T Nation

23 YO - On 120mg/wk Cyp for 6 Months

.5 arimidex eod
was doing one weekly IM shot, about a month ago I switched to two subq injections/week

decent results in the gym, libido still stinks, fatique

-age 23
-height 6’1
-waist 38
-weight 212
-describe body and facial hair: lot of body hair, chest, back, angus etc… facial hair does not grow in fully however

-describe where you carry fat and how changed: lower stomach, chest

-health conditions, symptoms [history]: low libido, weak orgasm, PE, depression, anxiety

-Rx and OTC drugs, any hair loss drugs or prostate drugs ever: SSRI’s from 16-22, accutane at age 16, wellbutrin 21-22, rogaine and nizoral shampoo currently, used to supp with saw palmetto

-describe diet: diet currently on point

-describe training: 4 day lifting split, 1-2 days low intensity cardio

-testes ache, ever, with a fever?: not that I can think of

-how have morning wood and nocturnal erections changed: since starting trt I have gotten morning wood on occasion for the first time since i could remember, handful of nocturnal emmissions as well which I had never had before TRT

latest labs

Testosterone Serum : 449 ng/dl (348/1197)
Testosterone %Free and weakly bound: 43.3 (9-46)
Testosterone F+W bound: 194.4 ng/dl (40-250)

DHEA Sulfate: 326 ug/dl (211-492)

Testosterone Total: 472.4 ng/dl(348-1197)

Vitamin D. 25 Hydroxy: 37.5 (30-100)

Estradiol, sensitive: 5 (3-70)

SHBG: 16.2(16.5-55.9)

im bumping up the test cyp to 140(two 70 mg cyp subq shots) and going to .5 arimidex e3d opposed to eod

any thoughts/advice would be greatly appreciated

I am no expert, but judging by your results, I would double the amount of test. Also, what was your E2?

5

im hoping the increased test will bump it up as well as spacing out the arimidex a day longer

Im also taking HCG 250iu day before each shot

What was your prior T dose per week?

If 100mg, Arimidex should have been 1mg/week.

At this point we have to consider that you might be an anastrozole over-responder. With E2=5, you would need to stop Arimidex for 7 days, then resume at a lower dose.

[quote]KSman wrote:
What was your prior T dose per week?

If 100mg, Arimidex should have been 1mg/week.

At this point we have to consider that you might be an anastrozole over-responder. With E2=5, you would need to stop Arimidex for 7 days, then resume at a lower dose.[/quote]

x2

Your E2 is way too low, but what is the reason you want to up your test dose ?
What results are you looking for ?
If its feelings of well being, just work on getting your E2 up.
If its muscle mass, you do not need more test. With low SHBG like yours you can get results with
lower amounts of test…your High free test shows this.

what im looking for is a better libido and well being, if it can help me any further in the gym i’ll like that as well, but I am able to put on and retain muscle with what i have now

even prior to trt i could put on muscle with low t

im going to stop arimidex for a week as suggested(whats the reasoning behind this btw?)

and ill either do .25 e3d or .125eod?

not sure about the half life of arimidex etc… would I be better off one way or the other?

[quote]PKNY wrote:
Your E2 is way too low, but what is the reason you want to up your test dose ?
What results are you looking for ?
If its feelings of well being, just work on getting your E2 up.
If its muscle mass, you do not need more test. With low SHBG like yours you can get results with
lower amounts of test…your High free test shows this.

[/quote]

so you see no advantage to bumping up the T?

I would just balance up the E2 and bring it as close to 22 first.
Libido and well being are tied to a healthy E2 level as much as T being in the upper portion
of the 300-1100 scale (which you do not need as a result of low SHBG).

As you age, your SHBG will rise, and you will need to use more T to get the same effects. Save
the excess capacity (and higher T dosages) for later on in life. Besides that, it sounds like you are getting very positive effects physically from the current does you are using.

The one week break of the adex will clear it from your system based on its half life.
When you start back I would try .25e3d and give it two weeks before you make any judgements.
KSman may have a better formula for your adex does.

I didn’t see anything about HCG in your protocol, if you aren’t using it you are missing a big part of TRT. HCG is the thing that really enhanced my libido and sense of well being over just Test+AI. Plus
at 23, you will want to protect your fertility.

GOOD LUCK.

[quote]PKNY wrote:
I would just balance up the E2 and bring it as close to 22 first.
Libido and well being are tied to a healthy E2 level as much as T being in the upper portion
of the 300-1100 scale (which you do not need as a result of low SHBG).

As you age, your SHBG will rise, and you will need to use more T to get the same effects. Save
the excess capacity (and higher T dosages) for later on in life. Besides that, it sounds like you are getting very positive effects physically from the current does you are using.

The one week break of the adex will clear it from your system based on its half life.
When you start back I would try .25e3d and give it two weeks before you make any judgements.
KSman may have a better formula for your adex does.

