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20wk Test E

For very moderate gains over a longer period of time what do you guys thing about doign a 20wk Test E 250mg twice weekly? Would four weeks of PCT Nolva be fine or would you extend it to five weeks? Alternatively would the use of arimadex .25ml EoD help make the gains leaner?

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A) 10 weeks seems to be a minimum length for a long ester. Once you hit about 10-12 weeks (+/- depending on the person) you begin to peak, plus your estrogen levels also begin to climb comparatively.

B) The longer your suppressed the longer/more difficult it would be to recover. Extend the PCT, and change training regimen to compensate and keep most gains.

C) As far as stasis taper, not sure if I’ve heard that term. I’m assuming you mean tapering off the arimadex and the test e dosages towards the end.

D) Use arimadex to help decrease any bloat and estro related side effects.

I’m not the one doing it, so my stats won’t help much. The longest I would do is 14 weeks test e. At that point on test e alone it feels like you reach a platue anyway. Your not coming across as an arsehole, no need to apologize, I value the advice of those with more experiance than me. Else I would be listening the “bro science” you often here from the gym.

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a 20 week “blast” at 500mg a week would be very rough to recover from.

it would take aalot more than just 4 weeks of nolva to bounce back.
it is true tha tafter about week 12 you start to see unfavorable sides and they get worse as time goes on.

now what is a good idea and I have seen many do this is say a 12 week “blast” at around 500-700 a week and then followed by a “cruise” of about 250 a week

a person would be toatally shut down at that point so they would be relying on the exo test to supply them,basicly this is TRT.

then after a while you do another 12 weeks of the higher dose.

again the longer you are on the harder it is to recover.which is why I love the shorter higher dose cycles.

it may sound odd but I have found tha tif you do 20 weeks at 500mg a week you will get the same results with the lesser sides if you do 1000mg a week for 10 weeks.

why this is true I am still not really sure I just know it to be true( have been told this by many knowledgable sources)
some please elaborate on this for me :slight_smile:

Why no HCG during the cycle? You should pop in 200-250IU 2-3 times a week. Keep the juniors working throughout they cycle. That should help with the recovery time.

I would think of dropping the Test E @ around week 12 and switch over to Deca / Proviron combo right to week 20. You could even throw Winny in the mix from week 16 to 22 and then start PCT when you finnish that.

[quote]musclemass200 wrote:
Why no HCG during the cycle? You should pop in 200-250IU 2-3 times a week. Keep the juniors working throughout they cycle. That should help with the recovery time.

I would think of dropping the Test E @ around week 12 and switch over to Deca / Proviron combo right to week 20. You could even throw Winny in the mix from week 16 to 22 and then start PCT when you finnish that.

[/quote]

This is advice i would surely not follow. Please do explain your reasoning for this suggestion as its way off base compared to what anyone thats been around here for a while would suggest.

[quote]LillGuy001 wrote:

This is advice i would surely not follow. Please do explain your reasoning for this suggestion as its way off base compared to what anyone thats been around here for a while would suggest.

[/quote]

Well if he’s (err “his friend”) hell bent on a 20 week cycle.

Run the HCG 500 IU’s front loaded then 200 - 250 IU’s EoD. He’s the judge on the sweet spot there.

I know everyone here has a ton of man love for Test. I think it’s a great base and he can run it for all 20 weeks if he wanted. I feeling running the same steroid for longer than 12-14 weeks without adding anything to the mix will just have diminishing returns.

What’s so off base?

[quote]musclemass200 wrote:
LillGuy001 wrote:

This is advice i would surely not follow. Please do explain your reasoning for this suggestion as its way off base compared to what anyone thats been around here for a while would suggest.

Well if he’s (err “his friend”) hell bent on a 20 week cycle.

Run the HCG 500 IU’s front loaded then 200 - 250 IU’s EoD. He’s the judge on the sweet spot there.

I know everyone here has a ton of man love for Test. I think it’s a great base and he can run it for all 20 weeks if he wanted. I feeling running the same steroid for longer than 12-14 weeks without adding anything to the mix will just have diminishing returns.

What’s so off base?[/quote]

what about the suppression from 12 weeks of test and then adding deca with just proviron or replacing test with that combo for the remaining 8 weeks, deca (being nandrolone) which has been show to completely shut off your nuts when used?

coming off of that cycle sounds like a nagging biaatch if you ask me from my research…no experience but just research…

Gerdy

[quote]musclemass200 wrote:
Keep the juniors working throughout they cycle. That should help with the recovery time. [/quote]

What is ‘FALSE’ Trebek.

True… Deca and Trenbolone really shut you down hard. The HCG should shorten the rebound and that blaahh… unmotivated feeling.

