T Nation

21, Low Testosterone

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]Retinoid wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:

I am not nearly as knowledgeable about T as I am about thyroid and adrenals. I can throw out some ideas but I’d rather other people here address those issues.

Remove my vitamin test suggestions now: Still strongly suggest Reverse T3, Free T3, iron, ferritin (you can read about the hazards of low iron/ferritin at http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/ferritin/ , specifically section 3). Also thyroid antibodies, I suspect you don’t have Hashi’s but it is easy enough to know for sure.

I would expect both TSH and FT4 to go down if you are taking t3-only. I believe if high RT3 is the problem, taking t3-only meds will help. However, in that case you are merely treating symptoms as opposed to fixing the root cause.[/quote]

Thank you…Armour Thyroid is a mixture of t4 and t3. My doctor wanted to prescribe Synthroid so I had to fight for the Armour but he is a good doctor and listens…

The Armour is making me feel physically tired ironically. Like I want to go to sleep. Mentally I am not sluggish…I only had like 5hrs of sleep because yesterday the Armour made me VERY anxious and I couldn’t sleep…a lot like caffeine and drugs dealing with norepinephrine do to me. Today I took it in the morning and didn’t get anxiety but now I am slightly tired.

I’ll have him test:

free t4, t3, tsh, ferritin, cortisol

He only ordered free t4 and tsh for my next labs!

Do you know if I can just check them myself or do I need to call him?[/quote]

You can ask him if they can send them straight to you… or else get a copy when you are there. I’m not sure what his policy is.

T3 has a short half-life… you may be better off with half the dose, twice per day (if you are dosing once per day).

I can’t say this for sure without more labs, but my “educated guess” is that Synthroid is the wrong call. Your FT4 level looks pretty close to optimal to me. The problem seems to lie elsewhere - I’m guessing high RT3.[/quote]

Based on my total t3, it is pretty low almost TOO LOW. So I am sure I have too little t3. What I am going to do is begin supplementing with iron. Since my next appointment is in 6 weeks I mine as well supplement now and see if this helps with my symptoms. I will continue to take some iodine…I already consume a lot of selenium and take zinc, vitamin c and b vitamins. If this doesn’t help then it is the adrenals which makes things more complicated. Taking some iron won’t kill me though so it is worth a shot for the first thing to do.

Okay I got vitamin e 200IU’s (667%) and iron 27mg (150%). I will take the iron 2-3 times a day with vitamin c and take the vitamin e 1 time a day. Hopefully this helps! So my supplement list:

2-5mg of iodine
500-IUs of vitamin d
50mg of zinc
multivitamin
4-6grams of fish oil
54-81mg of iron
200IUs of vitamin e
2 b complexes
vitamin c powder 3 times a day
epsom salt (magnesium sulfate) at night
chlorophyll w/copper in the morning
Armour Thyroid .5grain in morning

I mine as well have fucking cancer…

[quote]Retinoid wrote:

The Armour is making me feel physically tired ironically. Like I want to go to sleep. Mentally I am not sluggish…I only had like 5hrs of sleep because yesterday the Armour made me VERY anxious and I couldn’t sleep…a lot like caffeine and drugs dealing with norepinephrine do to me. Today I took it in the morning and didn’t get anxiety but now I am slightly tired.

I’ll have him test:

free t4, t3, tsh, ferritin, [u]cortisol[/u]

[/quote]

Cortisol is going to be low. What is happening when you take your thyroid meds is you are increasing your thyroid metabolism, but aren’t delivering it to the cells with enough cortisol to do the job…this is a very common symptom of people with cortisol deficiency when taking thyroid meds…

Talk to your doctor about supplementing cortisol production with Life-Flo (or equivalent lipoderm based) pregnenolone. Around 50 mg (of preg, not the cream iteslf) to start, increasing up to 100, 200, or even 300 mg/day. You may have to add more thyroid meds as you increase dose, until you feel optimal.

