. And as long as you are self injecting, injecting HCG fits in well to an EOD schedule.

Test cyp, HCG and needles are very cheap at Sam’s Club with a business membership if you do not have insurance for injectables.

bhwhattt? i can get test, hcg and needles at SAMS CLUB??? wtf, what about costco.

so i need a script for hcg as well, i’ll mention that to him next week when i go back. i was reading that if you use too much hcg, or for too long that it will also shut down the hpta. i’m not sure what too much is, but do i need to cycle on and of the hcg since i will be using it FOREVER?

Im curious about costco as well.

Ksman, what is it with doctors and there once every two week injections? Have they not cought on yet?
[/quote]

Mine would only do a 1 per MONTH!!!

What a waste.

Yes, stuff is cheap as Sam’s pharmacy.

10ml 200mg/ml text cyp “Watsons” $42, same product at Walgreens is close to $100.

100 #29 .5" .5ml insulin syringes $12

100 #23 1.5" 3ml syringes $18

10,000 iu HCG multidose vial kit $16.25

Prep swabs are cheap too.

I checked out Costco for the test cyp, expensive!

At Sam’s, you need a Business Membership to get this discount. The non-business membership will not get these prices!! These are for “no insurance”. For insurance, I think they would charge the full costs. At Walgreen’s, myself and others have been charged $1.00 or more for each #23 1.5" 3ml syringe!

If you can’t get a business membership yourself, you can tag onto someone else’s business membership as a sub card. So ask around with your friends to see who has a business membership. Some companies make these available to their employees.

When I get my “gear” at Sam’s I have this huge grin on my face.

I use the slin pins for test and HCG, now using the #23’s for reconstitution of the HCG and poking larger pilot holes in the rubber of the test cyp to reduce dulling of the #29 pins… which also works well for me.

So I go nuts for a good bargain on this stuff! As the arimidex made everything work so well… I also have to rave about that… see TRT+AI thread on the “over 35 lifter” BB.

I also do something unorthodox with the slin pins. I, like many diabetics, get more than one injection from a syringe load. For the HCG, instead of adding 10ml of water, I add 5. Then .5ml in the syringe has 4x250iu doses. And for the test cyp, for 100mg/wk, I take 28mg/.14ml EOD. I load .56 into the .5ml syringe for 4 injections. After injecting, if not empty, I clean the end of the syringe and the needle with a prep swab and recap. The HCG syringe goes back to the fridge. It is important to not let the end of the needle touch the plastic cap as that would probably dull it and make subsequent injections uncomfortable. This practice is not for anyone who is immune compromised or taking drugs that depress the immune systems such as for RA or other auto-immune system conditions. I have not had any problems with this. Results will depend on technique. Of course, this is at your own risk. A doctor might see the practice as relatively harmless, but if you ask, your doc should be covering his ass and be telling you not too.

(Again, injecting test cyp with .5" needle requires thin skin/fat on the upper legs.)

[quote]KSman wrote:
Yes, stuff is cheap as Sam’s pharmacy.

10ml 200mg/ml text cyp “Watsons” $42, same product at Walgreens is close to $100.

100 #29 .5" .5ml insulin syringes $12

100 #23 1.5" 3ml syringes $18

10,000 iu HCG multidose vial kit $16.25

Prep swabs are cheap too.

I checked out Costco for the test cyp, expensive!

At Sam’s, you need a Business Membership to get this discount. The non-business membership will not get these prices!! These are for “no insurance”. For insurance, I think they would charge the full costs. At Walgreen’s, myself and others have been charged $1.00 or more for each #23 1.5" 3ml syringe!

If you can’t get a business membership yourself, you can tag onto someone else’s business membership as a sub card. So ask around with your friends to see who has a business membership. Some companies make these available to their employees.

When I get my “gear” at Sam’s I have this huge grin on my face.

I use the slin pins for test and HCG, now using the #23’s for reconstitution of the HCG and poking larger pilot holes in the rubber of the test cyp to reduce dulling of the #29 pins… which also works well for me.

So I go nuts for a good bargain on this stuff! As the arimidex made everything work so well… I also have to rave about that… see TRT+AI thread on the “over 35 lifter” BB.

I also do something unorthodox with the slin pins. I, like many diabetics, get more than one injection from a syringe load. For the HCG, instead of adding 10ml of water, I add 5. Then .5ml in the syringe has 4x250iu doses. And for the test cyp, for 100mg/wk, I take 28mg/.14ml EOD. I load .56 into the .5ml syringe for 4 injections. After injecting, if not empty, I clean the end of the syringe and the needle with a prep swab and recap. The HCG syringe goes back to the fridge. It is important to not let the end of the needle touch the plastic cap as that would probably dull it and make subsequent injections uncomfortable. This practice is not for anyone who is immune compromised or taking drugs that depress the immune systems such as for RA or other auto-immune system conditions. I have not had any problems with this. Results will depend on technique. Of course, this is at your own risk. A doctor might see the practice as relatively harmless, but if you ask, your doc should be covering his ass and be telling you not too.

(Again, injecting test cyp with .5" needle requires thin skin/fat on the upper legs.)[/quote]

So much Dam Info!. Im gonna have to Pm you alot in the future when I finally get all my stuff.

Will I have issues getting insulin needles without a script for insulin needles? Meaning Im probably not going to mention the EOD thing to my doc…Or will I have to in order to get my needles? Im assuming he is going to give me a script for the bigger, once a week needles.