So much hate for Deca. I thought it was great, way back in the day when I did it. I found that winstrol or primo tabs overlapping the last deca shot by 2-3 weeks then PCT worked best for me. Good luck finding primo tabs these days!

[quote]musclemass200 wrote:
Why no HCG during the cycle? You should pop in 200-250IU 2-3 times a week. Keep the juniors working throughout they cycle. That should help with the recovery time.

I would think of dropping the Test E @ around week 12 and switch over to Deca / Proviron combo right to week 20. You could even throw Winny in the mix from week 16 to 22 and then start PCT when you finnish that.

[/quote]
My two thoughts:

  1. He’d have a much better time reversing your protocol and ending with Test, not Deca.

  2. Your avatar is offensive

The person would be no more suppressed by test/deca over the 20 weeks, than by the test alone for 20 weeks.

The heightened prolactin may cause libido issues however, and caber would be good for that…

Nich - why are you recommending that instead of a 20 weeks cycle, that he blast and cruise?? Come on man.
If you suggested he ran 2 separate cycles of 10 weeks separated by a 4-6 week break using SERM, and ensuring recovery in that time, then fair enough… :wink:

Musclemass - I agree that it is seen as beneficial to change the drug after 12 weeks, which was said to act in a different way on the receptor, ensuring continued gains - but i really dont think that androgen receptors react differently to the drugs, it is the combo of the different hormones (estrogen, DHT, DHN, DHB, IGF, Prolactin, Progesterone etc etc etc) that result of the drugs effects, that determine the difference in results.
However, i have heard this protocol be used by some very educated BB’s and it is something i intend to do myself - albeit for different reasons to those above… more as a leap of faith when using long cycles.

Also, i think that a change of ester is as effective in keeping results coming… but if your friend did the full 20 weeks of test, but added another drug at the beginning of week 11, then that would keep the gains coming for sure… say 3-400mg of deca.
OR:

Wk1-10 Test E 500mg/wk
Wk1-10 Deca 300mg/wk
Wk11-20 Masteron P 350mg/wk
Wk11-20 Primobolan E 4-600mg/wk

ok ok… maybe a little different from the original cycle, maybe i got carried away (i just love designing cycles dont you?!)

but the rest of the post still stands! lol!

OP, can you explain a little as to your friends ‘level of advancement’? That is to say, is he a BB, is he on test full time? How old, how long training? what is his age, reasons for such a long cycle and how many cycles has he done? why are you posting and not he? ;p

JJ

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so you are saying that after the suppression of 10 weeks on 500mg of exo test, that other than the prolactin induced impotence, the HPTA will be further suppressed?

I dont agree.

Do you have any research to read about accelerated testicular atrophy? :wink: lol!

ahh’m just fucking with you! fair enough, but i seem to remember you telling me once that test is just as suppressive as deca, which is what many people dont realise… :S

JJ

I didnt make myself clear. sorry
I wasnt really suggesting the “blast and cruise” I said yes it is a good idea,but also you will be toatally dependant on exo test at that point because you will be toatally shut down at that point and not making any of your own. you will be actually putting yourself on TRT and yes coming off would be a bitch.

now yes he can split up the 20 weeks,like you said 2x10 week cycles with as much time as he needs in between to recover first.
but really why go 5 months with it anyways.
why is this a magic number.

why not go 10-12 weeks and then use the rest of the gear for a taper?

[quote] Brook wrote:
The person would be no more suppressed by test/deca over the 20 weeks, than by the test alone for 20 weeks.

The heightened prolactin may cause libido issues however, and caber would be good for that…

Nich - why are you recommending that instead of a 20 weeks cycle, that he blast and cruise?? Come on man.
If you suggested he ran 2 separate cycles of 10 weeks separated by a 4-6 week break using SERM, and ensuring recovery in that time, then fair enough… :wink:

Musclemass - I agree that it is seen as beneficial to change the drug after 12 weeks, which was said to act in a different way on the receptor, ensuring continued gains - but i really dont think that androgen receptors react differently to the drugs, it is the combo of the different hormones (estrogen, DHT, DHN, DHB, IGF, Prolactin, Progesterone etc etc etc) that result of the drugs effects, that determine the difference in results.
However, i have heard this protocol be used by some very educated BB’s and it is something i intend to do myself - albeit for different reasons to those above… more as a leap of faith when using long cycles.

Also, i think that a change of ester is as effective in keeping results coming… but if your friend did the full 20 weeks of test, but added another drug at the beginning of week 11, then that would keep the gains coming for sure… say 3-400mg of deca.
OR:

Wk1-10 Test E 500mg/wk
Wk1-10 Deca 300mg/wk
Wk11-20 Masteron P 350mg/wk
Wk11-20 Primobolan E 4-600mg/wk
JJ[/quote]

There are 3 reasons why Deca is more suppressive than testosterone preparations are, or at least show suppression on more levels:

  1. Deca is very long lived. Because of its hydrophobicity it has a tendency to diffuse very slowly out of the injection site into the plasma where the ester is removed. It takes over a month for nandrolone plasma levels to return to zero after a single injection of Deca, and bear in mind that one single 100mg injection causes a 100% suppression of testosterone for the same length of time.

