T Nation

23, Starting Clomid+T3

Hello everyone. I have had a history of hypothyroidism (took Armour Thyroid for about a year but my thyroid hormone levels barely rose and I didn’t see much benefit so I stopped…) also I had low testosterone at 21 and estradiol was at the top of the range. I have high body fat…even when I went to the gym to stack up my body fat increased (along with muscle mass but not as quickly)…I also had a trainer.

Anyway, the doctors were not very helpful. I must have done a million tests. So I stopped caring for a while and things are fine. I am not having a lot of symptoms so to speak…except now I want to get in shape. But I do believe I need some help to at least normalize everything. I order Clomid, 50mg and T3…I am taking 25mcg of T3 a day and will go up to 50mcg. I do not feel better or worse.

I have always been overly emotional…recently I could burst out crying if I hear a sad story lol. I have also been more ‘feminine’ emotionally speaking. So I may naturally have high estrogen, which is fine. Also my body fat percent doesn’t help matters in increasing estradiol conversion (my body fat is like 18-20%)…The endocrinologist said it could have been the thyroid but even with supplementation, my T3 and T4 was the EXACT same on 1 grain of Armour, but my TSH went down to like 2.5 so she said she wants to keep me there.

MY QUESTION: Can Clomid help to restore more normalized hormones? Like 50mg every day? I am also taking a diet pill but that is whatever. I am going to the gym 4 days a week, a least an hour and a half a day. I have very low exercise tolerance and last night fell over due to low blood pressure. Which was embarassing…so I need to work myself up.

I gained like 20lbs due to binge eating. My diet is changing, but I won’t be strict because eating is fun for me. I don’t need a perfect body, but I don’t want a lot of fat.

Here are some numbers from labs a yr ago:

TSH: 6.2 (.4-4.5Miu/l)
tESTOSTERONE: 204 (241-827ng/dL)
FSH: 2 (1.6-8 mIU/mL)
LH: 3.3 (1.5-9.3mIU/ML)
T3, total: 80 (76-181)
T4: 8.2 (4.5-12)
Estradiol: 48 pg/ml (13-54)
Prolactin: 32ng (4-30)

These are all the labs I could find. I definitely have some sort of estrogen dominance issue. My cholesterol is totally perfect, all in the low range with hdl good. I cannot find all the other labs throughout the time I went. Hopefully Clomid will help decrease the estrogen negative feed back on my T.

****Also I have done 50mg of iodoral+ 200mcg of selenium…I have taken kelp regularly and take 2 drogs of Lugol’s once in a while. So it isn’t a iodine deficiency. I have loaded up a lot on iodine but I did find it to be helpful which is why I continue it! I don’t have any mental or lethargy issues though I did suffer from severe depression at one point in my life I am not depressed now. Morning erections occur sometimes but not all the time.

Libido overall is good, though I don’t have a lot of sex because I find sex with people I don’t love weird! But I get erections when I want to and they are maintained.

SERMs (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators) block, not lower estrogen.

Clomid and Tamoxifen are mixed antagonists/agonists of the ER. Clomid is more of an agonist than Tamoxifen is in more tissues. Its thoughts that Clomid acts as an agonist in certain parts of the brain that control emotion, hence the emotional sides we experience.

Tamoxifen has a higer binding affinity for breast tissue than Clomid does.

Both are antagonists in breast tissue and the hypothalamus (hence the serum T increase) but its postulated Tamoxifen is more an an antagonist at the pituitary and Clomid an agonist. Both seem to be agonist in the liver and other selective tissues.

again ask KSman. maybe clomid is the right thing for you but I’m not sure…

prolactin is high… has your doctor looked into it?
Lactotroph adenomas (prolactinomas) are benign (non-cancerous) tumors of the pituitary gland that produce prolactin and thereby cause higher than normal blood prolactin concentrations. They can cause symptoms, either when the high blood prolactin concentration interferes with the function of the ovaries or testicles or, less commonly, when the adenoma grows large enough to compress nearby structures in the head, such as the nerves to the eyes.

Prolactinomas occur in both men and women but are more commonly diagnosed in women who are less than 50 years than in older women or men.

Prolactinomas can usually be treated successfully with medication alone. Medication lowers the prolactin level in the blood substantially, often to normal, and also usually reduces tumor size. However, a minority of these tumors do not respond to medication and must be treated with surgery or, less commonly, radiation therapy.