I didn’t see anything about HCG in your protocol, if you aren’t using it you are missing a big part of TRT. HCG is the thing that really enhanced my libido and sense of well being over just Test+AI. Plus
at 23, you will want to protect your fertility.

GOOD LUCK.

[/quote]

I take 250 iu hcg day before each injection

With my shbg where it’s at would bumping up test not make a difference other than driving up my E closer to 20s?
(ananolic, mentally, libido etc…)

I think I’m going to go to 140/w with .25 e3d and test labs after a month
I’m definitely not looking to go higher than 140mg of cyp/week

So if I can get e2 close to 22 would it make a difference whether I’m 470 ngdl testosterone compared to 700+ngdl

I’ve read in many places (and its what I do) that HCG has a somewhat immediate effect, and then one 72hrs later. The trick is to take HCG the day before your Test. For example, if you are doing your test shots on M & Th, you would do the HCG on either Sun & Wed or Tuesday and Saturday. This way you get some overlap of natural test (which will give you feelings of well being) from the HCG along with the injected test you are using. Its almost like getting dosed 4x per week instead of 2x. When you do both injections the same day you are taking that overlap away.

Bumping your test can help to increase your E2 faster, but yours (I suspect) is so low do to over responding to adex. It is better to clear your system (of adex) for 7 days, and start over. Figure out what dose of test + what dose of an AI gets you to a specific level which is determined by blood testing after you run that protocol for at least two weeks.

For instance, if 120mg of test and .75 adex gets you to T=500 and E2=22 than you know the basic formula for how you will respond to those baseline doses. Then, if you wanted to use a higher dose of test in the future you would know what ratios of test to ai you needed to run to keep E2 in the 22ish range.

Higher test will make you more anabolic, but not without enough E2 to go along with it. With very low E2 even very high doses of test (500+mg/wk) will yield marginal results.
Like everything in life, its about balance.

With TRT guys, most of us are older and T response to hCG is not so significant. For me, adding hCG to T increased T by 17%, not a big factor. If you inject T EOD, T levels are not changing much at all then hCG timing does not make any sense. So one can inject T and hCG at the same time and have 3.5 injection sessions per week. With injections twice per week and hCG on different days, one has 4 injection sessions per week and more T variations. I do not see any significant advantage to the hCG timing ideas. Crisler put a lot of personal currency into this idea, based on weekly injections. With more frequent, does not mean much, but would for some young TRT guys.

Okay so Tuesday was my first 70 mg(of 2/week) injection

Monday was my last dose of arimidex at .5 mg

Starting next Monday should I start with arimidex .25 e3d or should I hold off on any arimidex for a while and let my body respond to the increase in test

Or should I go with .125 e3d

Either way, you are using separate syringes for T and HCG so you still have the same amount of pokes…
Being that an injection session is all of 5 minutes, I error on the side of opposite days
for HCG and T, with an eye towards maximizing the compounds.

hcg injections are on day prior to test injection day

Start the ADEX monday, most over responders need 1/4 to 1/8th the normal dose of 1mg adex/100mg test.
Really up to you, but based on that formula you should try .25e3d as you are using 140mg test.
BTW, adex just does not agree with some guys, I over respond to it as well, and it gives me bad side effects even when properly dosed. Still, adex is the cheapest, easiest AI to use and titrate.

Do it for a few weeks, note how you feel, and get blood work done so you know where you are numerically.
Remember though, E2=22 is just a number…some people feel better with E2= 25-28ish some better 18-21ish, get the blood work numbers, but be sure you feel the way you want to despite the exact number given here.

on another topic

do you think this protocol and duration ive been on it has compromised my fertility?

would freezing sperm be pointless at this point

hCG will prevent loss of fertility. You can have sperm counts to monitor and know for sure. You can occasionally stop hCG and use nolvadex for a while for FSH action.

Okay so current protocol is 140mg test cyp/week, 250IU hcg 2x/week, and .25 arimidex e3d

these are my latest labs, this is the first time i did a 24 hour urine lab

Estrone(E1) 1.8 LOW Range = 3-12 ug

Estradiol(E2) .9 Range = 0-7 ug

Estriol(E3) 1.2 = Range = 1-16 ug

Total Estrogens 3.9 LOW Range = 4-22 ug

Testosterone 122 HIGH Range = 45-85 ug

DHT 5.4 Range = 0-13 ug

Androsttenetriol(5-AT) 558 Range = 42-710 ug

Androsterone 3377 Range = 798-4705

THA 113 Range = 52-257 ug

Cortisol 71 Range = 35-168 ug

THF 1112 Range = 942-2800 ug

5a-THF 2846 HIGH Range = 796-2456 ug

Main thing I can say physically is that my joints are very very clicky. My libido is a bit low most of the time. In the gym i’m kicking ass making strength gains but I am definately feeling fatigued.

So my next move would be to discontinue arimidex completely?

any ideas?