  2. Deca has progestigenic properties. Progesterone, as well as synthetic progestins (Deca) act on the HPTA to reduce luteinizing hormone (LH) production. This is in addition to the ability of androgens in general to suppress pituitary LH production by interfering with the Gonadatropin Releasing Hormone (GnRH) signal sent from the hypothalamus to the pituitary, which drives LH secretion. Test and others do this as well, but I feel this should show that Deca does so as well on more levels.

  3. The presence of androgen receptors in the GnRH secreting neurons has been demonstrated in a number of studies. Deca binds much stronger to the AR than test and this disrupts GnRH pulse signaling through yet one more aspect of suppression.

The 3rd one is particularly interesting and yet goes unnoticed by most. In the long run I don’t think anyone would argue that Tren is more suppressive than testosterone or at least, given same ester length, requires a more aggressive or slightly different PCT plan.

I like your cycle suggestion, other than I would opt for Masteron Enanthate and drop the Primobolan as I find them quite similar with the Masteron having additional benefits while still possessing the others. So how about Masteron E (Drostanolone Enanthate) and Test E? Or Mast EQ (Don’t ever quote me on that EQ, just saying as some like it and showing that Test is not completely neccassary in every situation) Let me try a sample:
Wk 01-15 Test E 500mg/wk
Wk 01-10 Deca 300mg/wk
Wk 11-20 Mast E 300mg/wk
Wk 16-20 Test E 200mg/wk
Wk 16-22 Var 40mg/day

Wk 23-24 Proviron 50mg/day
Wk 25-26 Proviron 25mg/day
Wk 23-28 Nolvadex 20mg/day

1 Like

Thanks Beat, great info there. :slight_smile:

I was thinking mast E just to match the ester lengths but it isnt a commonly seen oil, unless brewed oneself… but you are right of course.

I like yours too, those last 10 weeks would really solidify the gains in the first 10-15… :slight_smile:

I am a propnant of long cycles(esp if u can afford a low dose of gh over a long period, what people dont understand is u dont need much to get resuls maybe 2-3.5ius aday) but I’ll tell u how I do it and how I find it works best. First 250mgs of tes is too low. Esp. with all the underdosed shit go with at least 300-500 mgs a week. My suggeation would be switch drugs every 6-8 weeks during ur cycle so u dont get used to any one drug. I know the problem with this is u cant walk into cvs and but gear. But if u have access this is the best way to go. If not then u can stay on the enenthate the whole time. If u have problems procuring things used fina.

You should start with ur highest dose say 750mgs for 2-3 week then reduce it to 500 for say 4-6 week, then u can reduce to 300 for the rest of the way. Then cahnge to the fina and if u have more enenthate stay on the 300mgs This is what has worked best for me and i have been at this since 1991. I have been in 2 different npc contests including the jr usa three times( two 3rds and a second), the jr nationalsond) once and the us(fifth) once, Not to mention all the regional shows. Before I went national I never lost a class. So i guess I know alot about getting reay for shows and anabolics. If u have any other ?'s pm me. I love to help younger guys, because i was there once and if it was not for guy helping me I would have progressed much slower.

[quote]joeblow wrote:
I am a propnant of long cycles(esp if u can afford a low dose of gh over a long period, what people dont understand is u dont need much to get resuls maybe 2-3.5ius aday) but I’ll tell u how I do it and how I find it works best. First 250mgs of tes is too low. Esp. with all the underdosed shit go with at least 300-500 mgs a week. My suggeation would be switch drugs every 6-8 weeks during ur cycle so u dont get used to any one drug. I know the problem with this is u cant walk into cvs and but gear. But if u have access this is the best way to go. If not then u can stay on the enenthate the whole time. If u have problems procuring things used fina.

You should start with ur highest dose say 750mgs for 2-3 week then reduce it to 500 for say 4-6 week, then u can reduce to 300 for the rest of the way. Then cahnge to the fina and if u have more enenthate stay on the 300mgs This is what has worked best for me and i have been at this since 1991. I have been in 2 different npc contests including the jr usa three times( two 3rds and a second), the jr nationalsond) once and the us(fifth) once, Not to mention all the regional shows. Before I went national I never lost a class. So i guess I know alot about getting reay for shows and anabolics. If u have any other ?'s pm me. I love to help younger guys, because i was there once and if it was not for guy helping me I would have progressed much slower.[/quote]

do you have any pics from you in the hayday?

DG