[quote]Retinoid wrote:
Okay I got vitamin e 200IU’s (667%) and iron 27mg (150%). I will take the iron 2-3 times a day with vitamin c and take the vitamin e 1 time a day. Hopefully this helps! So my supplement list:

2-5mg of iodine
500-IUs of vitamin d
50mg of zinc
multivitamin
4-6grams of fish oil
54-81mg of iron
200IUs of vitamin e
2 b complexes
vitamin c powder 3 times a day
epsom salt (magnesium sulfate) at night
chlorophyll w/copper in the morning
Armour Thyroid .5grain in morning

I mine as well have fucking cancer…[/quote]

Boo hoo, you take a bunch of supplements and some meds…I tell ya what, if you want cancer, I’ll trade with ya…whattya say?

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

[quote]Retinoid wrote:

The Armour is making me feel physically tired ironically. Like I want to go to sleep. Mentally I am not sluggish…I only had like 5hrs of sleep because yesterday the Armour made me VERY anxious and I couldn’t sleep…a lot like caffeine and drugs dealing with norepinephrine do to me. Today I took it in the morning and didn’t get anxiety but now I am slightly tired.

I’ll have him test:

free t4, t3, tsh, ferritin, [u]cortisol[/u]

[/quote]

Cortisol is going to be low. What is happening when you take your thyroid meds is you are increasing your thyroid metabolism, but aren’t delivering it to the cells with enough cortisol to do the job…this is a very common symptom of people with cortisol deficiency when taking thyroid meds…

Talk to your doctor about supplementing cortisol production with Life-Flo (or equivalent lipoderm based) pregnenolone. Around 50 mg (of preg, not the cream iteslf) to start, increasing up to 100, 200, or even 300 mg/day. You may have to add more thyroid meds as you increase dose, until you feel optimal.
[/quote]

I have some pregnenolone but whenever I took it I didn’t feel that good. I began to feel a little melancholy so I stopped it…they are 25mg. I was afraid it may be increasing my estrogen as I think I have estrogen dominance…

Thyroid aside, are my testosterone levels good? My doctor wanted to give me TRT at first but I refused, now my testosterone levels look pretty good. The doctor is thinking with some thyroid hormone I will be able to lose the stubborn fat easier and it may help boost my whole endocrine system.

By the way. I had a CBC done like 4 months ago and my hematocrit was 97.3 (80-100 fL) which makes me think that my iron/ferritin is most likely optimal even though I ran out to get the supplements yesterday. My red blood cell is like 4.52 (4.3-5.8) though…since I have been supplementing with chlorophyll I can exercise more now without getting tired so this may have been a problem.

Your T numbers look “ok”, but not “great”…Free T indicates that you have a low SHBG and likely low estrogen as well, since it is higher, compared to your Total T levels. But yes, you should still check E2.

Your proclatin was high, did you masturbate, have sex, or play with babies/puppies prior to the test (within about 12-18 hours)?

I agree with your doc that improving your thyroid function will likely increase your T as well

Hematocrit, for whatever reason, doesn’t correspond very well to actual ferritin levels. For instance, my hematocrit is on the higher end of the range (sometimes over) but my ferritin is abysmal. Not a good correlation there.

Is your pregnenolone oral? If so, is it the MLM (micro lyponized matrix, or something…im sure I butchered the ‘L’ word)? Oral preg, aside from but sometimes including MLM, seems to be very dodgy with boosting cortisol as it has to pass through the liver before being utilized. Best type is transdermal cream in lipoderm base.

Did you take the preg (and get the spacey feelings) when you were on thyroid? If not, its probably due to depleting all your existing thyroid hormones at the time, and not conversion to estrogen. It has a long chain to go through in order to convert to E2–at least 4-5 different conversions…

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
Your T numbers look “ok”, but not “great”…Free T indicates that you have a low SHBG and likely low estrogen as well, since it is higher, compared to your Total T levels. But yes, you should still check E2.