Thank you 84aces…I have thought about an AI. I think I may aromatize a lot. However I though clomid may be good so it could somehow reset T-Production. My body fat does not help the estrogen production, so if I produce more T and lose the fat, this should help without decreasing estradiol directly? Not to mention anti-e pills are expensive. I have tried liquidex but had no effect, plus can we be sure they are even legitimate?

Doctors have proven to be useless…prolactin is not high enough to warrant a tumor or that is what my dr said. But maybe an anti-e would be better but again it is about 120 dollars :frowning:

my Girlfriend had high just above range prolactin and has a tumor… Like i said I know nothing but the doc should not just let high test results on esp when concerning such an important gland as the pituitary. for a guy so young with so many issues i would be demanding answers my friend… Docs are not going to take care of you… ASK FOR ANOTHER REFERRAL

KSman would be able to help you better than I… maybe leave him a message on KSman is here and he will have a look… read all the stickys and try to give as much info as possible even blood work that seems to be fine as they are trying to find stuff doctors over look

I would limit myself to maybe 45 mins at the gym… hour and a half prolly puts you into exhaustion and does more harm then good esp with your low T scores…

[quote]iw84aces wrote:
my Girlfriend had high just above range prolactin and has a tumor… Like i said I know nothing but the doc should not just let high test results on esp when concerning such an important gland as the pituitary. for a guy so young with so many issues i would be demanding answers my friend… Docs are not going to take care of you… ASK FOR ANOTHER REFERRAL

KSman would be able to help you better than I… maybe leave him a message on KSman is here and he will have a look… read all the stickys and try to give as much info as possible even blood work that seems to be fine as they are trying to find stuff doctors over look

I would limit myself to maybe 45 mins at the gym… hour and a half prolly puts you into exhaustion and does more harm then good esp with your low T scores… [/quote]

Thanks…I don’t think I have too many issues. I am very healthy, all my other labs came out perfect, I never get sick, etc. Sure my hormones are a little screwy but they aren’t horribly affecting my life. I do want more T and a better thyroid though since it will help me lose fat! But even so I think I could lose fat if I really put my mind to it (though it will be more difficult :slight_smile: )…Yes I can only stand going to the gym for like 45 mins most of the time I get too tired :)…Maybe it is just how I am.

I am also a vegetarian…was vegan for 5yrs of my life. I am 5’9" and weigh 190lbs. My dad and 2 grandfathers lost hair at an early age but my hair is very full and no evidence of losing any thankfully. Maybe the higher estrogen helps lol…? My testicles are good size (the doctors checked them). I did starve myself for months when I was 13 and also took Accutane…overall energy levels are pretty good. I meditate and am overall positive so this invariably helps. SHBG was on the low end of the range (don’t have the labs but I remember this)…free T was actually in the middle of the range which must be because SHBG was so low!

So I have been on Clomid for 3 days, 50mcg of t3 for like 2 weeks. My intermittent bloating has decreased since the t3…Clomid, my testicles are fuller so it must mean something. I have no effects, good or bad other than that. Maybe a little nauseous more than usual or feeling like I am on an antidepressant-a little spacey.

You need more labs, did you read the lab sticky?

Where are you located?

Post everything you have.

From what you posted here is what I can tell you.

Hypothyroidism and low T3. You need to test Thyroglobulin AB, TPO AB, and get a thyroid ultrasound.
You need to find a thyroid specialist with experience because I think they were underdosing you. TSH should be lower than 2.5 if properly medicated, ideally closer to 1 sometimes less. Perhaps Armour + cytomel in your case, but rule out Hashi.

LH and FSH indicate secondary hypogonadism. You are estrogen dominant, E2 should be near 20. That can repress your LH and FSH output. Not to mention prolactin also does that and with your lab result you might have a prolactinoma. You need to get an MRI.

Here is the course of action I’d recommend you:

  1. STOP clomid, it will probably raise your E2 more, you can try a HPTA restart with nolvadex later on, if the conditions are right.

  2. MRI if a prolactinoma is found its mostly likely micro and treatable with cabergoline.

  3. Arimidex is pretty strong so I’d recommend high dose DIM, Indole Carbinol, Calcium gluconate, and check if that is enough to lower your E2 to about 20 to 30. Give it two to three weeks before testing E2.

