T Nation

2020 Presidential Race


Actually without the government you don’t have to sweat. The free market creates roads, bridges, toilets, electricity, all by itself.


Y’all are cracking me up.

Bridges used to be owned by private citizens / companies:

Some still are:

Roads have and continue to be privately owned:

The free market doesn’t create toilets…?

We saw a few months ago that the internet was developed by a private corporation while being funded by taxpayers. Lets call that 50/50. Same with a local favorite, the B&O railroad.

The telephone… Computers… Franklin began experimenting with electricity before he entered politics.

Maybe government(s) is better at managing some things, but the free market can and has created all this stuff by itself, lol.


Oh no doubt. The combination of the free market and government in the U.S. and other highly developed nations has proven superior to models without government. I would base this on the fact that we don’t have a highly developed nation with no government.

It was not my intention to pose the idea that government is responsible for all good things. It has tons of flaws. A mix of both has proven to be the most successful model. Figuring up the balance is up for endless debate. A system where no one pays taxes we have no basis for thinking it would be successful in modern times on the scale of where the U.S./Europe/etc. is.

As far as I know no significant amount of people are actively trying to start a government free society or area. If they do and it works out I’ll be the first to want to move!

By all by itself I meant without any work involved. It was tongue in cheek.


Libertarianism is a utopian ideology.


His sister has some set of pipes on her.



You mean, “It’s just not an option if you want to keep your property.”

I agree.

Ehh…I’m pretty sure that was due to the military occupation.


Of course you can keep much of your property and just sell the rest. You might not be able to fly your house into the mountains somewhere but it’s doable.

It seems like you find reasons to keep yourself from going to areas with less government. Like pretty much every taxation is theft abolish the government person ever.

Just because you don’t want to do it doesn’t mean it isn’t possible. You could report back here and let us know how much better things are. Family members can be easily convinced to do the same when they realize how much better it would be.


I like some of the other benefits to a civilized society too, like medicine.

I mean, taxes are a bitch, but then I’m also a short drive from a world class medical university, 5 trauma units, even a grocery store that gives out free antibiotics with a prescription.

It’s actually pretty freaking nice. That utopian island some people want to live on better have at least an airstrip, a plane or helo, and a medical team or there are going to be some dead libertarians stinking up the place pretty quickly.


And…the goalpost has moved(although it’s still not in a realistic place-there are also exit taxes, etc.).

There’s close to zero chance that you’re posting seriously. I can see how and why you pissed off pushharder years ago.

There’s very little, if any, place to go. On the other hand, almost all of the habitable land on earth has a nice combination of free market and government. Why not move there, or leave even a state or two?

I didn’t say it’s not possible. If a large-enough group of people went somewhere, committed a bit of genocide, put the survivors in cages, and defeated the United States’s intervention, I’m sure it could be done.


It’s not moving merely the idea that you have to leave everything or get no value for it is incorrect. You’re going to be getting free from the shackles of government!

I don’t see what push has to do with the topic but ok. He got banned when I wasn’t even posting here.

Now this is a defeatist way to look at things. You can go plenty of places on earth with close to zero or much more limited government than the USA.

Why would I need to move from something I already have? I also think plenty of places in the world exists that the US isn’t going to stop anarchists from going.

I don’t even think it’s a bad thing you’re choosing something that is better for you by staying. Nothing wrong with that. The costs that come with living here where it’s better for you (better since you stay than any alternative from your own cost benefit analysis) mean you have to play by some rules.

And I completely agree many of those rules should be changed or modified by society through political action.

ACism has always been a paper game. It’s followers talk all about the benefits but choose not to do anything that would get them away from government.


None of this has anything to do with government. The only thing this means is that there are more important things in life than who is making the rules.

You realize that Jews were allowed to leave Nazi Germany for quite some time, right?

Yep. They choose not to fight a war in which they would have no chance. Of course, I wrote myself in for many political offices when I voted for The Donald…so I’ve done exactly what the “followers” of other political philosophies do.


It has everything to do with the govt. American libertarians choose to be oppressed by the govt because they believe the oppression/value ratio of this society is better than it is anywhere else.

Which makes sense, because America is EASILY the global leader in that ratio from a libertarian mindset.

Imo this is the smartest thing about libertarianism. At it’s core, libertarianism could only exist in the real world if it was fully insulated from the existence of other countries.


It can also only work as long as there are unselfish people who are willing to sacrifice for the greater good. Libertarians would be the first to collaborate with the enemy. It’s an effeminate ideology.


It has nothing to do with the government. If the government started executing people with hazel eyes(my eldest daughter, wife, and I all have hazel eyes) and my family, friends, etc. developed no more desire to leave than they have now, I would be here waiting to be executed.

I didn’t realize that you consider yourself a libertarian.

Why? Why would a libertarian society be prohibited from defending itself?

You posted that in response to what I said to @H_factor. He claimed that libertarians do nothing to get themselves away from government. That was a stupid claim that is usually made by zombies. That would be like me saying that anti-Trumpers do nothing to get away from Trump’s rule, so they love that shit. Of course, the response to that would be, “Herp…elections…derp.” No different. Libertarians attempt to spread ideas, just like Democrats and Republicans attempt to convince voters to vote their way. Of course, according to Eleanor Roosevelt, that’s(discussing ideas) probably(almost certainly is) a losing political strategy(libertarians discuss ideas; political parties discuss people).


Then it seems you just don’t put value in whether or not you’re being oppressed by the govt.

I don’t. I was unable to successfully masterbate to the provided pic of George Washington and I wasn’t allowed in.

They wouldn’t be prohibited. They just wouldn’t reliably be able to win a fight against a country willing to do things like out tax for the sake of war, enact a draft, etc.

Sure they do. They intend to see him not get elected again.

Except per you,

So you don’t have a chance from the start. Which stops elections from being a viable option


Is it the same thing though? I mean if taxation is theft and you are being robbed on a daily,
monthly, yearly basis I would think the response would be different. I would think that one would move to a place with no robbery or less robbery.

I mean with Trump the thing is you can be done with it in 4 years. Staying doesn’t mean you love it. But I don’t think with Trump as President I’m being robbed on a daily basis or no end in sight to injustice.

I mean you’re sentenced to a lifetime of being robbed by staying here.


Good news for Team Trump:



Current no toss up is 248 GOP to 244 DNC. The battlegrounds that Trump needs to win are AZ and PA.

That puts him over the 270, but not by a whole pile.

Edit: Source. http://crystalball.centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/articles/the-2020-electoral-college-our-first-look/


Last I checked, there has never been a Jewish President. So perhaps this line of questioning should be reserved for Robert Francis O’Rourke?


I’ll say it again:

“MAGA” 2020!

(Note: Everyone he associates with may be in Jail/indicted…but I really think Trump Weasels himself into a second Term…)