Your proclatin was high, did you masturbate, have sex, or play with babies/puppies prior to the test (within about 12-18 hours)?

I agree with your doc that improving your thyroid function will likely increase your T as well

Hematocrit, for whatever reason, doesn’t correspond very well to actual ferritin levels. For instance, my hematocrit is on the higher end of the range (sometimes over) but my ferritin is abysmal. Not a good correlation there.

Is your pregnenolone oral? If so, is it the MLM (micro lyponized matrix, or something…im sure I butchered the ‘L’ word)? Oral preg, aside from but sometimes including MLM, seems to be very dodgy with boosting cortisol as it has to pass through the liver before being utilized. Best type is transdermal cream in lipoderm base.

Did you take the preg (and get the spacey feelings) when you were on thyroid? If not, its probably due to depleting all your existing thyroid hormones at the time, and not conversion to estrogen. It has a long chain to go through in order to convert to E2–at least 4-5 different conversions…[/quote]

The pregnenolone is oral and is made by ‘source naturals’ and is 25mg. It isn’t MLM.

I wasn’t on thyroid hormone but I was taking iodine. The iodine made me feel pretty good and clear headed and then the pregnenolone always made me feel ‘low’. And this happened on like 5 different occasions so I figured whatever it was converting into I didn’t need it.

My RBC is pretty low 4.5 on a scale of 4.3-5.8, so maybe the iron (with vitamin e) will help me overall and help relieve the stressed symptoms. I took an armour today and I felt fine. I also am still taking iodine but not as much even though the holistic community is saying I need to increase it to like 50mg to work…but I don’t believe that. I am happy/surprised my testosterone levels are higher.

As mentioned already, the preg probably wasn’t converting into anything detrimental–you just didn’t have enough thyroid to make use of it, so it started pooling…results in brain fog, lethargy, etc. (high E2 symptoms). I would give it another go, and monitor symptoms accordingly.

Would be better with TD preg or MLM, but you can make do with what you’ve got.

Dunno about 50 mg iodine a day, as 12.5 mg takes my urine concentration of iodine to 10x the upper range…i’ve actually dialed it back to only 12.5 mg/week as opposed to ED.

What about the questions regarding prolactin?

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
As mentioned already, the preg probably wasn’t converting into anything detrimental–you just didn’t have enough thyroid to make use of it, so it started pooling…results in brain fog, lethargy, etc. (high E2 symptoms). I would give it another go, and monitor symptoms accordingly.

Would be better with TD preg or MLM, but you can make do with what you’ve got.

Dunno about 50 mg iodine a day, as 12.5 mg takes my urine concentration of iodine to 10x the upper range…i’ve actually dialed it back to only 12.5 mg/week as opposed to ED.

What about the questions regarding prolactin?[/quote]

I didn’t orgasm 12hrs before the test. I will probably stop masturbating as much (like once every day) and I ordered some L-DOPA to counteract some of the prolactin. I knew my prolactin would be high and was probably higher when my testosterone was lower since I had so many mental symptoms (my reason for going to the doctor) and how wellbutrin was the only antidepressant that helped me with my mental symptoms (deals with reuptaking dopamine and norepinephrine). I definitely felt a lack of dopamine. I will take the pregnenolone if the iron doesn’t work…so far today I don’t feel anxious or spaced out and feel fine.

Yeah one guy said that anything under 100mg of iodine will not work…and that symptoms matter not labs. In any case the iodine did help me mentally and my temperature did rise but I just need help with this excess fat. i am not a fat person, but my body fat% is like 15% and I go to the gym 4-5 days a week and eat a clean diet (except on cheat days). I literally used to stay the same weight when I went to the gym and gained 2 pounds or more on my cheat day it is fucking ridiculous and unfair.

I think you have a little too high hopes from iron, but hopefully you will see some improvement. But in the end, iron is meant to help your thyroid function–that can be 100%, but if you don’t have cortisol to complement it, you will not enjoy the benefits.