  4. Get new labs to get a better picture of your health.
    You are vegan?
    Test: B-12 and ferritin. Also cholesterol could be low and that can contribute to low T.
    CMP
    CBC
    TT
    FT
    DHEAS
    E2
    Prolactin
    ACTH
    Cortisol
    GH
    IGF1
    Vitamin D
    TSH, TPO AB, TGAB, ultrasound

  5. Get your thyroid under control.

  6. Assuming E2, thyroid, and, prolactin are under control testosterone may bounce back, if not you can then attempt a nolvadex restart. If it fails you can try HCG monotherapy 250iu EOD AI if needed. If all fails T+HCG+AI. If there is a prolactinoma endogenous production might not bounce back until tumor shrinks enough.

  7. Fats suchs as monounsaturated are important I recommend hemp oil, nuts, seed, and EFA. Address any deficiencies vegans especially need to be careful of b-12, iron, and zinc deficiency.

[quote]Tunapancake wrote:
You need more labs, did you read the lab sticky?

Where are you located?

Post everything you have.

From what you posted here is what I can tell you.

Hypothyroidism and low T3. You need to test Thyroglobulin AB, TPO AB, and get a thyroid ultrasound.
You need to find a thyroid specialist with experience because I think they were underdosing you. TSH should be lower than 2.5 if properly medicated, ideally closer to 1 sometimes less. Perhaps Armour + cytomel in your case, but rule out Hashi.

LH and FSH indicate secondary hypogonadism. You are estrogen dominant, E2 should be near 20. That can repress your LH and FSH output. Not to mention prolactin also does that and with your lab result you might have a prolactinoma. You need to get an MRI.

Here is the course of action I’d recommend you:

  1. STOP clomid, it will probably raise your E2 more, you can try a HPTA restart with nolvadex later on, if the conditions are right.

  2. MRI if a prolactinoma is found its mostly likely micro and treatable with cabergoline.

  3. Arimidex is pretty strong so I’d recommend high dose DIM, Indole Carbinol, Calcium gluconate, and check if that is enough to lower your E2 to about 20 to 30. Give it two to three weeks before testing E2.

  4. Get new labs to get a better picture of your health.
    You are vegan?
    Test: B-12 and ferritin. Also cholesterol could be low and that can contribute to low T.
    CMP
    CBC
    TT
    FT
    DHEAS
    E2
    Prolactin
    ACTH
    Cortisol
    GH
    IGF1
    Vitamin D
    TSH, TPO AB, TGAB, ultrasound

  5. Get your thyroid under control.

  6. Assuming E2, thyroid, and, prolactin are under control testosterone may bounce back, if not you can then attempt a nolvadex restart. If it fails you can try HCG monotherapy 250iu EOD AI if needed. If all fails T+HCG+AI. If there is a prolactinoma endogenous production might not bounce back until tumor shrinks enough.

  7. Fats suchs as monounsaturated are important I recommend hemp oil, nuts, seed, and EFA. Address any deficiencies vegans especially need to be careful of b-12, iron, and zinc deficiency.
    [/quote]

Unfortunately my health insurance isn’t as good anymore and I will have to pay up to my deductible till I get those tests which is out of the question. So I have to go with what I have/ Will take liquid letrozole, very low dose when I am getting near to the end of my clomid dose. My b12 and folate are both high. I take 50mg of zinc a day. I also take algae omega 3 every day (600mg DHA, 360EPA)…

It is odd because I have had no moodiness or depression or anything on the 50mg a day. A lot of guys and girls say they PMS and feel more sad. But I actually feel better…I was happy before, but I just feel more elated. I also feel LESS weepy when sad things occur. Maybe since I am used to estrogen the clomid doesn’t cause me any difference or perhaps it is increasing the T in my body. Also I am taking the 50mcg of t3 which could be helping. Anyway, should I take the clomid for another month after this and/or use an AI before getting off the clomid?

So I am still taking clomid 50mg with the 50mcg of t3. I am on a 80-90% raw food diet. Green smoothies in the morning, as much fruit and veggies as I want. Salads. I exercise about 45 minutes 4 days a week. I have lost about 10lbs. I ordered Letrozole.