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
I think you have a little too high hopes from iron, but hopefully you will see some improvement. But in the end, iron is meant to help your thyroid function–that can be 100%, but if you don’t have cortisol to complement it, you will not enjoy the benefits.[/quote]

Yeah…I am not taking much thyroid hormone yet only 30mg which is like…5mcg of t3 and 20mcg of t4. So a pretty low dose. I think my adrenals can deal with that dose right now. If we double it and I feel the effects of adrenal stress then I will no doubt supplement with prenenolone. It is just, pregnenolone is a very unpredictable supplement so I am cautious.

Your situation looks similar to mine. I’m still waiting on my rT3 results to come back.

I don’t want to start speculating, because I don’t feel I know much about it yet.

Good luck though, hope you feel better.

OP: TSH above 3.0 strongly indicates hypo. You do not have SUB clinical hypothyroidism, you have CLINICAL hypo. Thyroid med is not a “fat loss aid”; it is something you need for general health, and may have to take for the rest of your life. Deal with it.

Armour thyroid is good, but you are treating it like Tylenol. You can’t just take it one day; it will take a couple weeks of being on it for your body to adjust to it. HOWEVER, if it causes you hypER thyroid symptoms (heart palpitations, trembling hands, insomnia), then it may be too high a dose. Most hypo people go through a period of trial and error before they find the brand and dose that’s right for them.

You say “don’t wanna screw myself up by taking thyroid med”; newsflash: YOU HAVE HYPOTHYROIDISM. If anything, you screwed yourself up by starving yourself and taking ketamine. STOP SELF-MEDICATING. You’re young and have a chance to correct your mistakes.

Growth stopping is down to the hypo, I think. Hairiness can be caused by EXCESS cortisol, esp. if it’s w/ low test. Your test increased significantly just from the improvements you’ve made already, and you’re not even adequately addressing the thyroid yet. I think your T will be just fine.

[My TSH was 11-12 before meds, Synthroid did nothing for me, Armour was a little better, finally saw a holistic M.D. who tried sustained-release T3 which from a compounding pharmacist. That’s what works for me. Not endorsing, just informing.]

Iron: iron supplements are typically badly absorbed, and cause many people digestive upset. Eat grass-fed beef if possible; look up “heme iron” on the interwebz for more info. Otherwise your supplements look good.

[quote]SuperFast wrote:
OP: TSH above 3.0 strongly indicates hypo. You do not have SUB clinical hypothyroidism, you have CLINICAL hypo. Thyroid med is not a “fat loss aid”; it is something you need for general health, and may have to take for the rest of your life. Deal with it.

Armour thyroid is good, but you are treating it like Tylenol. You can’t just take it one day; it will take a couple weeks of being on it for your body to adjust to it. HOWEVER, if it causes you hypER thyroid symptoms (heart palpitations, trembling hands, insomnia), then it may be too high a dose. Most hypo people go through a period of trial and error before they find the brand and dose that’s right for them.

You say “don’t wanna screw myself up by taking thyroid med”; newsflash: YOU HAVE HYPOTHYROIDISM. If anything, you screwed yourself up by starving yourself and taking ketamine. STOP SELF-MEDICATING. You’re young and have a chance to correct your mistakes.

Growth stopping is down to the hypo, I think. Hairiness can be caused by EXCESS cortisol, esp. if it’s w/ low test. Your test increased significantly just from the improvements you’ve made already, and you’re not even adequately addressing the thyroid yet. I think your T will be just fine.

[My TSH was 11-12 before meds, Synthroid did nothing for me, Armour was a little better, finally saw a holistic M.D. who tried sustained-release T3 which from a compounding pharmacist. That’s what works for me. Not endorsing, just informing.]