Will take about .25mg every other day once I am done with Clomid. I have more morning erections than I did in the past. Recovery time for working out is pretty good where I used to be sore for like a week after!..

You know everything so why are you here???

So after 30 days on Clomid, 50mg…I have been having daily morning erections. When I work out, instead of being sore for days, I am not sore AT ALL. I have had no side effects. I began to take Letrozole, .25mg ed, and my libido dropped a bit. Perhaps I don’t need an AI at all?..

I hope that LH is not getting too high.

Read these stickies:

  • advice for new guys
  • thyroid basics
    – with your thyroid meds, you should be getting proper body temperatures
    – were you using sea salt only and iodine deficient
    – thyroid enlarged, lumpy or asymmetric, neck looks thick around larynx?

What is your total cholesterol? If below 160 that is becoming a problem, 180 is idea.
What fats do you eat?

Hypothyroidism or high E2 can make you fat. Both are bad.

What meds were you taking before lab for prolactin?

Both tuna and I trold him to relax on the clomid and figure out prolactin… He did it anyways… kid knows everything and runs around telling people that prolactin doesn’t matter lol

[quote]iw84aces wrote:
Both tuna and I trold him to relax on the clomid and figure out prolactin… He did it anyways… kid knows everything and runs around telling people that prolactin doesn’t matter lol[/quote]

If you read the clomid has helped tremendously. I never said prolactin didn’t matter. And you are not a hormone expert. Sorry I know better than you about my body :slight_smile: .

[quote]KSman wrote:
I hope that LH is not getting too high.

Read these stickies:

  • advice for new guys
  • thyroid basics
    – with your thyroid meds, you should be getting proper body temperatures
    – were you using sea salt only and iodine deficient
    – thyroid enlarged, lumpy or asymmetric, neck looks thick around larynx?

What is your total cholesterol? If below 160 that is becoming a problem, 180 is idea.
What fats do you eat?

Hypothyroidism or high E2 can make you fat. Both are bad.

What meds were you taking before lab for prolactin?

[/quote]

I have done iodine loading in the past taking 50mg of iodoral or lugol’s as well as consuming kelp. I took selenium to decrease any likelihood of an immune reaction. I still take around 5mg of iodine every other day in the form of Lugol’s.

I was taking no medications when I tested for prolactin.

The Clomid has been good. As I mentioned, I have morning erections daily, no soreness after the gym…both are signs of improving testosterone. I am now out of clomid and am going to take .25mg of Letrozole daily…see where I am after that (I will taper down from the already small dose). The Letrozole should also keep LH decently high and will keep estrogen down so I am not in the same position as I was before Clomid. I definitely recommend Clomid! :slight_smile:

You have no labs!! Do you really even know if you need t3 and ur buying over seas? Are u being monitored? Did you drop off the clomid? Where and who helped you with your protocol??? And you are running are saying some silly stuff… We were trying to help you and what about lh receptors?? Not worried about that?

Are you tapering and do you have lab work? You are self medicating and YOU SON are no hormone expert either!! Difference between you and I is that I know who I am… Ur playing with fire.

[quote]iw84aces wrote:
You have no labs!! Do you really even know if you need t3 and ur buying over seas? Are u being monitored? Did you drop off the clomid? Where and who helped you with your protocol??? And you are running are saying some silly stuff… We were trying to help you and what about lh receptors?? Not worried about that?

Are you tapering and do you have lab work? You are self medicating and YOU SON are no hormone expert either!! Difference between you and I is that I know who I am… Ur playing with fire.[/quote]

I have labs I provided them in this thread. I don’t know if I ‘NEED’ T3, but it is helping nonetheless. I took my last pill of the clomid today and am now taking letrozole .25mg. A 30 day dose of clomid that is given to many men and women for fertility and off label hypogonadism will not destroy my ability to make testosterone. This has never happened. Everything I am doing is according to protocol…

So I was taking .5-.75mg of Letrozole every day. For the most part very few side effects except my libido crashed and morning erections were weak (but still there). I basically had erectile dysfunction…which I never had. I stopped the letrozole now and am now taking nothing. Not even the t3. I feel pretty good. Past two days I had rock hard erections and my libido has come back in force and so has erection strength. If I ever feel like I need another clomid cycle I probably will do so and then use the rest of my letrozole in very low doses. Definitely didn’t need that high of a dosage every day.