Iron: iron supplements are typically badly absorbed, and cause many people digestive upset. Eat grass-fed beef if possible; look up “heme iron” on the interwebz for more info. Otherwise your supplements look good.[/quote]

Just putting it out there…I lost 3lbs since being on the thyroid medication after months of almost 20lbs of weight gain and great difficulty trying to stabilize it even with going to the gym 4-5 days a week.

I know I have hypothyroidism…but I feel like my thyroid isn’t totally fucked and it can still do the job on its own but right now it can’t. My t3 isn’t that great, but my t4 is good and my tsh is elevated most likely because my t3 is sucky…now why this is…many possibilities.

I don’t eat beef…I only eat fish, eggs for animal products. I take vitamin c with the iron.

My Testosterone improved enormously I am pleased and the free-T looks very good (which is what matters). My doctor was about to give me TRT but I declined many times and I am glad I did! Now I just need to get my L-Dopa and I will be good to go…

In another thread you stated:

[quote]

Retinold wrote:

[quote]
VTBalla34 wrote:
I didn’t want to bring up all the other times you have given absolutely piss poor advice on here that has no basis in reality, but this post put me over the edge.[/quote]

Please do so…besides you are one to talk telling me to take prenenolone to increase my cortisol when I actually have HIGH cortisol. I never attacked you ass. [/quote]

You must mean the part in this thread where you provided symptoms that indicate your thyroid meds are making you feel like shit later in the day, and I told you it is likely a cortisol issue since that is the most easily explained solution…and I didn’t tell you to take preg, I told you to talk to your doctor about using preg to boost cortisol if it is warranted…

Stop putting words into my mouth and learn to read…

You still haven’t posted cortisol results, so are you forming an opinion that you have high cortisol due to you being fat in the stomach area? Or do you have actual bloodwork to back it up instead of bro science?

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
In another thread you stated:

[quote]

Retinold wrote:

You told me that my cortisol would be low. Yes I got a blood test and it said I was slightly high but I am not doing anything about it because maybe the thyroid hormones will decrease it. Point is, I don’t attack you, EVER. And for you to attack me when I told someone that them losing a testicle shouldn’t decrease testosterone production and then I back it up and you said I give piss poor advice is immature and ridiculous. And I am not discussing this with you anymore. Keep your shit comments to yourself.

[quote]Retinoid wrote:
Yes I got a blood test and it said I was slightly high but I am not doing anything about it because maybe the thyroid hormones will decrease it. [/quote]

Explain what you mean by this

I find it interesting that you didn’t post this cortisol result or mention it until now, when did you get it done? Are you still having symptoms?

What was the result?

Was it an 8 am cortisol blood lab? Is that when you were having your symptoms, or were they later in the day? If so, it is possible that you have good cortisol in the mornings and it falls off throughout the day…

There have been other things aside from the testicular cancer thread that you have given spotty, at best, advice…I don’t point it out and rub your face in it because that would be immature, but I do usually try and correct it amenably…

I have nothing against you, and I admit that post in the TC thread put me over the edge because it is near and dear to my heart, but I really don’t think you realize your knowledge shortcomings when dealing with this…

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]Retinoid wrote:
Yes I got a blood test and it said I was slightly high but I am not doing anything about it because maybe the thyroid hormones will decrease it. [/quote]

Explain what you mean by this[/quote]

I don’t know if it DECREASES cortisol on a lab…however it decreases the effects of cortisol as it clears cortisol from the liver more quickly which is why people taking too much thyroid hormone (specifically t3) may get bone and joint pains all of a sudden or anxiety/stressed feelings “stressed adrenals” because there isn’t enough cortisol in the body for the body to deal with the added hormones. My cortisol levels weren’t high enough for me to really be concerned however I am testing them again in a couple of months with a few other things since I just increased my thyroid hormone. PM me if you want to follow up/argue against I am not coming on this thread again.

Why have you not posted your cortisol lab result?

What do you define as “high”? 8am draw should be at the top of the range in healthy individuals.